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Hi Dakka, the title pretty much explains itself but anyway, I was wondering if any Imperial guard get respect from Space mairne.

Oh and are there ant situations where and Imperial guard commander would gain command for a force including sapce marines, the only incedent I can think of is the Macharian conquest and the Black crusades

Depends on the chapter.
SW respect anyone willing to fight for the Emperor.
Other chapters think the IG simply get in the way or are useless.
Most crusades under the command of a Warmaster have SM support because the SM have pledged to follow the commands of the Warmaster. Most Warmasters get to be Warmasters due to political maneuvering between all Imperial organisations, having an Sm chapter back you up is fairly decent support for becoming a Warmaster.
Other than that it's unlikely an SM chapter would be controlled by a IG commander. They don't even follow each other, during the 13th crusade they had to vote for a supreme commander of all astartes forces (Logan Grimnar incidentally though the DA and Relictors didn't follow him) who was then subordinate to the overall commander of the defense of Cadia.

I'm fairly sure Commisar Yarrick and Ursarkar Creed could tell pretty much any space marine ranked captain or below to go play in traffic.

some do

moonshine wrote:Hi Dakka, the title pretty much explains itself but anyway, I was wondering if any Imperial guard get respect from Space mairne.

As to your first question, of the major chapters, there are two chapters that give the most respect to the IG on a personal level; I.E. they actually like the humans in the Imperial Guard and will freely associate and converse with them when they are in battle together.
They are the Space Wolves and the Salamanders.

Space Marines NEVER take orders from anyone.

they take suggestions.



now, the 13th black crusade was a case of the Space Marines coming to help, and you can't help if you don't know where you are needed.

the Warmaster would tell them where he needed them and they would do it because it was nessacery, not because they had to obey him. they could have walked off at any time.



Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Cottonjaw wrote:I'm fairly sure Commisar Yarrick and Ursarkar Creed could tell pretty much any space marine ranked captain or below to go play in traffic.

I think not. Marines aren't anywhere in the Guard Chain of Command, so unless either was Warmaster, anything they "told" Marines would be considered a request, not an order. Also, Marine Captains are more equivalent to Guard Generals and Colonels, NOT Guard Captains.

As well, it's not like there are hard and fast rules for Guard ranking. For example, Imperial Combat doctrine states that ranking Guard Infantry>Ranking Guard Tank, so an Infantry Captain would generally be given overall command over a Tank Company General in most instances.

Marines pretty much cover the spectrum. The two chapters named are the most humanitarian. Ultras are also better than most at working alongside normal humans.

There is a scene in Warriors of Ultramar where Uriel Ventris is almost killed by a carnifex, but is saved by a lone guardsmen with a missile launcher. It's been a while since I read the book, but I seem to remember that he visits the guy in the hospital and even gives him one of his own purity seals. Ventris is a captain, so this is a fairly big deal. Some other chapters would have found it insulting to be saved by a mere human.

Then there are chapters at the other end of the spectrum, Marines Malevolent spring instantly to mind. While they seem to respect other marines, they have an arrogant streak and find normal humans (soldiers and civilians) to be useless and expendable. The most famous incident involving them happened during the third war for Armageddon. They were tasked with liberating a camp that had been overtaken by orks. They knew for a fact that there were thousands of hostages inside. So they just pounded it with artillery, killing nearly 1/3 of the hostages. These were considered acceptable losses. The captain in charge was later given a stern lecture by Salamanders chapter master Tu'shan, but basically responded with a shrug.

It all depends on the Chapter and the Guard unit in question.

The Ultramarines have stated, on many occasions, that PDF and Guard units are braver than they, for they fight for their homes, they fear the enemy and they are often under equipped.

Astartes cannot feel fear, they are bred for war, they know they will not lose.

Other Chapters see them as an irritant who should stand aside.

Other humans have the utmost respect from Marines, true heroes who they have fought alongside are given similar respect as any Battle Brother.

I think marines are conditioned to think that life should be lived in service to the Emperor and your death should reflect that, they find this easy as it is bred into them just as fear is bred out. I think alot of them disregard, unintentionaly for the most part, the sacrifices made by the guard. Not out of any malice or superiority, simply because they view the guardsmen to be doing no more than their duty demands, few space marines actively consider the fact that the guardsmen have extroadinary courage.

In summary; yes they get respect in the fact that they are a vital part of the imperiums forces and they serve the Emperor. On the other hand I think Marines like Ragnar Blackmane, who actively think about a guardsmans courage and determination and the relative courage of ordinary men and women, are comparitively rare.

For the templars, Yarrick and Helbrecht seem to have a mutual respect thing going on - they took off together to chase Ghazkull after Armageddon.

IG that fight and hold their ground usually get respect from the marines. There is some good examples of this in Helsreach...one of the Navy fighter wings in that book even decorate their fighters with the Templar cross (an honor that was bestowed upon them during a previous battle in which they fought alongside the Chapter).

I guess if that Guard somehow display courage beyond his duty. He would probably get respect by the marines seeing him doing the deed

Dont know about you guys, but where do marines get off thinking in anyway that they are better to "normal" humans?
They were normal humans once for goodeness sakes!

Humans respect marines because they grow up believing that they are angels of death. I doubt that the average guardsman knows that marines are created and not born.

Heck a normal guardsman is more important to the survival of the imperium, because they can make babies which will keep the species going and a marine cant.

IMHO the only thing that keeps Marines from being obsolete is that a stable plasma gun/pistol STC hasnt been found

They WERE normal humans. Once. Sort of. Except...

