Why CSM are now a Second Tier Army

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**willydstyle**

Guitardian wrote:Chaos has an advantage in that all four chaos powers are in the same Codex, so you can take a bit of this and a bit of that and fling it all together taking advantage of each power's strongpoint. Imperial players do not get the option to take Blood Angels assault squads, Space Wolf Psyker and wolf guard, Ultramarines tactical squads with IG tanks all led by Inquisitor lords or Marneus or something. Chaos, however can do the whole 'chaos undivided' paraadoxical approach (how can chaos be united? It's friggin CHAOS for christsake! but oh well... I digress...) and toss in khorn berserkers with nurgle plaguemarines and tzeentch sorcerors and slaanesh princes. In that regard, I think the codex is actually really flexible and forgiving for crazy mishmashes of play style.

You should ask Abbadon how he united chaos... since he's done it quite a few time, and Horus before him.

**mrwittwer**

willydstyle wrote:
Guitardian wrote:Chaos has an advantage in that all four chaos powers are in the same Codex, so you can take a bit of this and a bit of that and fling it all together taking advantage of each power's strongpoint. Imperial players do not get the option to take Blood Angels assault squads, Space Wolf Psyker and wolf guard, Ultramarines tactical squads with IG tanks all led by Inquisitor lords or Marneus or something. Chaos, however can do the whole 'chaos undivided' paraadoxical approach (how can chaos be united? It's friggin CHAOS for christsake! but oh well... I digress...) and toss in khorn berserkers with nurgle plaguemarines and tzeentch sorcerors and slaanesh princes. In that regard, I think the codex is actually really flexible and forgiving for crazy mishmashes of play style.

You should ask Abbadon how he united chaos... since he's done it quite a few time, and Horus before him.

Even the Gods of Chaos themselves form temporary form alliances to take down a different god if it is absolutely necessary. But should a codex be built to incorporate something like that, and use it as if its just commonplace?

**schadenfreude**

Guitardian wrote:Chaos has an advantage in that all four chaos powers are in the same Codex, so you can take a bit of this and a bit of that and fling it all together taking advantage of each power's strongpoint. Imperial players do not get the option to take Blood Angels assault squads, Space Wolf Psyker and wolf guard, Ultramarines tactical squads with IG tanks all led by Inquisitor lords or Marneus or something. Chaos, however can do the whole 'chaos undivided' paraadoxical approach (how can chaos be united? It's friggin CHAOS for christsake! but oh well... I digress...) and toss in khorn berserkers with nurgle plaguemarines and tzeentch sorcerors and slaanesh princes. In that regard, I think the codex is actually really flexible and forgiving for crazy mishmashes of play style.

I liked the old rules for deamonic rivalry.
They worked as follows

No Khorne with Slaneesh

No Tzeentch with Nurgle

I really hope the old deamonic rivalry returns in our next codex, with the once exception that players who take Abbadon can ignore deamonic rivalry.

**willydstyle**

mrwittwer wrote:
willydstyle wrote:
Guitardian wrote:Chaos has an advantage in that all four chaos powers are in the same Codex, so you can take a bit of this and a bit of that and fling it all together taking advantage of each power's strongpoint. Imperial players do not get the option to take Blood Angels assault squads, Space Wolf Psyker and wolf guard, Ultramarines tactical squads with IG tanks all led by Inquisitor lords or Marneus or something. Chaos, however can do the whole 'chaos undivided' paraadoxical approach (how can chaos be united? It's friggin CHAOS for christsake! but oh well... I digress...) and toss in khorn berserkers with nurgle plaguemarines and tzeentch sorcerors and slaanesh princes. In that regard, I think the codex is actually really flexible and forgiving for crazy mishmashes of play style.

You should ask Abbadon how he united chaos... since he's done it quite a few time, and Horus before him.

Even the Gods of Chaos themselves form temporary form alliances to take down a different god if it is absolutely necessary. But should a codex be built to incorporate something like that, and use it as if its just commonplace?

The Black Crusades have been numerous and long... you think we shouldn't be able to play a list that represents a force that is part of one of the iconic struggles of 40k? People need to get off their mono-god bias.

**Volkan**

I completely agree with that willy.

**Kungfuhustler**

Undivided/undecided is a super-powered ultra competitive list, that's fairly un-debatable, but which traitor legion builds do you guys think can earn tier 1 status?

