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Read his back round on lexi and you will understand why i made his stats what they are and Yriels has some very simaler stats to phoenix lords. And no he isn't a phoenix lord he is a fricken Pirate Prince whos fleet was destroyed by orks. Read up.


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That was to Gyidion


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Also there is only one Phoenix lord with an 4++ save by the way

I'm distracted so I'll be quick. Witch Blades fine how they are, power weapons would just be too much. No to a second pirate prince special character, I don't see them as so common as to justify two. If we're adding more special characters, then we need a phoenix lord for each aspect... and if we're not, we need a phoenix lord for each aspect.

Ok well then warp spiders wouldnt work because he would die to much in the story line and in the game so shining spears


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Im just wondering but does any one want a battle psycher?


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we need somthing to compete with librarian

holy crap....

We don't need to add yet another phoenix lord - like character when we already don't have a phoenix lord for each aspect, and the PLs are underpowered as they are. Your character there has 8 attacks hitting on 3's on the charge, is a power weapon, and rerolls misses. That is better than pretty much every PL out there, without even going into the fact that he has a invuln save.

The HQ slot is too crowded as it is - if we want to start adding characters that are specific to background like pirates, or iyanden, or ulthwe, or altaioc, we can, but the PLs will have to go.

An offensive psyker isn't a bad idea, and if you read the previous pages you'll find some suggestions to that effect, but in terms of competing with librarians, we really don't need anything. We already make them our b**** with runes of warding, and eldar psykers aren't as flashy and dirty as human psykers.

Phoenix Lords could be made faceless. One common statline, a common set of special rules, then specific wargear depending on aspect.

If I remember my fluff right (although admittedly this is old fluff, not current), Phoenix Lords aren't immortal or corporeal, but rather a sort of ghost spirit in the Eldar psyche pool.
You'll probably correct me since I'm wrong, but you get what I mean.

Standard statline, battlefate, and for example be able to take aspect warriors as retinue.
Shining Spears lord would be armed with a special Star Lance, a Jetbike, and have the appropriate Exarch powers.

Essentially cram Phoenix Lords all into one slot, even more than they do at the moment.

I think we should do the Pheonix Lords after we have done each of the Aspects.

The problem with farseers to me is the overall value of Eldrad. Also there is the general increase in abilities of other psykers in the game.

Proposed:

Ancient Farseer: Any 4 abilities - may use 3 abilities per turn but no duplication. (This remains Eldrad's bonus - he is improved ancient allowing one duplication.)

Farseer: Any 3 Abilities - may use 2 abilities per turn.

The statlines as is are fine an ancient still dies fast but is a psychic pain. Attacks 2. Spirit Stones and both runes built into the cost of both farseers.

Witchblade - As is - perhaps one addition - forceblade option LD test and die. It is still not a power weapon but this makes it a 2+ wound + instant death if the wound is successful.

Singing Spear - 2 Hnd Wpn. Thrown as is. Possibly this is also a power weapon. This makes singing spears more deadly but at the cost of volume of attacks.

Warlock Battlemage - Ld 9 1 Farseer ability. 1 Passive warlock ability. No runes or ghosthelm. Attacks 2. These are squad leader upgrades only.

Warlock council - Ld 8. Passive abilities only.



Eldritch storm - Lg Blast, 18", S 3 AP 6. Glances any vehicle on a 6.
Guide - 6" As is.
Fortune - 6" As is.
Mind War - 12". 2d6 plus LD - Ld of target. This is the strength of 1 attack. Cover and invulnerable saves only.

Prescience - +1 to Sieze initiate or may designate one unit to outflank. (Note this is pre-game and automatic but uses one of the farseer psychic slots.)

(Would like to see more ideas like Prescience but can't think of one right now.)




Passive:
Enhance: +1 WS +1 I
Embolden: Reroll Ld test
Destructor: Hvy Flamer
Conceal: Stealth or 5++ cover save.

Seer council: 1 Ancient farseer and 0-2 Warlock Battlemage + 3-9 Warlocks.

Council warlocks do not have an individual ability. They qualify based on numbers of the current squad including farseer and battlemages.

1-4 Enhance
5-8 Enhance & Embolden
9-12 Enhance, Embolden & Extend (Add 12" range to all Farseer powers.)

In additon you may chose one seer council power - 1 Destructor per 3 Warlocks or +1 S -1 AP per 2 Warlocks for any farseer ability.

