The Citadel Finecast metal to resin change thread.

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**Inanimate**

Quote wrote:Tyranids
TYRANID ZOANTHROPE £15.50 – $25 – was $22.25 – hike + $2.75

TYRANID TYRANT GUARD £15.50 – $25 – was $22.25 – hike + $2.75

TYRANID HIVE GUARD £15.50 – $25 – was $20 – hike + $5

Not a massive change, but they went from really expensive to even more really expensive. I'm feeling like it's better just to buy 3 boxes of Warriors (+ some bits from Trygons and Carnifex) instead and just convert them into Zoanthropes, Hive/Tyrant Guard. None of those are even that great sculpts to begin with (well, except Zoanthropes).

**Klueless**

Does anyone else find it ironic that they are using a cheaper material to make the models & so are putting the prices up???

Plastic Zoanthropes would have been nice 5 years ago though!

**fullheadofhair**

aka_mythos wrote:
maxinux wrote:In terms of the price increase, there is no reason other than increasing GW margins. First, the global inflation rate is roughly 2% to 3%, so there should be very little economic pressure on their costs. Yes, they will have some capital costs associated with the conversion of the molds etc., but these will quickly be offset by a reduction in material and transportation costs...
Its a matter of alternative cost; the price of the status quo was higher than making a change. So they made the change. The by product was an improved quality. This is most certainly because of the price of tin, the main metal in the white metal GW uses for casting went up 60% since this day last year. From ~$8/lb to ~$13/lb.

It'd be great if GW could afford to eat that, but I think thats unreasonable. When you look at their investors information page, you can see their overall after tax profit margin, 9.5%. Just to get that meager 9.5% return, GW has to mark up the price of its products 400%... you can get this figure by comparing their cost of sales to their revenue. To put it another way, for GW to make 10 cents on the dollar, a miniature that cost GW $5 to make has to sell for $20. The 60% shift in tin price is the equivalent of that same $5 miniature suddenly costing GW $6.50 and to retain the same overall margin they have to sell it for $26... roughly a 23% bump in retail price.

People have done a break down by percentage of the cost increase for these different models; relatively few exceed 20%, but without the change of material the prices would have all jumped by at least 23%.

So while I agree price increase are bad, I don't think the numbers are lying and I think GW was justified in raising prices and changing materials in this fashion. This was inevitable as long as GW held overall margins steady. We would either see a 23% price increase or a 20% increase with improved casting properties; between the two we got the better deal.

Dude, totally faulty logic. Your example assumes that ALL costs have gone up 23%. That $5 in costs is made up of materials and costs to support making it. The element that needed to rise 20% was the material costs only - this should be offset to some degree by the drop in warehousing and selling where strategies over last 5 yrs have significantly cut costs.

**warboss**

GW has also in previous announcements to investors BRAGGED that material costs make up a small percentage of their actual cost and increases there don't affect their profitability much. Of course, that position changed when they needed a reason for a price increase and had no other (besided the obvious greed).

**HAZZER**

So, are all of the prices for charaters going to go up when GW changes to resen?

**Eilif**

HAZZER wrote:So, are all of the prices for charaters going to go up when GW changes to resen?

From the lists that are circulating, it looks like most, but not all the charachters are going up. Also, it appears that some of the metals that recently got released, or a price hike, or alre already among the most expensive are not being raised now.

Dante doesn't seem to be getting a raise, but he's already 17 bucks...

**blasto0341**

Is anyone actually happy they are making new models? I mean damn, if youre hobby is costing more money either: A. Find a new hobby B. Look for other ways to help pay for it. I bet half of these people here are ones who play in 'ard boyz tournaments with half put together models and or when they open their cases their models look like lego boxes filled with space marines. Lol, everyone just complains about the price, but nobody is excited about the thought of new models!I am happy they are raising the prices, maybe it will weed out the people who dont paint or model their armies!

**Slinky**

blasto0341 wrote:I am happy they are raising the prices, maybe it will weed out the people who dont paint or model their armies!

Hmm. Nice attitude...

**Kilkrazy**

Miraclefish wrote:Sorry, a Tau Sniper Drone team now costs £23!?