I've had great success with night lords, and I've heard world eaters and death guard are some clear winners from many sources. Any others that you feel are truly competitive?

**Guitardian**

I wasn't trying to frown upon the obvious paradox that exists, just pointing out I guess kind of a 'philosophical' point. How is it Chaos if it is undivided? Chaos is by nature pretty much the essence of entropy and division isn't it? Maybe that's why the paradox of 'chaos undivided' exists, because chaos is just chaotic enough that such an absurdity of thought could come into reality... THAT's how Abaddon managed to pull it together... the ultimate existential joke. I know, I've asked him. (upon the coaxing of an above poster) and he just laughed and told me to watch more infomercials...

**AbsoluteBlue**

I am convinced that the CSM Codex was really a Black Legion codex, with a splash of others... to form "Renegade" warbands, but nothing comprehensive enough to really do other "Chapters" without just painting and converting. I don't think this suggests they ever plan to make Chaos Chapter codices. Even the fluff in the book is geared around Black Legion with a splash of Kharn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, "Chaos Undivided" actually isn't a result of pettiness and chaos, its actually about a strong leader rallying several renegade bands as part of a offensive campaign. It's actually about the leader pushing aside the pettiness that may exist and rallying everybody he can, regardless of warband or god, and putting together a sizable force to inflict the most damage on the enemy. The fluff indicates that Abaddon has accomplished this many times. To me, this implies that they kept that option as a primary build method for the armies using the CSM Codex.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
On that note... The Chaos Gods are looking for Chaos on a Macro-Scale, not micro, which means that need a strong organized arm to wield their power... think of it a focused Chaos, not merely a group of random has-beens

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And lastly... Chaos already won!

The heresy was their victory, and the continued strife between loyalist and chaos are testament to their success.

**Terminus**

AbsoluteBlue wrote:I am convinced that the CSM Codex was really a Black Legion codex, with a splash of others... to form "Renegade" warbands, but nothing comprehensive enough to really do other "Chapters" without just painting and converting. I don't think this suggests they ever plan to make Chaos Chapter codices. Even the fluff in the book is geared around Black Legion with a splash of Kharn.

The format of that book was heavily influenced by a minimalist design philosophy which GW has long-since abandoned.

**imweasel**

Kungfuhustler wrote:I think CSM could do will in Ard' boyz, an example list

Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons

Around 2500 points, pretty dang ard'

Bezerkers in a rhino? Huh?
1ksons, period? Huh?
One chaos land raider? Huh?

This isn't even hard enough to fluff my pillow.

**Backdraft005**

sourclams wrote:I was willing to run Lash DP/Rhino CSM/Oblits/Termicide in 'Ard Boyz last year, and even though I did quite well with them, I'd be very hesitant to run them again this year.

-New IG simply present too much firepower. My 2500 IG 'Ard Boyz has, in addition to double mystics and the usual 12+ vehicles, more than 80 special and heavy weapons. Not shots, actual weapons. A flamer is 1. A T/L Lascannon is 1. An autocannon is 1. 80 of them. Majority at S6 or higher. My 'Ard Boyz CSM army totaled about 76 models.

Lash is largely irrelevant because there's nothing worth lashing, and Chaos simply can't bring enough firepower to bear quickly enough. If you sit on the table, you can destroy, potentially, three vehicles on turn 1 with 3 Heavy slots shooting. If you get first turn. If the IG player gets first turn, you can either try Reserves tricks, which he can counter with mystics to a large extent, or a lot of your gak is going to die.

-Same thing with Space Wolves, and some well-built marine lists. Space Wolves especially will not only out-shoot you with cost effective AC Dreads, Long Fangs, and massed Razorbacks, but can also outfight you. TCav will put the hurt on any unit save for maybe Kharn or Abaddon, and are so fast that they can stay out of arms reach. Wolf Lords will generally outfight other Chaos HQs, save for maybe Abaddon again, but once more the speed issue can come into play.

I do agree that the old Lash Chaos build is fully capable of handing a mediore list or player their ass on a cracker, but the same can be said for the newer generation of IG/SW/mech Marines, and in the competitive matchups, I'd much rather have the newer codices.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up the leaf blower list...

He has the right of it. CSM is too expensive and doe not have enough fire power even in its standard list. I mean, I still win time to time, but when we talk competitively, no, I don't with my CSM. Chalk the up to me being a bad player, or recognize that the players in your area as being sucky. Now if CSM had better mobility, the reduction of fire power wouldnt be to great of a problem. Just look at raptors and bikes. raptors are 2-3 points too expensive and bikes are 4-5 points too expensive.

