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Are we considering the Seer Council to be an addition to the Farseer himself? Meaning that he would join the unit if he takes it, much like a retinue?

If that is the case, then Augment should be the first thing you use each turn, if you want to use it, rather than adding a step in during a Farseer power.

If it is not the case, how exactly is Augment supposed to work? Which Farseers? All of them? One of them?

Ok, re-writing... this is pretty much how i feel it should go, taking into account all of the suggestions and modifying them a little.

WS BS S T W I A LD SV
Ancient Farseer
4 4 3 4 3 4 1 10 3++
Farseer
5 5 3 3 3 5 2 10 4++
Warlock Battlemage
4 4 3 3 2 5 2 9 4++
Warlock apprentice
4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8 4++

Ok, i feel the ancient should have a worse statline than a normal seer, the fact he's so old should give him T:4 (like eldrad, ancients are turning into crystal, slowly) Also, i do not feel he would be as skilled in warmaking (so -1 WS, BS, A) And his invun should be 3++, the fact that his powers are stronger than anyone elses could be the reason the armour is buffed up.

Wargear

Witchblade
Shuriken Pistol
Ghosthelm (ignore perils on a 3+)

Any model may exchange their singing spear and shuriken pistol for a singing spear
The unit may purchase jetbikes at XX points per model.

Any Farseer may purchase the following runes.
Runes of Witnessing for XX points
Runes of Warding for XX points
Runes of Fortitute for XX points
Runes of Power for XX points

Runes of Witnessing: The model must roll an additional D6 when casting psychic powers, discarding the highest result.
Runes of Warding: Any enemy model attempting to cast a psychic power must roll and additional D6. Any roll that exceeds the Ld of the psyker will cause a perils of the warp attack.
Runes of Fortitute: 5++ to any unit the psyker joins. (warlocks with guardians, warlocks with WG, Farseer joining scorpions, etc) A clause to stop the OP of this could be that wraith units could never be fortuned (we were working on the avatar being unable to be fortuned) if your already dead, how fortunate can you be?
Runes of Power: Any psychic test that totals 4 or less, cannot be countered by any means (total after removing the highest die is using RoWit) such as psychic hoods. Models with complete immunity are still immune.

For units i was thinking...
You may take a Farseer (both flavours) as an IC. (Ancient Farseers would be limited to 1 per army)
For the seer councils, have it as another entry, consisting of 2-3 Farseers and 3-9 Warlocks (which is whats in the current council box) With the council, exclude battlemages. For powers i'd consider only the battle mage having a decent level of access to the powers, the coucil simply providing a buff for the seers, possibly with some council powers produced by their collective minds.

So... Powers

-----Farseer powers
-----A Farseer may select 2 powers, An ancient may select 3.
--Guide: As normal
--Doom: As normal, (dooming a vehicle will cause a +1 on the damage results table)
--Fortune: As normal
--Webway Activation: Gate of infinity power

-----Battlemage powers, select one.
--Enhance: Add +1 to WS, BS, I, A, Ld (choose one) gives some more variety, like having +1BS guardian defenders, or +1A on storm units. given the choice, its only +1 to 1 stat. I left out S, T, W and Sv due to being much better than the others. (and the possibility of having T:7 WG) You know alot of problems are coming with wraith guard... maybe having a warlock with them is a bad idea... maybe a different seer would be better, harlequins get a shadowseer, wraithunits could get a spiritseer as standard with different power options, or altered power options.
--Conceal: The Warlock and his unit recieve a 6+ cover save while in the open. Additionaly they have the USR:Stealth (giving a 5+ cover save in the open)
--Embolden: The unit may re-roll any failed Ld tests.
--Destructor: Counts as heavy flamer.
--Spear of Khaine: Counts as blood lance?????
--Sunder: Conunts as Melta gun

-----Council powers
-----Apprentice Warlocks may select 1 power for every 3 warlocks in their unit, or part there of
--Mind War: Target ANY enemy model (can pick out models in units) with in 24", that model will take a S:X hit, where X = the number of warlocks in the unit. (possible to allow it multiple uses, or let the council cast multiple powers, as a WHOLE council casting 1 mind war is a bit poor)
--Regrowth: All units withing x" of the council gain 5+ FNP. Where X is equal to the number of warlocks in the unit.
--Augment: For every 3 warlocks, or part there of, you may add an additional 6" to any Farseer powers originating from the unit.
--Endure: All units within x" of the council gain Stubborn. Where X is equal to the number of warlocks in the unit.
--Eldritch Storm: Needs work, an anti-DS power with the added ability that ALL models withing a certain range move as if in DT

Thats it for now.