Example: 1 Farseer Ancient w 4 abilities (Fortune, Doom, Eldritch Storm & Prescience)
1 Battlemage w 1 ability (Mindwar) passive Enhance
1 Battlemage w 1 ablity (Eldritch Storm) passive Embolden
9 Warlocks

Squad has Enhance, Embolden and Extend. 3 Destructors or S6 AP3 for the two Eldritch storm and +3 S to the Mindwar.

This makes it a psychic juggernaut but differentiates it from other HTH aspect units. Cost of course is where this will play out as making it viable, a points-sink or a cheezy overkill unit.

I'm not really sure if you have all unanimously decided everything about the Dire Avengers, but when i read their codex fluff, they seem to be more in close combat instead of hanging around the back, so i was thinking of making them equal in stats to a DE warrior but giving them hit and run (they shoot-they fight-they retreat. and that every turn.)

After searching through thesaurus.com I found a name I like for the new council-warlocks: Verdant. I think renaming the existing warlocks would just over complicate things, keeping everything the same and adding in the ancient seer and the new council members would be less confusing. I'll update my last suggestion and re-work it with some of new ideas to see what you think

Gorechild wrote:
Seer Council: XX Points

Unit Size:
1 Farseer
You may add up to 2 additional Farseers for XX points each, For each Farseer in the unit you may include upto 3 Verdants for XX points per model.
If the unit consists of a single model its is an independant character, if more than 1 model is in the unit they are a retinue.

Wargear:
Ancient: Rune Armour 3++, Ghost helm, Witch Blade and Shuriken Pistol
Farseer: Rune Armour 4++, Ghost helm, Witch Blade and Shuriken Pistol
Verdant: Rune Armour 4++, Witch Blade and Shuriken Pistol

Special Rules:
Farseer: Fleet, Seer
Ancient Farseer: Fleet, Master Seer
Verdant: Fleet, Conseal, Distort, Amplify, Protect

Options:
If a Seer Council contain the full 12 models, one Farseer may be upgraded to a Ancient Farseer for XX points

Any model may repace their witch blade and Shuriken pistol with a Singing Spear for free

Each Farseer or Ancient Farseer can take up to 4 powers from:
Doom - XX points
Fortune - XX points
Guide - XX Points
ect ect ect...

Each Farseer may take 1 rune from the following (Ancient Farseer's may take up to two)
RoWarding - XX points
RoWitnessing - XX points
ect ect ect...

Just to explain a few things I added:
Seer: The farseer may use up to two different psychic powers a turn, any sucessful atempts to nulify either power must be re-rolled.

Master Seer: The Farseer may use up to three psychic powers a turn, each power may be used a maximumm of twice per turn, any sucessful atempts to nulify either power must be re-rolled.

Distort: Like nightshields (range of all weapons fired at unit is reduced by 6") units assaulting count as moving through difficult terrain

Amplify: All farseer powers cast within the unit have +6" range

Protect: short ranged shooting attack? unit assaulting counts as moving through dangerous terrain, models removed as casualty on a 1 or 2? not completely decided on this, but something to stop the council getting murdered by deep strikers.


This would stop us making yet another HQ entry, but still allows for an independant farseer as well as a council. Thoughts?

What is the problem people have with Swooping Hawks?

Do we want the council to sit at the back of the board humming and ahhing with some long range psyker powers or do we want a close range support unit?

OPTION 1:
Deploy the council, leave it alone, let it power up the army from afar.

OPTION 2:
Move the council with the army, supporting units nearby and generally hampering the enemy.

Option 1 would be great when needing to defend a scoring unit close to home, no1 wants to get close to a seer council, they still all have witchblades afterall. It'd also open up more possibilities, allowing them to cast to several units quite far apart.
I think option 2 would fit better with the Eldar tactics of getting close to do damage with the majority of the rest of the army, also they would be perfect for getting into the centre of an enemy formation and causing general mayhem of a non-lethal variety.

But i'll save my re-write until people decide =D i'm for option 2 myself

How about dire avengers for 10 pts
WS 4 BS 4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A1 LD 9
with an armor save of 4+?

dayve110 wrote:Do we want the council to sit at the back of the board humming and ahhing with some long range psyker powers or do we want a close range support unit?

OPTION 1:
Deploy the council, leave it alone, let it power up the army from afar.

OPTION 2:
Move the council with the army, supporting units nearby and generally hampering the enemy.