That's why I am using the Blood Angels codex now. the list is just too outdated, lol.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

imweasel wrote:
Kungfuhustler wrote:I think CSM could do will in Ard' boyz, an example list

Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons

Around 2500 points, pretty dang ard'

Bezerkers in a rhino? Huh?
1ksons, period? Huh?
One chaos land raider? Huh?

This isn't even hard enough to fluff my pillow.

Has potential, but the amount of transport would alone give the game away.

**Guitardian**

The list is too outdated!? people still play Tau, Eldar, Necrons, DE, Dark Angels, Witchhunters, Daemonhunters... I believe they all far outrank your concept of 'outdated' with the CSM codex, but they still turn up at games. I guess we should all just switch over to playing Space Wolves anyway if we want to be competative, right?

**Monster Rain**

imweasel wrote:
Kungfuhustler wrote:I think CSM could do will in Ard' boyz, an example list

Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons

Around 2500 points, pretty dang ard'

Bezerkers in a rhino? Huh?
1ksons, period? Huh?
One chaos land raider? Huh?

This isn't even hard enough to fluff my pillow.

Yeah, Berserkers in a Rhino. Yeah, one Chaos Land Raider.

Do you even play in tournaments?

**willydstyle**

He does play in tournaments. He also tanks his opponents sportsmanship score and refuses to play if they bring a list he doesn't like.

@Guitardian: outdated doesn't simply mean old, it means that the codex' design philosophy does not keep up with the game as it is currently played. The Dark Angels codex is similar, but (as chaos) it was designed to lower the "power curve" with slightly too expensive units and lack of in-built synergy, it is outdated as well. "Modern" codices have, in general, cheaper basic units and better synergy built into the rules of the models and units themselves. Eldar, for example, has good synergy, although their unit prices are generally a bit too high, however they are still more "current" than the CSM codex, despite being an older book.

**Monster Rain**

willydstyle wrote:He does play in tournaments. He also tanks his opponents sportsmanship score and refuses to play if they bring a list he doesn't like.

Ah. Well that explains a lot.

Has anyone played their Chaos against the new Blood Angels yet? I know that it would be purely anecdotal but I'd still be interested to know how they're doing in the context of this discussion.

It would seem to me that [Lash + Lots of Jump Infantry= BA Fail]

**despoiler52**

White dwarf did, BA rapped.

**Monster Rain**

Yeah, I saw that. I don't think WD would have the new army that they are pushing get disrespected by last years' leftovers though, do you?

I'm talking about actual players outside of the 'Eavy Metal studio.

**willydstyle**

As much as I don't think Chaos are truly competitive any more... a single game doesn't prove much, even when it supports my prejudices

**mrwittwer**

Monster Rain wrote:

Has anyone played their Chaos against the new Blood Angels yet? I know that it would be purely anecdotal but I'd still be interested to know how they're doing in the context of this discussion.

It would seem to me that [Lash + Lots of Jump Infantry= BA Fail]

Im playing next weekend vs the New Blood Angels, however i dont use lash. And i will be using Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons. We will prolly be playing several games and i am betting they will all be very close.

**Sanctjud**

Why does the BA list have to be Assault Marine jet pack heavy?

They can perfectly go mech, crazy mech.
They also have libbies...

Or they could deepstrike in and take stuff out pretty reliably with the weapon delivery and actual DSing distances...

BA are very flexible in what they bring, it's not just one type of list any more.

**mrwittwer**

Sanctjud wrote:Why does the BA list have to be Assault Marine jet pack heavy?

They can perfectly go mech, crazy mech.
They also have libbies...

Or they could deepstrike in and take stuff out pretty reliably with the weapon delivery and actual DSing distances...

BA are very flexible in what they bring, it's not just one type of list any more.

I personally think Blood Angels have become the most flexible book by far, things i have seen/thought of Landraider Spam, Rhino Rush, Razorback spam, Jump Assaults, Asteroth lists, Dreadnought Lists, Stormraven Assaults, and so much much more. In my opinion GW really did some good work this time.

**Iron_Chaos_Brute**

Sanctjud wrote:Why does the BA list have to be Assault Marine jet pack heavy?

BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THEY PLAYED IN THE LAST CODEX!!1!1!!