Gwyidion wrote:Runes:

Runes of GoScrewYourself are too good. S8 Ap1 for any power which affects the eldar?! Thats a "fail your save and you explode" power. I think runes of warding, which make every psyker on the table take a perils nearly 40% of the time are plenty good enough.

And runes of warding - 10 points? they're already one of the best wargear options in the entire game. They need a price increase, not decrease.

Runes of focus - way, way too good. Your farseer who can cast only two powers joins a unit of guardians with an embolden lock, and has runes of witnessing. Now, he just takes 3 tests, 1 at 10, 1 at 9, and 1 at 8, all with 3d6-choose two, plus rerolls for failures. More often than not, he'll succeed, and, with proper placement, can guide/fortune half an eldar gunline. Effective 6 powers on a 150ptish model.

If you want to add more runes, add in runes of war - enabling the use of a witchblade or a singing spear (yes, a force weapon when thrown, they can allocate that wound), as a force weapon

Runes of Fortitude - no. You can't toss unit-upgrade invulnerable saves around the eldar codex which contains fortune like that. It is utterly broken on a unit like wraithguard, who currently possess a single weakness - rending or powerweapons in CC. Suddenly, the unit is T6 and has an effective 3+/4++, and is essentially invulnerable in close combat.

Runes of Power - an ability like this would be good, but i'm not sure i like this method of achieving the goal.

RoFul - I still think it's a good idea, though I'll admit that S8 AP1 is over the top. Also it only effect the one with the rune (and his squad) not Eldar in general. S6 AP2 would be enough.

RoWarding - Agreed if the price is altered (esspecially with the extra defenses like RoFul) it should be put up.

RoFocus - Given time to think about it more, I still really like it. I did mention limiting it to the only power you may use was an option. I honestly didn't think about the Ld reroll, good catch. Another balance could be the penalty is a set -1 Ld for each extra test you make, so if you make 2 extra, you make three tests at Ld 8. Yes it's powerful, but fluff wise so are the Eldar Farseers, I wouldn't expect the rune to be less the 30pts, and would want to see it more at the 40pts make, which would see at the current proposed pricing would see your 150ish model have only the rune and no powers.

RoFortitude - Agreed, mobile invun save should be avoided. Alternatively betters the basic 4++ to a 3++

RoPower - I think this is actually a very good one. Only, allow those completely immune to psychic powers to keep that.

Gwyidion wrote:Innate Psyker - too good in an army of specialists. A Unit of BS5 reapers, a unit of WS6 Harlequins, a unit of WS5 banshees. Eldar units are powerful, and small changes can change a unit from being "very good at their role" to "broken". That harlequin unit goes first against nearly everything, hits nearly everything on 3s with rending, and has an invuln save which means they can tangle with well, anything. Adding in abilities which can change the statline of any unit in the codex makes units insanely hard to balance, as you have to take into account all possible combinations (for instance, we can't give wraithlords an invulnerable save, because if they are fortuned, they become invincible).

There was talk a while back as to how to fix the Aspect warriors in general. I'm pretty sure one of the proposed options was indeed increasing melee aspects from WS4-5 and ranged aspects from BS4-5. This was simply one musings of how to implement that while also giving a chance to tweak you force, in addition to the basic WS/BS if you're versing alot of other high init forces, +1 I may be better. Running a foot slogger army? take the 6+ cover for the chance to survive those AP4 weapons. But again, good pick on the wraithguard. Limit it to non-vehicles, wraith units, psykers or ICs (maybe harlequins).

Gwyidion wrote:
Mental Siege, and any power which involves taking X number of psychic tests. Psychic tests are slow. You have to roll them one at a time. Taking 10 of them isn't like rolling 10 to-hits. Simplify.

The Farseer may take a penalty to his Ld for the test, one unite within 18" take two S5 AP4 hits for every -1 taken.