Option 1 would be great when needing to defend a scoring unit close to home, no1 wants to get close to a seer council, they still all have witchblades afterall. It'd also open up more possibilities, allowing them to cast to several units quite far apart.
I think option 2 would fit better with the Eldar tactics of getting close to do damage with the majority of the rest of the army, also they would be perfect for getting into the centre of an enemy formation and causing general mayhem of a non-lethal variety.

But i'll save my re-write until people decide =D i'm for option 2 myself

Im also with Option 2 for the same reasons you are.

I agree with the fire dragon idea, they`re called FIRE dragons,not "run up to a LRBT and turn it into oatmeal with 10 meltabombs" dragons.

Squigsquasher wrote:What is the problem people have with Swooping Hawks?

Generally speaking:
* High cost for low performance
* Strange performance (yoyo hawks)
* Poor return on the main weapon
* Odd Exarch / Phoenix Lord focus on melee
* Bad compatibility between main weapon (medium range, lasblaster) and secondary weapon (melee, haywire)

Essentially, you need to get a 20+ point model to melee to assault a tank but want it at as long range as possible to shoot at the infantry it contains. The roles are backwards compatible. Then we've got the fact that one of their most efficient roles is to act as an infinite range grenade launcher, meaning they don't really get to use their other abilities at all since they're yoyo-ing all the time... The concept of a ranged jump infantry targeting mainly light infantry is swell, but you pay a LOT extra for stuff that you either do exclusively or don't do at all.
It's like giving Devastators power weapons default, upping their price a LOT. Sure, it is theoretically useful, but you're either going to use your weapons or go into melee, not both at the same time (since you can't).

I believe they're on Farseers and Warlocks atm, though.

I think we're more focusing on the council rather than either Farseers or Warlocks specifically. Perhaps once we're done we should have another overview of the changes we've made and just have a day or two what could use work or not before moving on to the next unit.

dayve110 wrote:Do we want the council to sit at the back of the board humming and ahhing with some long range psyker powers or do we want a close range support unit?

OPTION 1:
Deploy the council, leave it alone, let it power up the army from afar.

OPTION 2:
Move the council with the army, supporting units nearby and generally hampering the enemy

...

Personally I want the option of both, as I've said earlier, either as two separate entities or just how you build them. As an additional idea on the build choice (names need work, as per usual):

Path - A Seer Council much choose either the support path or the offensive path. All warlocks in the council must choose a power from either the basic list or the path list chosen by the council. In addition all Farseer powers cast from the unit may be affected buy the path's council power

Support: Warlock powers (list would support staying back, so no destructor or enhance)
Council power - Amplify: Range of farseer powers is increased 1" for every living warlock in the council

Offensive: Warlock powers (list would support front line, so destructor and enhance)
Council power - Aura: Nonshooting Farseer powers that effect a unit (not a model) may reduce their range to 1" per 2(3 ???) warlocks. If this is done it effects all units within range.

I see no reason why there is anything wrong with alinthrasil's stats as i put i it i also think that pirat lords should be able to get pirate body gaurds


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On a more relivant topic i think we should have the council advance with the army but just out of reach of the enemy.

Obviously we're looking at two completely different units. I suggest we make the current seer council into support only to be taken with a farseer (though not mandatory). And add a whole other elites battle warlocks.

I'll let you guys duke it out for a while and write up something Friday, i seem to be getting good at the whole writing rules thing... apparently!
A;though making everyone happy will be difficult!

Mahtamori wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:What is the problem people have with Swooping Hawks?

Generally speaking:
* High cost for low performance
* Strange performance (yoyo hawks)
* Poor return on the main weapon
* Odd Exarch / Phoenix Lord focus on melee
* Bad compatibility between main weapon (medium range, lasblaster) and secondary weapon (melee, haywire)

Essentially, you need to get a 20+ point model to melee to assault a tank but want it at as long range as possible to shoot at the infantry it contains. The roles are backwards compatible. Then we've got the fact that one of their most efficient roles is to act as an infinite range grenade launcher, meaning they don't really get to use their other abilities at all since they're yoyo-ing all the time... The concept of a ranged jump infantry targeting mainly light infantry is swell, but you pay a LOT extra for stuff that you either do exclusively or don't do at all.
It's like giving Devastators power weapons default, upping their price a LOT. Sure, it is theoretically useful, but you're either going to use your weapons or go into melee, not both at the same time (since you can't).

I believe they're on Farseers and Warlocks atm, though.