.

They are still crap as well.

**blasto0341**

Slinky wrote:
blasto0341 wrote:I am happy they are raising the prices, maybe it will weed out the people who dont paint or model their armies!

Hmm. Nice attitude...

I don't spend hours and hours painting and modeling my stuff to just have a terrible game against people who dump their army out of a bucket onto the table. Why else would GW make their awesome terrain tables for painted armies only?

**Oldgrue**

blasto0341 wrote: Why else would GW make their awesome terrain tables for painted armies only?

**BrassScorpion**

I don't spend hours and hours painting and modeling my stuff to just have a terrible game against people who dump their army out of a bucket onto the table.

Well said.

**Eilif**

blasto0341 wrote:Is anyone actually happy they are making new models?

These aren't new models, they're old models (possibly slighty modified) in a new material for more money.

blasto0341 wrote: I bet half of these people here are ones who play in 'ard boyz tournaments with half put together models and or when they open their cases their models look like lego boxes filled with space marines.

Unsubstatiated and most likley incorrect. You're judging a hundred or so posters for no reason. For all you know they could be just like me and be the kind of gamer who refuses to put unpainted figs on the table.

blasto0341 wrote:!I am happy they are raising the prices, maybe it will weed out the people who dont paint or model their armies!

Elitist and rediculous. I've been in this hobby for quite a while. With the possible exception of extremely high end models (and I've seen alot of unpainted forge world stuff) I've never seen anything that would point to any correlation between the cost of a model and how likely someone is to paint it. If anything, as the price of the hobby has gone up I -and many others- have seen an increase in the number of unpainted figures on the board. I share your pain about unpainted armies, but raising prices is not the way to fix it.

It seems to me that raising prices has only served to nuture the idea that this is a hobby that you buy your way into (like CCG's), rather than a hobby that you paint your way into.

**Lord Scythican**

TBD wrote:
91-41 VAMPIRE COUNTS BLOOD KNIGHTS £61.50

These guys are now tied with the Stompa & Baneblade as the most expensive kit

Wow so that would be like $87.00+ in dollars? Ok that is pretty bad. There better be a price drop in these if they hit resin. The whole reason why they were so expensive before is because they were metal right? If they are made into resin, they shouldn't cost more than a box of Chaos Knights.

**Breotan**

Lord Scythican wrote:Wow so that would be like $87.00+ in dollars? Ok that is pretty bad.

Web site says $90. For five models. Yes, they're (dead) humans on (dead) horses but so are Empire and Bretonnian knights (except for the dead part) which are 8 for $35.00.

**Lord Scythican**

Breotan wrote:
Lord Scythican wrote:Wow so that would be like $87.00+ in dollars? Ok that is pretty bad.
Web site says $90. For five models. Yes, they're (dead) humans on (dead) horses but so are Empire and Bretonnian knights (except for the dead part) which are 8 for $35.00.

Wow...ok well if I play Vampire Counts anytime soon, I guess I will be buying from Mantic.

**blasto0341**

Possibly modified = new for me. And from what I see at 'ard boyz tournaments, it is plastic bins full of broken unpainted mini's that people use. Yeah, well maybe you call me an elitist but the painting awards I win for my army speak for itself. I was refering to how the cost will drive people out. I was wishful that it would be the people who dont put love into their armies. Are hot dogs the same price as steak? No, you pay more for the better product. Simple. Why else has GW been dominating for 20 years?

**Phototoxin**

fullheadofhair wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:
maxinux wrote:In terms of the price increase, there is no reason other than increasing GW margins. First, the global inflation rate is roughly 2% to 3%, so there should be very little economic pressure on their costs. Yes, they will have some capital costs associated with the conversion of the molds etc., but these will quickly be offset by a reduction in material and transportation costs...
Its a matter of alternative cost; the price of the status quo was higher than making a change. So they made the change. The by product was an improved quality. This is most certainly because of the price of tin, the main metal in the white metal GW uses for casting went up 60% since this day last year. From ~$8/lb to ~$13/lb.