Gwyidion wrote:I've had a proposed method for it, which I think i've mentioned before:
"Mind War: At any time an opponent uses an ability which nullifies, or cancels a eldar psychic power on a fixed die-roll (i.e., a Space Marine Librarian with a psychic hood), instead of the normal effect, roll a d6 and add each model's leadership. If the opposing player wins, the power is cancelled normally. If the eldar player wins, the model which possesses the wargear item or ability to cancel a psychic power takes the difference in wounds, with no armor or cover saves allowed."

Only thing I have against this is that it shouldn't be a psychic power. Do I have to now cast a power for the chance to use it? If they have 2 psyker I can't counter the second. Gorechild's RoFul and Dayve's RoPower are better ideas in my opinion.

Gwyidion wrote:
Warlock stuff:
Conceal - 5+ cover at all times, or stealth. Not both. The rules interact.

Agreed, or reduce the cover save to 6+ (then have stealth increase that to 5+)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dayve110 wrote:
-----Battlemage powers, select one.
--Enhance: Add +1 to WS, BS, I, A, Ld (choose one) gives some more variety, like having +1BS guardian defenders, or +1A on storm units. given the choice, its only +1 to 1 stat. I left out S, T, W and Sv due to being much better than the others. (and the possibility of having T:7 WG) You know alot of problems are coming with wraith guard... maybe having a warlock with them is a bad idea... maybe a different seer would be better, harlequins get a shadowseer, wraithunits could get a spiritseer as standard with different power options, or altered power options.

The wraithguard problem could be solved by have spiritseer as a power rather than an upgrade then reword the Wraithguard entry to "A unit of Wraithguards may be lead by a Warlock with the spiritseer power." If a Warlock can only take one power then you don't risk OPing the unit.

dayve110 wrote:
-----Council powers
-----Apprentice Warlocks may select 1 power for every 3 warlocks in their unit, or part there of
--Mind War: Target ANY enemy model (can pick out models in units) with in 24", that model will take a S:X hit, where X = the number of warlocks in the unit. (possible to allow it multiple uses, or let the council cast multiple powers, as a WHOLE council casting 1 mind war is a bit poor)
--Regrowth: All units withing x" of the council gain 5+ FNP. Where X is equal to the number of warlocks in the unit.
--Augment: For every 3 warlocks, or part there of, you may add an additional 6" to any Farseer powers originating from the unit.
--Endure: All units within x" of the council gain Stubborn. Where X is equal to the number of warlocks in the unit.
--Eldritch Storm: Needs work, an anti-DS power with the added ability that ALL models withing a certain range move as if in DT

Thats it for now.

I liked the idea someone mentioned that the council as a whole has/uses the powers. So, "The council may pick a single power for each full 3 model in the unit (including Farseers). The council may cast 1 power for every 3 warlocks (or part there of) per turn."

Regrowth - I'm one of the ones who think that FNP is become too widespread and don't think Eldar of all armies should have it. Alternatively +1 T or
Regrowth: Add +1 to the dice roll of any armour save made by a unit within X" (X = number of warlocks in the council). Armour still count as their base value for AP purposes.

Eldritch Storm: If the final position of a deep striking unit places them within X" (X = number of warlocks in the council) of the council (target unit ???) scatter them 2d6" a second time (unaffected by special rules) as the storm buffers them/interferes with signals.

dayve110 wrote:Ok, re-writing... this is pretty much how i feel it should go, taking into account all of the suggestions and modifying them a little.

WS BS S T W I A LD SV
Ancient Farseer
4 4 3 4 3 4 1 10 3++
Farseer
5 5 3 3 3 5 2 10 4++
Warlock Battlemage
4 4 3 3 2 5 2 9 4++
Warlock apprentice
4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8 4++

I like this set of stats, and your logic behind them.

Runes of Witnessing: The model must roll an additional D6 when casting psychic powers, discarding the highest result.
Runes of Warding: Any enemy model attempting to cast a psychic power must roll and additional D6. Any roll that exceeds the Ld of the psyker will cause a perils of the warp attack.
Runes of Fortitute: 5++ to any unit the psyker joins. (warlocks with guardians, warlocks with WG, Farseer joining scorpions, etc) A clause to stop the OP of this could be that wraith units could never be fortuned (we were working on the avatar being unable to be fortuned) if your already dead, how fortunate can you be?
Runes of Power: Any psychic test that totals 4 or less, cannot be countered by any means (total after removing the highest die is using RoWit) such as psychic hoods. Models with complete immunity are still immune.