I think I'll take my shot at something that seemingly isn't willing to be solved. Though I've never actually played a game, I work with the fluff enough on a daily basis to eke out what I know. That said, go for the softest morsels last when you start to devour me. ^^; I might request clarification or some additional assistance to fill in my gaps.

I would concur, like everyone else, that the performance to cost ratio is awful. So assuming the same cost, the performance has to go up in some way. This thought then forces us to define a role for him to specialize in, such that he isn't stuck between trying to haywire vehicles and snipe squads of GEQ. Fire Dragons are the pre-dominant force for AV (Though I too support Flamer diversity) and Warp Spiders would make better use of Haywire Grenades for rapid-punch AV.

So here's what my thoughts are:

- Maintain the current statline, with the addition of +1 to BS. To fly in the air and shoot targets requires far more skill than sitting on the ground and taking shots. I'm of the mind that not all Aspect Warriors deserve quite the same stats and there should be more customization according to ability.

- Focus on medium to long range GEQ elimination, with large emphasis on aggressive mobility. Warp Spiders are your fast, up-close anti-infantry option, and Dire Avengers serve as the medium range, flexible force. Dark Reapers serve more as MEQ killers and lack the mobility needed to respond to threats across the battlefield. A slight retailoring of abilities will be required to accomplish this goal.

- Eliminate the yo-yoing with the grenade pack. This has come up in previous suggestions and it makes sense, if you want a unit to maintain an actual presence on the battlefield instead of serving as a grenade launcher. The Grenade Pack can be used in another way, which I'll elucidate below. (Though I'll have to take some liberties in doing so)

- As for wargear, let's keep the basic Lasrifle, but buff the ROF to Assault 3, with R24", S3, and AP5. Possible buffs are an increase to R30" or S4, but first I'd like to hear what people have to say. Swooping Hawk Wings would remain as is (Jump Infantry, Deep Strike) with Fleet on the side. I concur that Hit & Run would be a useful power and there are several angles one could take with it and the Grenade Pack.

- Let's see what the Grenade Pack, that devilish little thing, can do now. Obviously the role of a mid to long ranged unit doesn't fall in line with being in close range, and under logical rules, a Grenade Pack would require the Hawks to be near an enemy unit if one were not to yo-yo with it.

1. At any time during the movement of a unit of Swooping Hawks, if an enemy unit is within 6" of any place the Swooping Hawks could move, the Hawks are allowed to divert off course and unleash their grenade packs from above. For every 2 Hawks in a unit who choose to do this, a S3, AP 5, Small Blast occurs, which may scatter D6". [Or every hawk --> single S3, AP5 hit, scatter applies] Roll once to determine the scatter of every grenade dropped. Units that drop Grenades then finish the rest of their move from the place where they chose to divert off course in any direction (even backwards!), but may not fire in the shooting phase. They still may move 6" in the shooting phase and may assault as normal. The total movement range possible during this skill is 24".

- The function of this skill is to adhere to the fluff as best as possible, while actually trying to make the Hawks' Grenades useful in their own right outside of the yo-yo way. If the concept seems interesting, please improve on it. Or if it's vastly imbalanced, what can be done to reign it within normal limits?

- Now for Exarch wargear and abilities. Correspondingly with the above change, the Exarch would retain the same statline as is, save +1 to BS. The Hawk's Talon and Sunrifle would still exist, under the following stat-lines:
Hawk's Talon: R24", S5, AP4, Assault 4
Sunrifle: R30", S3, AP4, Assault 6, Pinning

Now for Abilities:
Skyleap: The Exarch and his Squad can redeploy during their movement phase at any point and will do so via Deep Strike. If in HTH, the squad must pass a Hit & Run Test. Roll 1D6 for Scatter. (This is all Addict's, because it makes sense) Upon Deep Striking, the unit gains a 4+ Cover Save.

Death From Above: At any point in the movement phase, the Exarch and his Squad may choose to fire their weapons at an enemy unit while moving, but from a range of 15" alone. These attacks ignore cover saves, but allow the units fired at one round of shooting at the Exarch and his squad, who have a 5+ cover save. This action cannot occur in conjunction with Grenade Packs, but the Swooping Hawks may still participate in the shooting phase. (This is the most troublesome ability, because I worry of its potential imbalance)

It's late, and I don't feel like adding anything, so let's sum it all up.

Compared to the original:

- Increase in BS
- Increase in ROF on main weapon
- New Mechanism for Grenade Packs [This is more like an actual yo-yo, which is the only way to use the Packs without compromising the range needed for this kind of SH]
- No Haywire Nades
- Increase in AP of Exarch Weapons
- New Exarch Ability, which adds a round of fire, with restrictions.

All in all, I tried to satisfy the performance issue, get rid of deep striking Nades, made the main weapon a tad bit better, and fixed the compatibility issues (kind of). Baharroth, though, is a completely different kind of animal and will need a bit more thought (as well as sleep) to think about.

Without further ado, unleash the wolves. ^^;

dayve110 wrote:Do we want the council to sit at the back of the board humming and ahhing with some long range psyker powers or do we want a close range support unit?

OPTION 1:
Deploy the council, leave it alone, let it power up the army from afar.

OPTION 2:
Move the council with the army, supporting units nearby and generally hampering the enemy.

The problem I have with option 2 is mobility, if they need to be close to be effective then the council will either be confined to foot slogging lists or living in a wave serpent, whereas being a long range support unit they can be viable in all lists without depending on a serpent. I see the "leading from the front" to be more of the autarch approach, where as long range support would be better for the farseers. I'm clearly in the inority with this though so I'll stay quiet

rivers64 wrote:Obviously we're looking at two completely different units. I suggest we make the current seer council into support only to be taken with a farseer (though not mandatory). And add a whole other elites battle warlocks.

This I agree with, they can't effectivly perform both roles. Adding another (I'm guessing elite) unit will crowd the slot even more, but I can't see any other option other than biting the bullet and saying goodbye to the death star super killy seer council (I wouldnt complain about this though tbh).

Gorechild wrote:

Gorechild wrote:
Seer Council: XX Points

Unit Size:
1 Farseer
You may add up to 2 additional Farseers for XX points each, For each Farseer in the unit you may include upto 3 Verdants for XX points per model.
If the unit consists of a single model its is an independant character, if more than 1 model is in the unit they are a retinue.

Wargear:
Ancient: Rune Armour 3++, Ghost helm, Witch Blade and Shuriken Pistol
Farseer: Rune Armour 4++, Ghost helm, Witch Blade and Shuriken Pistol
Verdant: Rune Armour 4++, Witch Blade and Shuriken Pistol

Special Rules:
Farseer: Fleet, Seer
Ancient Farseer: Fleet, Master Seer
Verdant: Fleet, Conseal, Distort, Amplify, Protect

Options:
If a Seer Council contain the full 12 models, one Farseer may be upgraded to a Ancient Farseer for XX points

Any model may repace their witch blade and Shuriken pistol with a Singing Spear for free

Each Farseer or Ancient Farseer can take up to 4 powers from:
Doom - XX points
Fortune - XX points
Guide - XX Points
ect ect ect...

Each Farseer may take 1 rune from the following (Ancient Farseer's may take up to two)
RoWarding - XX points
RoWitnessing - XX points
ect ect ect...

Just to explain a few things I added:
Seer: The farseer may use up to two different psychic powers a turn, any sucessful atempts to nulify either power must be re-rolled.

Master Seer: The Farseer may use up to three psychic powers a turn, each power may be used a maximumm of twice per turn, any sucessful atempts to nulify either power must be re-rolled.

Distort: Like nightshields (range of all weapons fired at unit is reduced by 6") units assaulting count as moving through difficult terrain

Amplify: All farseer powers cast within the unit have +6" range

Protect: short ranged shooting attack? unit assaulting counts as moving through dangerous terrain, models removed as casualty on a 1 or 2? not completely decided on this, but something to stop the council getting murdered by deep strikers.


This would stop us making yet another HQ entry, but still allows for an independant farseer as well as a council. Thoughts?

Beautiful. Can't think of too much of a way to improve. Would each Verdent have a power of their own, or would the unit as a whole benefit from only one? Further, if they each have one, would the effects stack, or simply be redundancies?

Gorechild wrote:
This I agree with, they can't effectivly perform both roles. Adding another (I'm guessing elite) unit will crowd the slot even more, but I can't see any other option other than biting the bullet and saying goodbye to the death star super killy seer council (I wouldnt complain about this though tbh).

Unfortunately, this seems to be the case. I would hate to add in another elite (because I want to take 5 elites with only 3 slots), but I think this is the best solution. I think support council should be the primary function. A second "Verdent" (love the name) unit for CC would be ideal.

Woo finally some feedback Thanks TheRedArmy.
I was thinking that Ampify would stack (ie if 3 use it the range is increased by 18"), Depending on how it would work, protect's strength could be related to how many verdants use it that turn.
I'm not sure about distort, purely because if all 9 verdents used it you'd be able to reduce range by 54", making the council basically unshootable (amybe adding "the range of all weapons fired at unit is reduced by 6" down to a minimum of 6"" or 12"? or down to half its normal range?

I was thinking as the Verdant's to be the support for the council (as it's means new/fresh/growing). They would be the initiates to the Path of the Seer. Then leaving the warlocks as the new elite unit (like nobz, they'd both lead units and join together into a single hammer unit).

Distort sounds like a good psychic power, to replace one of the offensive ones if the Farseer (council) is moved to support and a different psycher is moved to offense.

As to the defense against deep strikers, well, we've discussed having Eldritch Storm be an anti-deep strike power instead. It could simply be that any unit which would land within 12" of the model casting Eldritch Storm suffers a mishap instead.
There are a lot of permutations we've hashed on this, naturally, but you get the effect. I'd add a small note to it stating it can't be used while inside a vehicle or building (sending up a lightning storm into the roof of a bunker is hazardous)


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P.s. I might've missed this, but an alternative to the Warlock problem could be found in the Dawn of War II game. You have a Warlock leader which is a potent and, for the game, powerful offensive psycher and then you get lesser Warlocks in the normal units.

This stronger warlock could be a HQ choice on it's own, focusing on martial arts and offensive psychic powers (battlefield application Mind War, etc) while lesser Warlocks are the ones you get as bodyguards in council and Guardian units - more appropriate for a unit sergeant.

The lesser warlocks could simply have a single passive power "Any unit containing at least one <lesser warlock> is emboldened, and are able to re-roll any failed leadership tests".
Destructor can then be made more powerful, same with Enhance, as befitting a solitary HQ choice with an estimate cost of around 80 excluding gear.

Mahtamori wrote: Distort sounds like a good psychic power, to replace one of the offensive ones if the Farseer (council) is moved to support and a different psycher is moved to offense.

I can't remember if I put this in the suggestion but I was intending to remove all the offensive powers from the farseer. As I see it they are a support unit and shoud be used purely for support, not with a few random offensive powers, offensive powers are the Warlocks job IMO.

Mahtamori wrote:As to the defense against deep strikers, well, we've discussed having Eldritch Storm be an anti-deep strike power instead. It could simply be that any unit which would land within 12" of the model casting Eldritch Storm suffers a mishap instead.
There are a lot of permutations we've hashed on this, naturally, but you get the effect. I'd add a small note to it stating it can't be used while inside a vehicle or building (sending up a lightning storm into the roof of a bunker is hazardous)

Rather than it being a fixed "within 12" of the unit" I'd like to see the Farseers call down the storm at range, something like "Place a marker anywhere within range, If the farseer can draw LOS to the marker it will not scatter, if it cannot be seen then it scatters 2D6". Until the next Eldar turn, any unit that deep strikes within 12" of the marker will suffer a mishap on a D6 roll of 1,2 or 3". It will allow them to support their army by protecting flanks and detering DS-ers from harrassing important units.

Gorechild wrote:Woo finally some feedback Thanks TheRedArmy.
I was thinking that Ampify would stack (ie if 3 use it the range is increased by 18"), Depending on how it would work, protect's strength could be related to how many verdants use it that turn.
I'm not sure about distort, purely because if all 9 verdents used it you'd be able to reduce range by 54", making the council basically unshootable (amybe adding "the range of all weapons fired at unit is reduced by 6" down to a minimum of 6"" or 12"? or down to half its normal range?

I also agree with Amplify stacking. I think protect, at least the way it is now, shouldn't be stacked. Protect could unleash an effect much like the Venomthrope from Tyranids - The council gets Defense Grenades, a cover save, and units assaulting count as dangerous. All that together might be too much, unless the power is heftily priced (which also means that you wouldn't want to take more than one with it), but two separate powers doing the two relevant things could work.

Protect (Verdent Power) XX points - The Seer Council counts as having defensive grenades, and any unit wishing to assault must take a dangerous terrain test. For every 2 models with this power beyond the first, the dangerous terrain test is failed on one higher (3 would cause the test to fail on 1-2, 5 would cause the test to fail on 1-3, etc.) [The language needs work, but the idea is understood, I think]

Warp Space (Verdent Power) XX points - The Seer Council counts as having both the Stealth USR for all models in the unit (including independent characters) and a permanent 6+ cover save. For every 2 models with this power beyond the first, the cover save increases by 1.

I like this because if you want to always run them in the open, you can spam Warp Space, or if you always get assaulted, you can make units short of SS Terminators very queasy.

Gorechild wrote:I was thinking as the Verdant's to be the support for the council (as it's means new/fresh/growing). They would be the initiates to the Path of the Seer. Then leaving the warlocks as the new elite unit (like nobz, they'd both lead units and join together into a single hammer unit).

It sucks that they are elite, but agreed. They don't fit anywhere else. Unfortunately. Just make Harlies Fast Attack. Do it, GW.

Mahtamori wrote:As to the defense against deep strikers, well, we've discussed having Eldritch Storm be an anti-deep strike power instead. It could simply be that any unit which would land within 12" of the model casting Eldritch Storm suffers a mishap instead.
There are a lot of permutations we've hashed on this, naturally, but you get the effect. I'd add a small note to it stating it can't be used while inside a vehicle or building (sending up a lightning storm into the roof of a bunker is hazardous)

Gorechild wrote:Rather than it being a fixed "within 12" of the unit" I'd like to see the Farseers call down the storm at range, something like "Place a marker anywhere within range, If the farseer can draw LOS to the marker it will not scatter, if it cannot be seen then it scatters 2D6". Until the next Eldar turn, any unit that deep strikes within 12" of the marker will suffer a mishap on a D6 roll of 1,2 or 3". It will allow them to support their army by protecting flanks and detering DS-ers from harrassing important units.

I'm kinda against making Storm a DS defense. It makes sense, and I definitely get the merit, but I think storm could still be close to what it is today (more effective against vehicles) and have a different power for Deep Strikers. I don't know in what manifestation it would take (maybe like the rumor of the new GK anti-DS power) and keep Storm as a pretty ineffective anti-infantry blast that has uses against vehicles.

...On second thought, the DS power is warming up to me. Perhaps we could make it an entire reserve thing - The Eldar player could make Outflankers re-roll and DS re-roll too.

I can't remember if I put this in the suggestion but I was intending to remove all the offensive powers from the farseer. As I see it they are a support unit and shoud be used purely for support, not with a few random offensive powers, offensive powers are the Warlocks job IMO.

Agreed.

The thing is, if we allow a more powerful Warlock (since I am limited to 3rd and 4th edition codex for fluff, how does this work with fluff?), Eldritch Storm is a good power to have as reserve for them. At least in general shape and form.

If Warlock is not chosen for this, I do remember from 3rd edition that Craftworlds are repositories of highly advanced weapons of mass extinction. Essentially, you could just dump powerful (one-shot?) abilities on an Autarch to make him more offensive, for example.

But, the big question for Council, Guardian, and HQ:
Are Warlocks mini-psychers or normal psychers? Is there room for venerable Warlocks, and if so how are the more normal Warlocks shaped?

Looks like the Verdants take the place of Warlocks in Gorechild's suggestion. Let me just paint how I'd envision a Venerable :

Roughly 60 points
WS 6 | BS 6 | S 3 | T 3 | W 3 | I 6 | A 3 | LD 10
Witchblade, Shuriken Pistol, Ghost Helm (4+), Rune Armour (4++)
Choose at least one psychic power (rolled as in core rule book):
Destructor (20 points). Template, S6 AP3.
Eldritch Storm (25 points). Large Blast, S6 AP-, Barrage (unit(s) will move as if in difficult terrain in their next movement phase).
Soul Rend (10 points). Use at any time a wound with a witchblade or singing spear has been confirmed. The wounded model suffers instant death and may not take an armour save against this attack.
Buffet (20 points). Use instead of shooting. Usable in close combat. All non-vehicles and non-monstrous creatures under a template are pushed straight away from the Warlock until they no longer touch the template and make an immediate dangerous terrain test.

Mahtamori wrote:
But, the big question for Council, Guardian, and HQ:
Are Warlocks mini-psychers or normal psychers? Is there room for venerable Warlocks, and if so how are the more normal Warlocks shaped?

To be honest I don't really see the need for a Warlock unit or HQ. I though (originally) that the only reason we were splitting the warocks was so that we could make them solid unit leaders without completely breaking the Council? If we made the existing Warlocks really worth 30-40 points as a unit leader for Guardians, Storm Guardians and Wraithguard, they could be the proper psykers that we were trying to introduce across the army. Then replacing 'locks with the Verdants would mean the Seer Council could still perform brilliantly doing what its meant to do, but not be the deathstar that it is in 4th Ed.