**Monster Rain**

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:
Sanctjud wrote:Why does the BA list have to be Assault Marine jet pack heavy?

BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THEY PLAYED IN THE LAST CODEX!!1!1!!

Clearly no one has looked at the new model range... Jump Packs all over the place.

Ah well.

**odorofdeath**

Actually I played v the new BA's a few days ago... it was by no means a competitive game so take this with a grain of salt but I came extremely close to winning. We where playing a take and hold, 5 objectives, spearhead deployment (opposite corners, sorry if this isnt the right name). I was playing a mono khorne army as a joke (to prove berzerkers are the true masters of assault lul) and it was 1500 points. My mate had chosen to go mehc, with a razorback and 3 rhinos and a monstrous unit of death company... oh and mephiston.

The lists

Me
Kharn
3x 8 berzerkers, champ with pfist, rhino
2 Dreads, 2 dccws
3 Oblits
LR with 4 khorne terms, pairs of lightnin claws and a chaos lord with a bloodfeeder and term armor

Him
Mephiston
9 Death Company with power weapons, Reclusiarch, rhino
10 man assault squad, 2 plasma pistols
10 man tac squad, plasma gun, rhino
5 devs, razorback (can't remember what they had)
1 DC dread, 2 dccws

Basically everything I expected to happen did... the death company+ chaplain ate Kharn and a unit of berzerkers and mephiston pwned a dread... but not before he knocked him down to 1 wound! The oblits nuked the dread turn 1, and the lord and terms killed the devs beofre being overun by the assault squad (in no small part due to TERRIBLE bloodfeeder rolls) and in the end I maid a terrible judegement call and attempted the 1 wound mephiston with a some berzerkers... they didn't make it and because of that his assault squad swooped in on the following turn and claimed the ob. ftw.

So my personal thoughts on BA: very cool and definetly very competitive (i wanna try that 11 dreadnought army out) but not ultimate cheese.

**despoiler52**

Monster Rain wrote:Yeah, I saw that. I don't think WD would have the new army that they are pushing get disrespected by last years' leftovers though, do you?

I guess that's true. All WD games seemed a little set up to me, with one side always takinf suboptimal lists, unfavorable objective positioning, and "bad luck".

**Guitardian**

Some of the old WD from the mid-nineties were actually really good, that was my favorite part of the magazine back in those days. (the days when everyone picked on Gav because he lost almost all the time). They actually had the NEWEST ARMY LOSE sometimes (gasp).

**Monster Rain**

Guitardian wrote:Some of the old WD from the mid-nineties were actually really good, that was my favorite part of the magazine back in those days. (the days when everyone picked on Gav because he lost almost all the time). They actually had the NEWEST ARMY LOSE sometimes (gasp).

I didn't start playing until 2004, so I couldn't really comment on that.

Since I started picking up the occasional WD though, I notice serious discrepancies between the lists I would make and the lists taken by the whipping boy in a WD batrep.

**imweasel**

Monster Rain wrote:
imweasel wrote:
Kungfuhustler wrote:I think CSM could do will in Ard' boyz, an example list

Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons

Around 2500 points, pretty dang ard'

Bezerkers in a rhino? Huh?
1ksons, period? Huh?
One chaos land raider? Huh?

This isn't even hard enough to fluff my pillow.

Yeah, Berserkers in a Rhino. Yeah, one Chaos Land Raider.

Do you even play in tournaments?

This is a 'ard boyz list, in case you didn't notice. Like I said, not even 'ard enough to fluff my pillow.

**Monster Rain**

imweasel wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
imweasel wrote:
Kungfuhustler wrote:I think CSM could do will in Ard' boyz, an example list

Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons

Around 2500 points, pretty dang ard'

Bezerkers in a rhino? Huh?
1ksons, period? Huh?
One chaos land raider? Huh?

This isn't even hard enough to fluff my pillow.

Yeah, Berserkers in a Rhino. Yeah, one Chaos Land Raider.

Do you even play in tournaments?

This is a 'ard boyz list, in case you didn't notice. Like I said, not even 'ard enough to fluff my pillow.

Right, I know what you said. My point was that what you said had no basis in 'Ard Boyz reality. Also, did I miss something or is 'Ard Boyz not a tournament all of a sudden?

**sourclams**

His point is that this is a terrible list, 'Ard Boyz or no. You're going to get eaten alive if you show up at 'Ard Boyz with a battlebox army, no matter what the codex is.