OK with most of this, Runes of Power are kind pointless without Witnessing. I'd like to see something where I can take Power without Witnessing. For Fortitude, a special ability "Wraith" could be given to both Wraith units, outlining what can't be done to them and also detail their Wraithsight.

-----Farseer powers
-----A Farseer may select 2 powers, An ancient may select 3.
--Guide: As normal
--Doom: As normal, (dooming a vehicle will cause a +1 on the damage results table)
--Fortune: As normal
--Webway Activation: Gate of infinity power

A+. I have no issue with this, and really like it overall.

-----Battlemage powers, select one.
--Enhance: Add +1 to WS, BS, I, A, Ld (choose one) gives some more variety, like having +1BS guardian defenders, or +1A on storm units. given the choice, its only +1 to 1 stat. I left out S, T, W and Sv due to being much better than the others. (and the possibility of having T:7 WG) You know alot of problems are coming with wraith guard... maybe having a warlock with them is a bad idea... maybe a different seer would be better, harlequins get a shadowseer, wraithunits could get a spiritseer as standard with different power options, or altered power options.
--Conceal: The Warlock and his unit recieve a 6+ cover save while in the open. Additionaly they have the USR:Stealth (giving a 5+ cover save in the open)
--Embolden: The unit may re-roll any failed Ld tests.
--Destructor: Counts as heavy flamer.
--Spear of Khaine: Counts as blood lance?????
--Sunder: Conunts as Melta gun

I'd like to see a Spiritseer only being capable of being added to Wraith units (and get their own profile, stats, rules, etc). The rest of the powers seem ok, but what's a blood lance? Something to give them prowess in CC (such as making those with the power strike as though they had power weapons) could really make them customizable and ferocious for whatever you build them for. As well they should be - this is not a cheap unit to be taking.

-----Council powers
-----Apprentice Warlocks may select 1 power for every 3 warlocks in their unit, or part there of
--Mind War: Target ANY enemy model (can pick out models in units) with in 24", that model will take a S:X hit, where X = the number of warlocks in the unit. (possible to allow it multiple uses, or let the council cast multiple powers, as a WHOLE council casting 1 mind war is a bit poor)
--Regrowth: All units withing x" of the council gain 5+ FNP. Where X is equal to the number of warlocks in the unit.
--Augment: For every 3 warlocks, or part there of, you may add an additional 6" to any Farseer powers originating from the unit.
--Endure: All units within x" of the council gain Stubborn. Where X is equal to the number of warlocks in the unit.
--Eldritch Storm: Needs work, an anti-DS power with the added ability that ALL models withing a certain range move as if in DT

So, this mean from the 3-9 warlocks, you can have up to 3 powers, many of which are boosted due to numbers, yes? I like the regrowth option given for armor (with a new name, of course), and I kind of dislike the endure power. At best, units within 9" get stubborn? I prefer it to be one of two things, based on how you use it - backline, long-range army support (via buffs, de-buffs, and other methods), or close-up, in your face, frontline action. Many of the battlemage powers tend to this, and a few of these do, too. Stubborn works fine for the latter option, but that would be all. Eldritch Storm just seems out of place. Why not just make it an attack, like it is now? It could do kind minor damage, include the vehicle spinning and maybe cause pinning, or an auto-glance on vehicles instead of turning.

Overall, it's nice, and I think the Farseers themselves are A+. But the council needs some tweaking. The first priority is "what is this unit going to do". Is it going to provide long-range backline support, or be an in-your-face, leading the charge combat unit, or one of these two based on player choices?

I think it should be your own choice.

I'm leaning towards your own choice... yay a short post this time.

TheRedArmy wrote:Are we considering the Seer Council to be an addition to the Farseer himself? Meaning that he would join the unit if he takes it, much like a retinue?

If that is the case, then Augment should be the first thing you use each turn, if you want to use it, rather than adding a step in during a Farseer power.

If it is not the case, how exactly is Augment supposed to work? Which Farseers? All of them? One of them?

To clarify, Augment is used when a farseer in the council, just passed his/hers psychic test for one of the powers, then a warlock in the council uses augment, if passed the range is doubled, this is for one farseer, but of course if you have multiple warlocks with augment, then you could use it on more farseers. The Farseer can choose to join the unit, like an independent character.