It'd be great if GW could afford to eat that, but I think thats unreasonable. When you look at their investors information page, you can see their overall after tax profit margin, 9.5%. Just to get that meager 9.5% return, GW has to mark up the price of its products 400%... you can get this figure by comparing their cost of sales to their revenue. To put it another way, for GW to make 10 cents on the dollar, a miniature that cost GW $5 to make has to sell for $20. The 60% shift in tin price is the equivalent of that same $5 miniature suddenly costing GW $6.50 and to retain the same overall margin they have to sell it for $26... roughly a 23% bump in retail price.

People have done a break down by percentage of the cost increase for these different models; relatively few exceed 20%, but without the change of material the prices would have all jumped by at least 23%.

So while I agree price increase are bad, I don't think the numbers are lying and I think GW was justified in raising prices and changing materials in this fashion. This was inevitable as long as GW held overall margins steady. We would either see a 23% price increase or a 20% increase with improved casting properties; between the two we got the better deal.

Dude, totally faulty logic. Your example assumes that ALL costs have gone up 23%. That $5 in costs is made up of materials and costs to support making it. The element that needed to rise 20% was the material costs only - this should be offset to some degree by the drop in warehousing and selling where strategies over last 5 yrs have significantly cut costs.

If they need to sell something at 400% mark up to make 9.5% profit there is something fundamentally wrong.

Also how much tin is in plastic?

**Darth Bob**

Lord Scythican wrote:
Breotan wrote:
Lord Scythican wrote:Wow so that would be like $87.00+ in dollars? Ok that is pretty bad.
Web site says $90. For five models. Yes, they're (dead) humans on (dead) horses but so are Empire and Bretonnian knights (except for the dead part) which are 8 for $35.00.

Wow...ok well if I play Vampire Counts anytime soon, I guess I will be buying from Mantic.

http://gamezoneminiatures.de/vampire.html

Gamezone makes very sexy not-Bloodknights. Still kinda pricy, but they look way cooler than the GW ones, are cheaper, and are metal if you don't like the new resin.

I'm planning on using these for my Bloodknights since GW's are now so expensive it's laughable. I thought the Blood Knights were WAY overpriced before, but this is just silly.

**BrassScorpion**

Bloodknights have been $90 for 5 models in the US for a couple years at least ever since the two big metal model price jumps in 7 months the first of which happened when the current Space Marine range was released. If they cost more than that in Finecast, that would really be something.

**Acardia**

blasto0341 wrote:Possibly modified = new for me. And from what I see at 'ard boyz tournaments, it is plastic bins full of broken unpainted mini's that people use. Yeah, well maybe you call me an elitist but the painting awards I win for my army speak for itself. I was refering to how the cost will drive people out. I was wishful that it would be the people who dont put love into their armies. Are hot dogs the same price as steak? No, you pay more for the better product. Simple. Why else has GW been dominating for 20 years?

OT: Our preliminary round of 12 featured 12 armies at were at least WIP painted. Everyone at least had units that were complete. I still had fateweaver all shiny because I was a lazy punk and my FLGS didn't get him in until a week before. I will let you know how the standards have changed at round two.

**Agamemnon2**

blasto0341 wrote:No, you pay more for the better product. Simple. Why else has GW been dominating for 20 years?

In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

**Oldgrue**

blasto0341 wrote:Yeah, well maybe you call me an elitist but the painting awards I win for my army speak for itself.... I was wishful that it would be the people who dont put love into their armies.

Indeed, it speaks volumes about you.

blasto0431 wrote: Are hot dogs the same price as steak? No, you pay more for the better product. Simple.

The Steak analogy for GW product is arguable. Cost does not equal quality.

I'm forced to reconsider GW product after this latest round of price increases. The minimum cost of entry continues to increase out of proportion to other hobbies. Its a pity simply because there are less people to play against - and lots of them don't mind my having the painting skills of an epileptic fingerpainter and don't care about awards for my dollies.

**Eilif**

blasto0341 wrote:Possibly modified = new for me. And from what I see at 'ard boyz tournaments, it is plastic bins full of broken unpainted mini's that people use. