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I've never used Rangers in my Eldar army and don't plan on doing so anytime soon but I am however planning on using them in my Apocalypse Tau army as auxiliaries so I'm just curious about a couple things

1. What the best uses for them are
2. What are the good tactics and strategies with them
3. Are there any nifty little tricks I can use with them
4. What are their strengths and weaknesses

I'd appreciate help

Sit them on an objective, and don't let any flamers get near them. They aren't very strong offensively, although Pathfinders are damn-near impossible to kill if they're in a bush.

Basically they are best utilized if you get them close enough that they can capture the objective but still be in cover so they are difficult to kill if you upgrade them to pathfinders. Plus by doing this because it happened to me once if you keep them sitting there without moving and such sometimes your opponent will forget about them and you will basically win

Careful with rangers. I cannot in good faith recomend pathfinders...Ibought a box thought they'd be hot gak too- till I put them on the table, opened fire and killed maybe 1 or 2 enemy guys- with 120 points of eldar! Sniper rifles suck in this game, and rangers have aweful damage to cost.

You can shoot down a slaaneshi demon prince with a round of bladestorming dire avengers. T5 3+ is very "scratchable". Taking 240 points of units that don't kill much and are essentially lash bait will not win you games.

These days I take my guardian defenders over rangers if I need another troop choice for some reason (not very often)! The heavy weapon can actually support things, and if something wanders close to then their catapults do far more damage than long rifles!

If you want to beat a lash list, taking pathfinders is actually making it harder on yourself.

At the end of the day though- your friend isn't being very sporting- taking an hq and army specifically tailored to waste foot sloggers- against a new player who doesn't have many tanks.

I'd recommend you start buying waveserpents. They are the bread and butter of strong eldar lists at nearly every point level.

a bit of mathhammer. I know many people don't believe in math hammer, but this was post fact mathhammer. After my Pathfinders massively dissapointed me in every game I played them in running the numbers showed that my expirence wasn't due to "luck" they really just don't have enough punch for the points you pay for them. The fact that hold up like a wet paper bag to assault and anything with fire just makes them a liability in many respects. Guardian Jetbikes however... I love. About the same price with a warlock, highly mobile, and can take heavy weapons (shuri cannon, a singing spear and or a heavy flamer)

Anyway here is a straight up 120 point v 120 point comparision between 5 Rangers with the pathfinder upgrade and 10 Dire Avengers (no exarch) showing average unsaved wounds per shooting phase with and without doom support, against Marines or the Demon Prince IN THE OPEN. You'll note that the pathfinders are sourly outshone by the Dire Avengers Across the board. Once you add in an exarch and bladestrom it gets even worse, and if the marines are getting a 4+ cover save against the ap1 and rending from the pathfinders... it goes even further down hill.



Yes Pathfinders have significantly more range than Dire Avengers, but to borrow the term from MMOs, successful Eldar builds are all about Spike damage. Most Eldar lists win by using their mobility to apply impressive amounts of force to smash through an enemy flank, then relocate to strike again. Non wraithwall eldar just lack the defense to win a slug fest against MEQ armies. Taking advantage of spike damage (Dire Avenger Exarch and bladestorm increaseing damage output by 50% is huge for that) is how Eldar lists win.

I use a small unit of bikes designed purely for dakka in my small point games and they do wonderfully 3 bikers with a shuri cannon, and a warlock with a singing spear and destructor. Cruise over to infantry and unload all 2 tl shuri pults, a cannon, and a heavy flamer into their face, or go after a tank with the spear + cannon. Tons of short range fire power, and the mobility to deliver it. The goal being to hit 1 enemy squad with 2 of mine! (usually my bikes and storm guardians in a wave serpent... soo much fire template goodness)

akaean wrote:Careful with rangers. I cannot in good faith recomend pathfinders...Ibought a box thought they'd be hot gak too- till I put them on the table, opened fire and killed maybe 1 or 2 enemy guys- with 120 points of eldar! Sniper rifles suck in this game, and rangers have aweful damage to cost.

You can shoot down a slaaneshi demon prince with a round of bladestorming dire avengers. T5 3+ is very "scratchable". Taking 240 points of units that don't kill much and are essentially lash bait will not win you games.

These days I take my guardian defenders over rangers if I need another troop choice for some reason (not very often)! The heavy weapon can actually support things, and if something wanders close to then their catapults do far more damage than long rifles!

If you want to beat a lash list, taking pathfinders is actually making it harder on yourself.

At the end of the day though- your friend isn't being very sporting- taking an hq and army specifically tailored to waste foot sloggers- against a new player who doesn't have many tanks.

I'd recommend you start buying waveserpents. They are the bread and butter of strong eldar lists at nearly every point level.

a bit of mathhammer. I know many people don't believe in math hammer, but this was post fact mathhammer. After my Pathfinders massively dissapointed me in every game I played them in running the numbers showed that my expirence wasn't due to "luck" they really just don't have enough punch for the points you pay for them. The fact that hold up like a wet paper bag to assault and anything with fire just makes them a liability in many respects. Guardian Jetbikes however... I love. About the same price with a warlock, highly mobile, and can take heavy weapons (shuri cannon, a singing spear and or a heavy flamer)

Anyway here is a straight up 120 point v 120 point comparision between 5 Rangers with the pathfinder upgrade and 10 Dire Avengers (no exarch) showing average unsaved wounds per shooting phase with and without doom support, against Marines or the Demon Prince IN THE OPEN. You'll note that the pathfinders are sourly outshone by the Dire Avengers Across the board. Once you add in an exarch and bladestrom it gets even worse, and if the marines are getting a 4+ cover save against the ap1 and rending from the pathfinders... it goes even further down hill.



Yes Pathfinders have significantly more range than Dire Avengers, but to borrow the term from MMOs, successful Eldar builds are all about Spike damage. Most Eldar lists win by using their mobility to apply impressive amounts of force to smash through an enemy flank, then relocate to strike again. Non wraithwall eldar just lack the defense to win a slug fest against MEQ armies. Taking advantage of spike damage (Dire Avenger Exarch and bladestorm increaseing damage output by 50% is huge for that) is how Eldar lists win.

I use a small unit of bikes designed purely for dakka in my small point games and they do wonderfully 3 bikers with a shuri cannon, and a warlock with a singing spear and destructor. Cruise over to infantry and unload all 2 tl shuri pults, a cannon, and a heavy flamer into their face, or go after a tank with the spear + cannon. Tons of short range fire power, and the mobility to deliver it. The goal being to hit 1 enemy squad with 2 of mine! (usually my bikes and storm guardians in a wave serpent... soo much fire template goodness)

Please re-read the OP, these aren't for a Eldar army. I appreciate the information on them even though I personally don't use math hammer.

blah, sorry about that, I really just copy and pasted my Ranger talk from another thread (I'll let you guess what that was about).

But it really doesn't matter. Pathfinders wouldn't be any better in a tau list. You'd seriously be better off with Kroot, who get the special forest rule, and Bolters, which are IMO better then Long Rifles.

You could have them. But they really wouldn't help you.

DarkHound wrote:Sit them on an objective, and don't let any flamers get near them. They aren't very strong offensively, although Pathfinders are damn-near impossible to kill if they're in a bush.

Pathfinders are annoying to face, I had one guy get a really lucky turn of shooting in and wiped out 7 Wolf Guard Terminators with AP2 shots. Yes 7!!!!

Suffice to say, I dropped a template on them next turn.

akaean wrote:blah, sorry about that, I really just copy and pasted my Ranger talk from another thread (I'll let you guess what that was about).

But it really doesn't matter. Pathfinders wouldn't be any better in a tau list. You'd seriously be better off with Kroot, who get the special forest rule, and Bolters, which are IMO better then Long Rifles.

You could have them. But they really wouldn't help you.

I'm not really taking them for a tactical advantage, I'm taking them because I enjoy converting models to fit into my Apocalypse army as auxiliaries and from the Eldar the Rangers best fit the fluff I have as to why Eldar would be an auxiliary for the Tau as well as the model I have planned. But that being said I don't want to take a unit and not use them in the best way, my Eldar army is Saim-hann so I've never used them before.

This topic is confusing me.

So you are playing tau and using the rules for eldar rangers? :-/

No, I'm playing a Tau army that has a unit of Eldar Rangers in it as auxiliaries.

1. What the best uses for them are
2. What are the good tactics and strategies with them
3. Are there any nifty little tricks I can use with them
4. What are their strengths and weaknesses

Take a 5 men Pathfinder unit or two. Their rending shots are really annoying.
Stick them onto an objective or let them infiltrate.
They can keep enemy infiltrators away from your front ranks.
Cover ignoring weapons can take them down easily.
This is the reason why I do not take them in 5th ed.

So really, you're saying "I've never used them, but I am going to use them in my Tau army anyway". Ok, well, they're worse at shooting per cost than every single model in the Tau army, including Kroot. They're also expensive even at a min-sized unit, you're costing yourself at least 2 crisis suits for every 5 pathfinders you take.

Secret to using them? Deploy them in cover, in objective range, never move. If your opponent has any kind of deep striking flamers (like obliterators), you may want to reserve them and bring them in on T3, into cover, near an objective, just to minimize the chance of any kind of flamer getting near them.

If they get flamed or assaulted, you just lost a lot of points worth of fancy elves. There are no ifs, no buts, you lost. They're gone. Equal points worth of Ratlings will take them out in CC.

I wouldn't take them in a foot eldar army. I wouldn't take them in any eldar army. I definitely wouldn't take them in a tau army, which has better shooting than eldar. I hope you REALLY like their fluff, I hope you write short stories about them, because chances are when you use them a few times, fluff will be the only good memory you have of them.

TehScat wrote:So really, you're saying "I've never used them, but I am going to use them in my Tau army anyway". Ok, well, they're worse at shooting per cost than every single model in the Tau army, including Kroot. They're also expensive even at a min-sized unit, you're costing yourself at least 2 crisis suits for every 5 pathfinders you take.

Except for the fact that it's for Apocalypse games and so I will have every crisis suit I need as well as every other unit I need.

Secret to using them? Deploy them in cover, in objective range, never move. If your opponent has any kind of deep striking flamers (like obliterators), you may want to reserve them and bring them in on T3, into cover, near an objective, just to minimize the chance of any kind of flamer getting near them.

Thank you, this was usefull and something that would actually help me.

If they get flamed or assaulted, you just lost a lot of points worth of fancy elves. There are no ifs, no buts, you lost. They're gone. Equal points worth of Ratlings will take them out in CC.

It's funny, you're telling me a unit that isn't cc oriented and obviously dosen't have any resistance that would help against flamers is going to be killed in both those situations. It's almost as if you think I have no common sense.

I wouldn't take them in a foot eldar army. I wouldn't take them in any eldar army. I definitely wouldn't take them in a tau army, which has better shooting than eldar. I hope you REALLY like their fluff, I hope you write short stories about them, because chances are when you use them a few times, fluff will be the only good memory you have of them.

Well it's obvious what you would and would not do but I am more optimistic and I don't look at things with such a biased opinion. Others have said they can be usefull so who am I to say whose right and whose wrong, and I also happen to be of the opinion that since there is absolutly no way you can know every situation of every game that your assesment of what use I'll get from them is wrong.

I appreciate the actual help you provided but in the future I suggest you provide it with a less biased tone and leave it to the person asking for advice to determine somethings usefullness. Also, don't talk to people as if they've never played a game.

hahaha. Pwned.

Eldar rangers are... okay. They are great Vs MC's. they aren't anti-vehicle, which usually turns people off to them.

Tehscat is right. Anything with flamers or close combat skill will kill them. Though... if you are honestly letting them get that close you are doing it wrong.

In a tau army... I don't know. Aren't tau supposed to be mobile if they want a chance to win? that's what I thought the tactic was.

Also, don't talk to people as if they've never played a game.

well, this information is not set in stone, but it was condescending and rude you are right

Regarding my crisis suit vs ranger trade-off, I mean purely in respect to points. You're only limited by points and models, not FoC, so I can think of no reason you would want to take a weak foreign troops choice over another shas'el with bodyguards.

Shas'el with plasma rifle, missile pod, multi tracker, 2 bodyguards, both with plasma rifles and missile pods, target arrays and HW multi trackers is 251 points. 3 crisis suits (elite version) with TL missile pods and targetting arrays are 159 points. These are your Tau power units, flexible, accurate, lots of firepower. Broadsides come in too, but they're not competing as directly with rangers.

5 pathfinders are 120 points. These guys are so bad, even eldar players don't like them, and ironically in their fluff, actual eldar don't like them a whole lot either. They shoot 5 times, lucky if 4 hit, then go 4+ for maybe 2 wounds. If they rend, sweet, but you're still going against a cover save. And at 24 points per model, they're probably not killing something worth more than them.

Imbad wrote:leave it to the person asking for advice to determine somethings usefullness

Ok boss, I thought the idea of asking for advice was to have others impart their experience to you so that you don't need to make all of their mistakes and discoveries yourself. You said quite clearly that you've never played with rangers, then you bite my head off for assuming you've never played. Yes, I'm being condescending, but its hard to speak to someone as an equal when they're fielding pathfinders in a tau army, especially in apoc where the number of crisis and broadside suits on the table is limited only by available models and points limits.

So that you may better determine their usefulness for yourself, I will address your points from the OP concisely.

Imbad wrote:1. What the best uses for them are
2. What are the good tactics and strategies with them
3. Are there any nifty little tricks I can use with them
4. What are their strengths and weaknesses

1. Camping objectives that are in or near cover, such that they will never be approached, but still able to shoot the enemy. This generally means denying your flank to the opponent so that flamers and assault troops can't reach the pathfinders. For this, a screen of kroot with broadsides to hit transports would suffice - defensive, long range, and they can stop everything except deep strikers reaching the objective.

2. Just make sure they're within 36" of where the fighting is bound to be - they're too expensive to NOT shoot with, so you better be sure they'll have range without needing to leave their forest or building. Take them in minimum sized squads, to reduce their threat index and cost investment.

3. Monstrous Creatures without cover/invul saves are your best target, given you always wound on a 4+ and rend on 5's, but these are few and far between, especially not already in assault. Any ICs that end up without a squad, or perhaps small squads with ICs in them to drop their last few ablative wounds, before turning the IC into soup with a railgun or plasma rifle. With 5 shots, you can rely on one rending wound most of the time, but don't count on scoring two.

4. Their strengths is their survivability against standard shooting, and the fact that they are scoring. This makes them effective objective campers against many lists. Their weaknesses include being massively overpriced, with pathetic guns (even with 5+ rending), low range given they cannot effectively move (can't leave cover, stay with objective, heavy weapons), and if they lose their cover save from special weapons, templates or assault, then they're T3 5+ save elves that cost almost as much as a terminator.

I cannot recommend that you do not take these any more than I already have. As I said, they're literally a joke among Eldar players, people who put them in (competitive) lists in the army list forum are generally ridiculed and corrected. The only reason you would ever take them is for objective camping, and apoc has some use for them here, but it would be far cheaper to throw some actual Tau troops (especially Kroot) in there, go to ground and forget about them. 6 pathfinders are equal to a 3 man Crisis team, which are tough, maneuverable and very shooty.

Do some experimenting with them. Take 5 pathfinders (or proxy models), put them in cover, give them first turn. Then, 36" away, take an equal cost squad of 10 Storm Guardians, double flamers, warlock with embolden (or conceal, if you prefer) and have them run towards the pathfinders in the open, being shot every turn. See who wins. Put 10 Dire Avengers, no exarch, into cover 18" from 5 pathfinders in cover, let them shoot it out. Equal costs again.

These are ideal situations for the pathfinders to excel 1v1. I'm not completely savvy on Tau troops, but I'm sure you could do some proxy battles with Pathfinders vs Tau units just as well, if every 5 pathfinders is 120 points. Given their massive advantage (cover) and ideal conditions (shooting first, range, etc) see who wins.

I'll give you a hint, if the pathfinders don't pin either of the two squads above, they lose horribly, yes, even the shoot out with the dire avengers in cover... Good luck! Tell me how you go!

I run 2 5 Strong Pathfinders add 2 Farseers with Doom, Guide and Forture....in cover...killer fire base....backed by Dragons and Avengers....it's sick!

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Eldar rangers are... okay. They are great Vs MC's. they aren't anti-vehicle, which usually turns people off to them.

Tehscat is right. Anything with flamers or close combat skill will kill them. Though... if you are honestly letting them get that close you are doing it wrong.

I won't have to worry about vehicles as I have plenty of Railguns in my army as well as other anti-tank, with Rangers being good against MCs that will give me a little more freedom in target priority though I'm still not going to depend on them, and you're right about if you're letting them get that close at least in a partial sense. It all depends on how you choose to use them. I run a large number of Kroot in my armies and Kroot have about 4-5 differant uses to choose from, 3 prominant ones are grabbing objectives via outflanking, anti infiltration and kroot wrapping my backfield units for protection against outflankers and deepstriking units.

Now in Apocalypse I'm taking other units from other armies to fill some of these roles (even if they're more expensive etc). Now I've got units to bubble warp my backfield units against Outflankers/DS which means I don't need Kroot for that, and if I use 2 units of 5 Pathfinders in cover as anti infiltration squads then that frees up my Kroot squads to Outflank my opponent and either claim backfield objectives or assault backfield units. Even if they don't kill the unit (Kroot are VERY squishy ) they'll keep it from shooting my other units.

Or if need be I can reverse the roles, say I'm playing against a cc horde army like Tyranids, his goal will be to get his cc units into my shooty (and VERY VERY squishy) Tau units as quick as possible. So I'll keep my Kroot squads in my deployment as AI and additional bubble wrap (allowing my Tau to move away from harm) while my Rangers outflank for backfield objectives and it will keep them out of the path of cc units heading to my side of the board so I can target MCs that are either sitting in the backfield (Tyranofex) or coming my way.

And I'm not really going to depend on the Rangers to win me any games they have a role they can fill and are just something extra I want to add in.

In a tau army... I don't know. Aren't tau supposed to be mobile if they want a chance to win? that's what I thought the tactic was.

Mhm Tau have a great degree of mobility but that dosen't mean every unit has to constantly be moving or even that they can such as Broadsides. Even though a unit may not be the best at what it does compared to something else that dosen't mean that it has no use. The usefullness of something is determined by the person using it.

I would avoid them simply on the basis that there is already a tau unit called pathfinders and it could get mighty confusing. Maybe you could just convert them into counts-as pathfinders?

TehScat wrote:Regarding my crisis suit vs ranger trade-off, I mean purely in respect to points. You're only limited by points and models, not FoC, so I can think of no reason you would want to take a weak foreign troops choice over another shas'el with bodyguards.

Thank you for the consideration but I promise you I have everything I need in the army with little to no sacrifices in terms of my Tau. Especially since I have 3k points of Tau and I'm adding units from other codices to get to 4k.

Shas'el with plasma rifle, missile pod, multi tracker, 2 bodyguards, both with plasma rifles and missile pods, target arrays and HW multi trackers is 251 points. 3 crisis suits (elite version) with TL missile pods and targetting arrays are 159 points. These are your Tau power units, flexible, accurate, lots of firepower. Broadsides come in too, but they're not competing as directly with rangers.

And neither are my 5 units of Crisis suits, they're not compeating for points and they aren't compeating in use since I plan on using them for 2 completly differant purposes.

5 pathfinders are 120 points. These guys are so bad, even eldar players don't like them, and ironically in their fluff, actual eldar don't like them a whole lot either. They shoot 5 times, lucky if 4 hit, then go 4+ for maybe 2 wounds. If they rend, sweet, but you're still going against a cover save. And at 24 points per model, they're probably not killing something worth more than them.

Relativly I'm sure they're not the best unit out there especially when compared to units like Crisis suits and Broadsides (which is kind of an unfare comparrison since all 3 units have differant purposes). But that dosen't mean they are useless it just means that there are Eldar players who prefer not to use them because there are better choices who can do the job better and cheaper. But those are scenarios where they absolutly need to take the best units they can to win, this is a case where I already have everything I need to win and am just adding on a little extra here and there for fluff and conversion reasons. Yeah the Rangers probably won't win me many games (and I'm not depending on them to) but I probably won't lose every game because of them and they can still be of use.

Imbad wrote:

leave it to the person asking for advice to determine somethings usefullness

Ok boss, I thought the idea of asking for advice was to have others impart their experience to you so that you don't need to make all of their mistakes and discoveries yourself. You said quite clearly that you've never played with rangers, then you bite my head off for assuming you've never played. Yes, I'm being condescending, but its hard to speak to someone as an equal when they're fielding pathfinders in a tau army, especially in apoc where the number of crisis and broadside suits on the table is limited only by available models and points limits.

I do appreciate the advice you gave that actually concerned the use of the Rangers and you are allowed to have an opinion on the units usefullness. However if someone is asking for advice on how to use a unit and you don't think they should that does not give you any excuse to talk down to them or treat them as if they've never played a game. Especially if you're talking down to them because you assumed they're sacrificing Broadsides and Crisis suits in order to take Rangers even though there was absolutly nothing said to indicate this.

And without knowing how I intend to use them or knowing what my army list already looks like you can determine how usefull they are to you (which is obviously not very usefull ) but you can't determine how usefull they'll be to me. And I hope that your statement about being "equals" isn't an indication of how you treat everyone who does something you disagree with because if you think everyone who has a differant opinion then you is lower then you in some sense then you need to change your perspective on things, no offence.

So that you may better determine their usefulness for yourself, I will address your points from the OP concisely.

Imbad wrote:1. What the best uses for them are
2. What are the good tactics and strategies with them
3. Are there any nifty little tricks I can use with them
4. What are their strengths and weaknesses

1. Camping objectives that are in or near cover, such that they will never be approached, but still able to shoot the enemy. This generally means denying your flank to the opponent so that flamers and assault troops can't reach the pathfinders. For this, a screen of kroot with broadsides to hit transports would suffice - defensive, long range, and they can stop everything except deep strikers reaching the objective.

2. Just make sure they're within 36" of where the fighting is bound to be - they're too expensive to NOT shoot with, so you better be sure they'll have range without needing to leave their forest or building. Take them in minimum sized squads, to reduce their threat index and cost investment.

3. Monstrous Creatures without cover/invul saves are your best target, given you always wound on a 4+ and rend on 5's, but these are few and far between, especially not already in assault. Any ICs that end up without a squad, or perhaps small squads with ICs in them to drop their last few ablative wounds, before turning the IC into soup with a railgun or plasma rifle. With 5 shots, you can rely on one rending wound most of the time, but don't count on scoring two.

4. Their strengths is their survivability against standard shooting, and the fact that they are scoring. This makes them effective objective campers against many lists. Their weaknesses include being massively overpriced, with pathetic guns (even with 5+ rending), low range given they cannot effectively move (can't leave cover, stay with objective, heavy weapons), and if they lose their cover save from special weapons, templates or assault, then they're T3 5+ save elves that cost almost as much as a terminator.

Thank you this is all helpfull.

1.Besides the Kroot (I have other squads to protect my flanks) this is exactly the use I had intended for them.

2. I don't think I'll have a problem placing them to where they'll have range on something

3. Then they'll be of good use against Tyranid armies I play in addition to my Railguns.

4. Even if the worse case happens and they're assaulted they've still served a purpose as a unit assaulting or firing on them won't be assaulting or firing on my other units.

I cannot recommend that you do not take these any more than I already have. As I said, they're literally a joke among Eldar players, people who put them in (competitive) lists in the army list forum are generally ridiculed and corrected. The only reason you would ever take them is for objective camping, and apoc has some use for them here, but it would be far cheaper to throw some actual Tau troops (especially Kroot) in there, go to ground and forget about them. 6 pathfinders are equal to a 3 man Crisis team, which are tough, maneuverable and very shooty.

Thank you but I've played Tau since the army came out so I'm well aware of the capabilities of the armies units. And their optimal use may be as objective campers (which I intend to use them as) but I am sure that is not their only use.

Do some experimenting with them. Take 5 pathfinders (or proxy models), put them in cover, give them first turn. Then, 36" away, take an equal cost squad of 10 Storm Guardians, double flamers, warlock with embolden (or conceal, if you prefer) and have them run towards the pathfinders in the open, being shot every turn. See who wins. Put 10 Dire Avengers, no exarch, into cover 18" from 5 pathfinders in cover, let them shoot it out. Equal costs again.

These are ideal situations for the pathfinders to excel 1v1. I'm not completely savvy on Tau troops, but I'm sure you could do some proxy battles with Pathfinders vs Tau units just as well, if every 5 pathfinders is 120 points. Given their massive advantage (cover) and ideal conditions (shooting first, range, etc) see who wins.

I'll give you a hint, if the pathfinders don't pin either of the two squads above, they lose horribly, yes, even the shoot out with the dire avengers in cover... Good luck! Tell me how you go!

To be honest I don't see where you're going with these suggestions? if you're trying to "prove" that Dire Avengers and Fire Warriors are going to out shoot Rangers I can tell you right now I know they do since I own both units, as I've said I own both Eldar and Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

vikings vs mafia wrote:I would avoid them simply on the basis that there is already a tau unit called pathfinders and it could get mighty confusing. Maybe you could just convert them into counts-as pathfinders?

Except I don't have to call the Eldar unit Pathfinders it's the same idea as taking a SM character for a successor chapter and giving him a differant name and representing him with a differant model.

Well IMHO, pathfinders are the greatest snipers in the game (barring vindicare maybe). I've always had great luck with them, whether it be sniping down a Space Wolves termy runepriest, sniping a carnifex which was about to charge or even just being a distraction for enemy forces.

I think all the advice that can be said has been said. Deploy in cover and fire. I don't usually infiltrate unless its into cover and my other troops can reach it quickly.

As you are playing an Apoc game though, it could be interesting to infiltrate them into an objective in no man's land. I think you would need supporting troops able to reach them quickly though, if you wanted them to survive.

5 pathfinders are 120 points. These guys are so bad, even eldar players don't like them, and ironically in their fluff, actual eldar don't like them a whole lot either. They shoot 5 times, lucky if 4 hit, then go 4+ for maybe 2 wounds. If they rend, sweet, but you're still going against a cover save. And at 24 points per model, they're probably not killing something worth more than them.

You realize they are AP one on the roll to hit. How much is 5 terminators? Isn't it... i don't know... 200 points. And what do you get? tell me. A 2+ armor save and a powerfist, or a 3++ save on top of your 2+ and a thundershammer.

Pathfinders get a 2+ coversave, and don't need a landraider to be effective...

Now, what i don't understand is this idea of "making your points back"... not because it doesn't make sense... but because of how people are defining it.

A Tyranid venomthrope, a farseer with fortune, the fateweaver, a rhino will never make their points back. they aren't meant to kill everything. They are meant to do their job, whatever it may be. A farseer with fortune is 85 points. 2 terminators is less points. the farseer must be worthless because it can't beat the terminators.

This idea of "making your points back" died when Victory points were no longer used. And is still a pretty dumb way of ranking your models...

Rangers as a whole are easy to use. Upgrade to pathfinders, and stick in cover hopefully on multiple levels in case of ignore cover templates, and shoot at small groups of the enemy. The AP 1 on 5 and 6 to hit means that they can do damage to elite units, if your really lucky even a vehicle or two. For apoc, I would run in groups of 10 at least. As has been said everything that can ignore cover saves just makes them go poof.

Rangers/pathfinders are great when backed up by a doom seer. Truthfully on their own they are too hit or miss. Figure it this way: 10 pathfinders shoot, 7 hit, 4 wound. Of that a little over 1/3 of them are AP 2 or 1. Not bad but not really that impressive for 240 points. For 240, I would rather see a unit of Striking Scorpions or Banshees to give you that one counter attacking unit. Or for sheer firepower give me the squad of dark reapers with a tricked out exarch. For the amount of points you are sticking into the pathfinders, take 2 or 3 sniper drone teams.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Well IMHO, pathfinders are the greatest snipers in the game (barring vindicare maybe). I've always had great luck with them, whether it be sniping down a Space Wolves termy runepriest, sniping a carnifex which was about to charge or even just being a distraction for enemy forces.

I think all the advice that can be said has been said. Deploy in cover and fire. I don't usually infiltrate unless its into cover and my other troops can reach it quickly.

As you are playing an Apoc game though, it could be interesting to infiltrate them into an objective in no man's land. I think you would need supporting troops able to reach them quickly though, if you wanted them to survive.

Depending on the scenario or game their survival isn't high on my list I mean if it develops during a game that keeping them alive is imperative to me winning then yes I'll make it a priority.


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wisdomseyes1 wrote:

5 pathfinders are 120 points. These guys are so bad, even eldar players don't like them, and ironically in their fluff, actual eldar don't like them a whole lot either. They shoot 5 times, lucky if 4 hit, then go 4+ for maybe 2 wounds. If they rend, sweet, but you're still going against a cover save. And at 24 points per model, they're probably not killing something worth more than them.

You realize they are AP one on the roll to hit. How much is 5 terminators? Isn't it... i don't know... 200 points. And what do you get? tell me. A 2+ armor save and a powerfist, or a 3++ save on top of your 2+ and a thundershammer.

Pathfinders get a 2+ coversave, and don't need a landraider to be effective...

Now, what i don't understand is this idea of "making your points back"... not because it doesn't make sense... but because of how people are defining it.

A Tyranid venomthrope, a farseer with fortune, the fateweaver, a rhino will never make their points back. they aren't meant to kill everything. They are meant to do their job, whatever it may be. A farseer with fortune is 85 points. 2 terminators is less points. the farseer must be worthless because it can't beat the terminators.

This idea of "making your points back" died when Victory points were no longer used. And is still a pretty dumb way of ranking your models...

See as a Tau player who uses alot of Kroot I've learned the value of sacrificing certain units if need be. Now this dosen't mean I'm going to just sacrifice the unit first chance I get, if I can I'm going to put them on an objective with cover and snipe at the enemy. But if there is an enemy unit that's shooting at my Rangers then that's one less unit shooting at my Tau, and if there is a unit assaulting my rangers that's one less unit assaulting my Tau. That alone will "make their points back" in my opinion.


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doubled wrote:Rangers as a whole are easy to use. Upgrade to pathfinders, and stick in cover hopefully on multiple levels in case of ignore cover templates, and shoot at small groups of the enemy. The AP 1 on 5 and 6 to hit means that they can do damage to elite units, if your really lucky even a vehicle or two. For apoc, I would run in groups of 10 at least. As has been said everything that can ignore cover saves just makes them go poof.

So should I do 5 or 10?


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DAaddict wrote:Rangers/pathfinders are great when backed up by a doom seer. Truthfully on their own they are too hit or miss. Figure it this way: 10 pathfinders shoot, 7 hit, 4 wound. Of that a little over 1/3 of them are AP 2 or 1. Not bad but not really that impressive for 240 points. For 240, I would rather see a unit of Striking Scorpions or Banshees to give you that one counter attacking unit. Or for sheer firepower give me the squad of dark reapers with a tricked out exarch. For the amount of points you are sticking into the pathfinders, take 2 or 3 sniper drone teams.

Sorry but I don't think you get it lol I'm taking Eldar Rangers plain and simple. I want to take them, I'm not going to swap them out for something else and I don't need to swap them out for something else. I'm not sacrificing anything from my Tau to have them in points so the only disadvantage in having them is that some units do their job better. That's fine and all that but I don't want the units that do it better (in this case Sniper Drones) and I don't need the units that do it better because I already have them.

So just as a future request to anyone in the thread, please don't suggest I take "X" unit instead of Rangers for any reason. It won't do any good and won't add anything to the discussion, thanks

In that case hunker down in terrain and target high value high toughness targets only. MC or terminator before anything else. They will kill high value targets quite well albeit slowly with no doom seer.
If given the choice, field pathfinders over rangers anyday.
25% cost increase for 100% increase in lethality. Plus a 25% increase in survivability. Sorry though if someone gets into HTH or flamer range of them, they are toast. So keep them on the periphery of your army or base them in the very center of an objective based game.

Eh I'm used to units being toast in my Tau army from cc well that's if things go wrong and he's able to get into cc

And like I said if the unit is shooting or assaulting the Rangers/Pathfinders then they aren't shooting or assaulting my Tau lol Thanks for the input

Ok then!

If you don't care that Rangers are only very rarely going to kill things

and you accept that you would be better off tactically with just adding a kroot squad... Then I guess me and tehscat's experience and disapointment in our Ranger squads is lost on you.

If you MUST take them (I will admit they have nice models)

Take them in units of 5. This keeps them as cheap as you can, and spreads them out in different locations so they don't all get gobbled up by templates or close combat at once.

Sit em in cover, on an objective and plink away. Cross your fingers and hope that the opponent wastes normal shooting on them and not your crisis suits.