Space Marines accept only the most promising candidates, youths who would otherwise have gone on to become great heroes, leaders or warlords among their own people. They were human, but never normal. The mental conditioning aspect of induction interferes with memories of life before they joined the chapter, sometimes obscuring it completely. Moreover, whatever they were before, they are now physical gods and have been since early adulthood. They are the elect, their bodies literally made holy by the enactment of the Emperor's design upon them. They are removed from the concerns of normal people: wealth, family, pain, death: none of these have any hold on Astartes. They will live for centuries, enduring trials and hardships no normal human could master. They were human once, but they will never look back.

That is why only a few chapters retain emotional ties to humanity.

So what will earn the respect of a Space Marine? Deeds. Competence. Stolid belligerence in the face of the enemy. Steadfast obedience of the Emperor's will.

Well Exopheric by the quote your using it sounds to me that space marines are no longer humans at all. At what point does changing a human being so much convert that human into something else completely different.

What does it mean to be human? physical/mental perfection (Astartes) or all our flaws and uniqueness (IG)?

That is what I meant, they are pretty far removed from human. Marines share some human concerns, like duty, honor and glory, achievement. Social motives, basically. They can also have weaknesses like pride and wrath and psychological inflexibility, although in some situations common to Warhammer, those can be virtues. However they can slide into something much worse than human if their sense of self and purpose is undermined, or the conditioning breaks down.

Guard are obviously more human, and easier to relate to. I feel like when marines recognize a human, they do so in the sense of recognizing a kindred spirit rather than a prosaic "Hey, man, nice shot."

Im suprised Rynns world hasnt been mentioned of the Crimson Fists, I dont know about any other fluff surrounding them BUT:-

Pedro Cantor sent a portion of his forces to the Human capital, rather than dig in for a seige in the chapter fortress. And IIRC it was partly because he valued the people, as throughout the beginning of the book Cortez confronts him several times on the subject for trying to have a working relationship with the human populace.

Surely if the Chapter Master wants there to be respect between the people this makes me think this will transfer over to the IG? (back on topic eventually )

Dan

In the book Helsreach(not sure how canon) the Reclusiarch of the Black Templars declares himself "a brother to the Steel Legion that fights for this world"

I'd say that's pretty respectful, especially since I'm fairly certain the Templars aren't in the habit of mingling with the Guard.

Not sure how canon it is now, but I'm sure there was some RT fluff where occasionally SM could commandeer IG forces, and you ended up with (modern equivalent used) PCS with a space marine in it, running the show on the field taking orders from a combined SM/IG command hq.

I thought the Fists and the Scars were also pretty human friendly. But as has been stated, marines will respect truly impressive deeds, no matter who performed them. And let's face it, the Imperium as a whole, including all the Space Marines are pretty much just dancing to the tune played by one Ursarkar Creed, as his sheer tactical genius dwarfs basically the rest of the known universe, combined.

Grey Templar wrote:
Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Thats not correct actually. The High Lords of Terra can indeed, tell a chapter what to do.
Unless it wants to cease to exist of course.

D.Smith wrote:Im suprised Rynns world hasnt been mentioned of the Crimson Fists, I dont know about any other fluff surrounding them BUT:-

Pedro Cantor sent a portion of his forces to the Human capital, rather than dig in for a seige in the chapter fortress. And IIRC it was partly because he valued the people, as throughout the beginning of the book Cortez confronts him several times on the subject for trying to have a working relationship with the human populace.

Surely if the Chapter Master wants there to be respect between the people this makes me think this will transfer over to the IG? (back on topic eventually )

Dan

Though, Cantor does show compassion for the human populace it is explained that he doesn't want them to be overwhelmed because they do so much of the work of running the planet that would fall on his shoulders otherwise. The Fists offer them protection and the ruling class keep the mundane business in line. Also, how horrible would it look if they turtled inside the fortress while the planet fell around them. It's their homeworld, letting the human population be slaughtered while hiding inside Arx Tyrannus would have been an eternal stain on their honor.

I suspect also that a Chapter Master probably deals a lot more in human relations/talks to other generals/humans more often than many battle brothers. He probably was chosen for the position of Chapter Master because he actually cares about the great scheme of things and the other people on his planet, rather than just. Kill for the Emperor!

Frazzled wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Thats not correct actually. The High Lords of Terra can indeed, tell a chapter what to do.
Unless it wants to cease to exist of course.

Indeed. For all intents and purposes the High Lords of Terra = the Emperor when it comes to ruling and ordering the IoM. Reading more and more, it's very clear the Emperor is a figurehead more than anything else.

Frazzled wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Thats not correct actually. The High Lords of Terra can indeed, tell a chapter what to do.
Unless it wants to cease to exist of course.

Depends on the Chapter.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Depends on the Chapter.

You can always go renegade!

tavoittamaton wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Depends on the Chapter.

You can always go renegade!

No, I Just mean ain't no one tell The Space Wolves no nothing.

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines NEVER take orders from anyone.

they take suggestions.



now, the 13th black crusade was a case of the Space Marines coming to help, and you can't help if you don't know where you are needed.

the Warmaster would tell them where he needed them and they would do it because it was nessacery, not because they had to obey him. they could have walked off at any time.



Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

*hem hem* Inquisition?

phantommaster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines NEVER take orders from anyone.

they take suggestions.



now, the 13th black crusade was a case of the Space Marines coming to help, and you can't help if you don't know where you are needed.

the Warmaster would tell them where he needed them and they would do it because it was nessacery, not because they had to obey him. they could have walked off at any time.



Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

*hem hem* Inquisition?

The Inquisition can ask. They don't technically have the power to control marines but it is much better for everyone if they do.
Some inquisitors abuse their power massively...