Mahtamori wrote:
Looks like the Verdants take the place of Warlocks in Gorechild's suggestion. Let me just paint how I'd envision a Venerable :

Roughly 60 points
WS 6 | BS 6 | S 3 | T 3 | W 3 | I 6 | A 3 | LD 10
Witchblade, Shuriken Pistol, Ghost Helm (4+), Rune Armour (4++)
Choose at least one psychic power (rolled as in core rule book):
Destructor (20 points). Template, S6 AP3.
Eldritch Storm (25 points). Large Blast, S6 AP-, Barrage (unit(s) will move as if in difficult terrain in their next movement phase).
Soul Rend (10 points). Use at any time a wound with a witchblade or singing spear has been confirmed. The wounded model suffers instant death and may not take an armour save against this attack.
Buffet (20 points). Use instead of shooting. Usable in close combat. All non-vehicles and non-monstrous creatures under a template are pushed straight away from the Warlock until they no longer touch the template and make an immediate dangerous terrain test.

If we are going with a Warlock HQ then this seems ok.
Destructor - Greatly improved, don't know if there is precident for anything like this (appart from being placed on a tank). I think 20pts is a little low for the possibility of being able to wipe out am in-cover marine unit in 1 pop. Costed appropriatly I could get on board with it though.
Eldritch Storm - My first impression was "night spinner lite", I don't know how useful it would be if the "counts as being in difficult and dangerous terrain" are more widely available though. I'd see much more use for it if it was.... Large Blast, S6 AP-, Barrage (Area under the template counts as impassable to any deep striking units until the start of the next Eldar turn).
Soul Rend- Again I like this but just to clarify, would this be usable muliple times a turn? The way its phrased "any time" could suggest you you can just use it on any wound that goes through, if so i think 10pts is too much. If its only for 1 wound if you sucessfully pass a test, then I like it.
Buffet- I llike this a lot, I think it could end up with lots of rules queries, but who cares, it sounds interesting

Essentially, they all follow the rules for psychic powers, NOT Warlock powers.
Destructor - it's meant to wipe Astarte out, it's used at near point blank where they can protect themselves with Psychic Hoods, after all.
Eldritch Storm - is a bit improved, but I agree it's essentially a Night Spinner. Note however that the wording on the difficult terrain is different (it won't go away if the unit is charged). The power as I wrote it is probably too expensive.
Soul Rend - Normal psychic rules. One use per player turn. I did not intend to make you able to pick a Witchblade Force Weapon. Does work with thrown Singing Spears, though
"Any time" is to be read similar to "Used at the beginning of the turn". Nothing forces you to use it. Poorly written, I agree, though.

Buffet - you have no idea how many times I re-wrote this. First it was a power that simply pushed one target away from the Warlock (Force Push), but then I figured that it didn't make much sense or difference other than denying one single enemy uber-mensch a turn of CC.
Simply pushing the enemy away with a 1/6 chance of suffering a wound is in itself powerful. It won't save the Warlock's unit from an assault the next turn, but it will through a serious dampener on an enemy's ability to fight in CC for a turn until they are once again allowed to close in.
(Also note that the Warlock is in this incarnation a decent melee fighter, and Buffet is likely to remove enemies from his range of attack as well - thus being a slight deterrent from abusing it)

Well. The big question for a future codex stands: where are the Warlocks. I don't see them as anything less common than an apothecary, and particularly Ulthwé players have a lot of them.
Guardian sergeants?
Farseer minders?
Apothecary-esque?
Death Company-esque?

[hint] I'm waiting to see if dayve will throw a Seer Council/Farseer suggestion out there if he's lurking [/hint]

I'd like to see the Warlocks as a unit leader, but also a powerful model in its own right (like a Nob). Swap the combat prowess and 2nd wound for some nasty mid range psychic coolness. We could maybe go back to the previous suggestion of being able to use a Warlock to determine LOS for nearby Farseers, but if we stick with the ampify power, this might not be needed. YMMV.

I think a big thing we need to tackle now is the Farseer wargear. should we keep it simple (shuripistol + witchblade or SSpear + ghosthelm and runes)? or does anyone have anything more creative to chip in?
We seem to be loosing momentum and getting bogged down in something when there is so much more that we haven't been through properly. Once we've come to a conclusion on the other Farseer stuff we can have another look at warlocks.