Specifically, if you are using them with tau, use marker lights on the squad they shoot at. longl Rifles are pinning, so if you can use the Marker lights to lower that leadership check, you can potentially pin a squad a turn- which *might* actually be worth it

akaean wrote:Ok then!

If you don't care that Rangers are only very rarely going to kill things

A unit can be of use even if it dosen't kill something every turn.

and you accept that you would be better off tactically with just adding a kroot squad...

This has been covered above.

Then I guess me and tehscat's experience and disapointment in our Ranger squads is lost on you.

So I'm supposed to listen to you and tehscat over everyone else who isn't dissapointed in them why? what would make your opinion of them more valid then anyone elses? your personal experience with them is going to be differant then everyone else so instead of choosing to believe one person over another I choose to find out for myself.

If you MUST take them (I will admit they have nice models)

I musten't have them, I don't need to have them. I want them plain and simple and again I covered this above. Also I won't be using the Ranger models though you're right they are nice models, to bad they aren't plastic

Take them in units of 5. This keeps them as cheap as you can, and spreads them out in different locations so they don't all get gobbled up by templates or close combat at once.

While I've already said points aren't an issue this does make sense to me simply based off of the units function. If they're best used by putting them in terrain then it makes sense that a smaller unit with a smaller foot print will be easier to get into the differant types of terrain depending on the table I'm playing vs a larger unit.

Sit em in cover, on an objective and plink away. Cross your fingers and hope that the opponent wastes normal shooting on them and not your crisis suits.

If he's able to shoot at my Crisis suits I've done something wrong.

Specifically, if you are using them with tau, use marker lights on the squad they shoot at. longl Rifles are pinning, so if you can use the Marker lights to lower that leadership check, you can potentially pin a squad a turn- which *might* actually be worth it

While I'm all for using non specific cross army rules/wargear (such as putting a Wolf Priest with the Saga of the Warrior Born into a unit of Khorne Berserkers and giving the prefered enemy against infantry) in Apocalypse the Markerlight isn't something that can be used like that it specifically says that Marker Light tokens can be expended by Tau (Fire Warriors, Vehicles and Battlesuits) and Vespid units and the later is only when they have a Strain Leader. So since Rangers aren't "Tau units" I can't use Marker Lights on them.

Thank you for your input though

I used to use a unit of Pathfinders (I always upgrade them). I found that while they were extremely hard to hurt, and only usually died when a flamer managed to get to them, they only usually killed a couple of guys a turn. They're good for picking off terminators, but for their cost they're not so good. They're mainly there to sit on objectives in cover and take pot shots in the hopes of helping out.

Imbad wrote:So I'm supposed to listen to you and tehscat over everyone else who isn't dissapointed in them why? what would make your opinion of them more valid then anyone elses? your personal experience with them is going to be differant then everyone else so instead of choosing to believe one person over another I choose to find out for myself.

Because, simply put, we're better. We've played more, we know more, we have a greater grasp of context and opportunity cost, we've been here longer and we've helped a lot more people.

Some people are going to say "yeah man that's GREAT you should totally do that" to anything that sounds cool. And pathfinders sound VERY COOL. First time I saw them, I even considered rolling Altaioc. It was between them and Iyanden, but I ended up with Saim Hann. Its because even though pathfinders and wraithguard are cool, they're not viable.

And yes, pathfinders CAN do well. They can go a whole game without dying, they can shoot down some amazing things if they roll well. Does that mean every kid with a "my pathfinders killed his entire termie squad!" story means you will do the same? No. Mathematically, they have a very low chance of performing even reasonably well. But with multiple opportunities to ignore armor, they rarely get punch above their weight and kill something awesome.

Imbad wrote: But those are scenarios where they absolutly need to take the best units they can to win, this is a case where I already have everything I need to win and am just adding on a little extra here and there for fluff and conversion reasons.

If you can win an apoc game with your 3k worth of Tau, against 4k of Tyranids and whatever else, then spend all 1000 extra points on pathfinders! Go nuts, you've got this in the BAG. I don't know what kind of Neanderthal you're playing against, but given your crisis suit loadouts don't match optimal setups, you're using sniper drones, and don't seem to believe that spending spare points on more GOOD Tau units is necessary... from what I can infer from your list, for you to be this confident, your opponent must be some kind of inbred, disabled chimpanzee.

Please post your list for my personal enjoyment.

Best of luck, tell us how you go. I've given all of the creative advice I can on pathfinder use, and you said it was useful, and I hope they synergise well and serve their purpose. I will say, one last time however, that they are the scum of the codex, and that I find it both humorous and a little depressing that you so strongly want to field them in a Tau army, and doing so at the cost of more battlesuits. No sarcasm, I sincerely hope you do well, and you tell us how you and the pathfinders performed.