Just to clarify, we are not getting rid of the lone Farseer, are we?

i certainly am not

I should have been more clear - the "mind war" fix to eldar power cancellation I proposed is not a psychic power, it is a special rule that is default for farseers.

I feel that adding a power (such as fortitude - 5++ for farseer and his unit) which requires stipulations to be made elsewhere in the codex in order to ensure that it doesn't become broken indicates that the power isn't well designed.

Adding in abilities which allow for modification to unit stats makes units difficult to balance. How do you balance a codex if you have multiple different entries which can effect units' stats in different ways?

Note that in the current codex, there are very few abilities which directly change a unit's stats. Enhance is one of the few (harlies have FC), and it is on the warlock entry, which is limited to very few units.

Adding an invulnerable save doesn't bolster the current role of a unit (as doom, guide, and fortune do, by adding wounding potential, hit potential, and resilience, respectively). Adding an invulnerable save adds a resilience against weapon types, which bolestering an armor save does not. If people are so set on the farseer having an ability or wargear item beyond fortune which makes a unit harder to kill, there are other avenues which can be persued which does not cause problems across the codex, which allowing for a invulnerable save to be added to most any unit does.

There are rules in the current codex which don't really need to be upgraded, and i feel enhance is one of them. Especially with the distribution of warlocks about the codex, that ability is well pointed and balanced. Better to leave it as it is and add more powers such as the spear of khain and sunder powers, which i think are great extensions of a warlock's offense (although keep in mind that adding a meltagun and blood lance to a storm guardian unit is going to swing the needle even further from defenders).

And keeping Enhance as +1WS/I will swing the needle further still.
Having the option to get a +1BS with an altered enhance on guardians might make them more worthwhile.

nobody takes enhance on guardians. If they do, they are fools. Guardians in combat? why?

Destructor is what warlocks with storm squads take.

Just because something doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone else.

And instead of calling people fools and disregarding peoples ideas, why not post some of your own ideas on how to change or improve them?

Quite frankly I always take conceal on my guardians whenever I do take them It tuns out invaluable results.

the problems with defender guardians will be solved by alterations to the defender guardian unit. One of the problems with defender guardians is not their lack of BS4. Trying to make a unit better/taken more often by giving the upgrade option it shares with other units better abilities is not a good method of balancing the power of units.

Yet any way of improving guardians is always shot-down by someone or other, for varied reasons.
There appears to be very little you can do with guardians...

The main thing with Guardians is their cost. They are effectively Guardsmen in their stats with I4. If they cost 6 points a model, I could see myself taking some for light CC support (Storm Guardians), or for the weapons platform (throwing in more Heavy Weapons). As they cost at 8, they simply aren't worth it, since anything charging them (short of Tau, and even that is in doubt) will make them rout, and if they charge anything better than a Guardsmen, they get cut down. I think leaving Guardians as they are (their stats reflect their abilities - citizen soldiers) and simply dropping their cost (and maybe adding that third squad idea - Forgot it for now), and they are fine.

Enough with the off-topic, though, we're talking Farseers.

nulipuli2 wrote:To clarify, Augment is used when a farseer in the council, just passed his/hers psychic test for one of the powers, then a warlock in the council uses augment, if passed the range is doubled, this is for one farseer, but of course if you have multiple warlocks with augment, then you could use it on more farseers. The Farseer can choose to join the unit, like an independent character.

I thought so. Then yes, I dislike this idea. The order of events now goes -

1. Declare using a Farseer Power
2. Roll Psychic Test (continue if passed)
3. (Optional) Test for Perils
4. Declare using Augment.
5. Roll Psychic Test
6. (Optional) Test for Perils
7. Declare Target for power.
8a. Augment passed, measure using new range of ability.
8b. Augment failed, measure using regular range of ability.

You see how complicated this has become? The way I prefer, at the beginning of the turn, you can roll all Augments you want at once and simply apply them to the Farseers in the unit. I prefer Augment to be affecting the entire units' Farseers - a second Augment would be used if one is lost (due to perils, wound allocation, etc.).

And to clarify, the Seer council is 1-3 Farseers (of any rank), with 3-9 Warlocks (of any rank), yes? Does that mean that Farseers are part of the unit, and are permanently attached? Do they retain Independent Character? I hope not, otherwise that would be a good way to get way too many Seers (as tempting as 6 Seers is in a list).

I think that if we do a 'seer council' unit, the farseers in the council should not be independent characters. I also don't like the idea of an active ability which affects the farseer's psychic powers. Instead, the farseer should gain the benefit to their powers (increased range, immunity to nullification, whatever) merely by being present in a seer council, and the magnitude of the benefit should be defined by the # of models alive in the council. It is most simple that way.

I don't want to go back to guardians. It seems like we spent 10 pages on them already.

The key elements of the seer council (as I see them):
Low mobility - mobility, along with the inevitable durability of a fortuned unit with an invulnerable save, can make the seer council way more effective offensively than i feel it should be. Especially a unit with singing spears or witchblades, high mobility could make a small council an AT unit (which should not be its purpose).

Low ranged offensive power - having a decent hitting strength inside 18 inches (outside of eldritch storm, a possible eldritch bolt type power, and mind war (if it remains as is), is fine, but this shouldn't be a ranged weapon.

Low close combat power - the council cannot have power weapons. witchblades, as now, is fine, and the seers having force weapons is fine, but if they have power weapons they are eldar-ish termies, not what i see a council being (i know that no one has suggested power weapons)

Psychic power - their 'power level' should put the unit instantly mentioned in any conversation which includes the words "best psyker unit in the game".

Nullification resistance - the achilles heel of the current council, and any list that relies on psychic powers, is the spread of nullification methods. The seer council should either be completely immune, or partially resistant to psychic powers. I still feel a new special rule for a non-psychic power opposed leadership check, incorporating mind war, is the best method. It isn't an outright immunity, but it puts the burden of taking wounds on the opposing player. It is very eldarish.

Simple - we can't have eldar players taking 5 psychic tests for one power, or subsequent tests with lots of outcomes. The current schema for psychic powers works well, and we should work within, or alter the parameters (leadership, # of dice, reroll) within that schema. As far as successfully casting powers, eldar psykers are already the best in the game. Passing extra tests is not only complicated, but far, far too easy. I feel that having 1-3 farseers with active psychic abilities, 3-7 warlocks with passive abilities, and the "seer council" as a whole having a few active abilities is plenty enough.

My own specific idea for the council are above.

I think that if we do a 'seer council' unit, the farseers in the council should not be independent characters. I also don't like the idea of an active ability which affects the farseer's psychic powers. Instead, the farseer should gain the benefit to their powers (increased range, immunity to nullification, whatever) merely by being present in a seer council, and the magnitude of the benefit should be defined by the # of models alive in the council. It is most simple that way.

I don't want to go back to guardians. It seems like we spent 10 pages on them already.

The key elements of the seer council (as I see them):
Low mobility - mobility, along with the inevitable durability of a fortuned unit with an invulnerable save, can make the seer council way more effective offensively than i feel it should be. Especially a unit with singing spears or witchblades, high mobility could make a small council an AT unit (which should not be its purpose).

Low ranged offensive power - having a decent hitting strength inside 18 inches (outside of eldritch storm, a possible eldritch bolt type power, and mind war (if it remains as is), is fine, but this shouldn't be a ranged weapon.

Psychic power - their 'power level' should put the unit instantly mentioned in any conversation which includes the words "best psyker unit in the game".

Nullification resistance - the achilles heel of the current council, and any list that relies on psychic powers, is the spread of nullification methods. The seer council should either be completely immune, or partially resistant to psychic powers. I still feel a new special rule for a non-psychic power opposed leadership check, incorporating mind war, is the best method. It isn't an outright immunity, but it puts the burden of taking wounds on the opposing player. It is very eldarish.

Simple - we can't have eldar players taking 5 psychic tests for one power, or subsequent tests with lots of outcomes. The current schema for psychic powers works well, and we should work within, or alter the parameters (leadership, # of dice, reroll) within that schema. As far as successfully casting powers, eldar psykers are already the best in the game. Passing extra tests is not only complicated, but far, far too easy. I feel that having 1-3 farseers with active psychic abilities, 3-7 warlocks with passive abilities, and the "seer council" as a whole having a few active abilities is plenty enough.

I can agree with this just fine. I think this is a prime idea for the unit as a whole. Note I left out the CC abilities. I don't mind them being capable in CC. I think they already are, due to multiple wounds on Seers, Witchblades, and Fortune, Doom, Guide, all being potential options to buff your abilities. Like I said, I would not mind a passive Warlock power that makes their witchblade a Power Weapon. Remember that Banshees all have Power Weapons, and a few other Exarchs (Avengers, Scorpions) have options for power weapons themselves (they are Exarchs though). I don't mind the option existing for them to become viable in CC, though perhaps it should be more expensive than for another race to doing something similar (remember, they already have force weapons and permanent invulnerables, along with the powers mentioned).

As for the Warlocks, I think a few options for activated powers that do not require a test (as it is now) would be fine.

i think that witch blades should be power weapons

Eldrad wrote:i think that witch blades should be power weapons

Simply making them power weapons right out is a bit strong, not to mention that now you have to pay for that ability when some people maybe don't want to use them in that way. Kinda how pathfinders have to buy a devilfish for no good reason.

I thinking making it an optional power for warlocks and/or Farseers is just fine. A passive power, of course.

Power weapons are bringing them into the power builds area.
The general concensus is the council to buff other units.

Although if you've played dawn of war, the seer council in that is rather good in combat, fast, has lighting at their fingertips... etc etc etc...

A warlock with a witchblade that is also a power weapon is a model with WS/BS 4, S/T3, 1W, I4, 2A, and a 4++ invuln, and they always wound on a 2. Add in fortune, whatever else we give them, 1 warlock with enhance... thats getting silly.

If they retain jetbikes... thats a deathstar.

I think most of us are in agreement that the council should be a support unit. But honestly I'd like to see a front line offensive psychic unit, either as a separate entity or just a different build (probably best to leave it separate).

Warlocks: Very short ranged/offensive powers, witchblades/singingspears, no bonus to farseers

Council members: Long ranged/Support powers, bonus to Farseers.

Pyro-Druid wrote:I think most of us are in agreement that the council should be a support unit. But honestly I'd like to see a front line offensive psychic unit, either as a separate entity or just a different build (probably best to leave it separate).

Warlocks: Very short ranged/offensive powers, witchblades/singingspears, no bonus to farseers

Council members: Long ranged/Support powers, bonus to Farseers.

All sounds good. That means that Council members either need to be Warlocks with different abilities open to them, or a different unit all together.

I like the idea of a Farseer option being able to be taken on the melee unit (probably only 1, though), but at least 1 being necessary for the council.

We could do this - borrow a page from grey knights.

All witchblades wound on 2+

seer-initiates have normal witchblades (council members) have relatively minor support powers for the council

warlocks have witchblades that are power weapons (squad upgrade models, as they are now), have more potent squad-buff powers and offensive powers

farseers have witchblades which are power weapons and force weapons, and their loadout of powers

Could think about a new unit which is an elite unit, just warlocks, but it would have to be kept fairly small in order to avoid being just a deathstar in the elite slot.

Hmm, power weapon witchblades will just make the unit a death star. Over glorified if the cost per model is too high.

Now, I'll keep lurking a bit more, I don't consider Farseers or Warlocks in general in need of any real attention (only the unit conceptualization and certain psychic powers).

I don't know about warlocks, but I think Farseers witchblades should also count as power weapons.

I still think that Alanthrasl Swift blade should be put into our codex as an hq.

his stats could be like this
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
7 6 3 3 3 6 5 10 3 4++
Blood lines- Due to his sisters spirit stone inbetted into his blade he re roles all missed hits.

Fearless- he was a pirate king

Imuluan- Martial arts Alanthrasil mastered giving him one plus attack if he doesn't shoot that turn

War gear
Pulsar Pistol- ST 4 AP4 Pistol 1
Power sword
Grenades

or somthing like that...

So he's a phoenix lord, but not? (WS = PL WS, 5+1 (+1!) A base, reroll failed to-hit in CC, 4++....)

If we're going to add a phoenix lord, why not... add a phoenix lord?

8 attacks on the charge....

rivers64 wrote:I don't know about warlocks, but I think Farseers witchblades should also count as power weapons.

I disagree. Witchblades are absolutely amazing at taking out MCs, other high T models and vehicles. This is balanced by the fact that they're rather poor against excellent armor saves.

If you want to improve the Witchblade, I'd suggest a simple "It triples the user's strength in CC". That way, it would avoid FNP (on T4 or less) and cause ID on quite a few choice targets.

Making it always wound on 2+ and a power weapon turns the Farseer (or Warlocks if they get it) into a bit too CC oriented. It becomes a power fist that still strikes at base I.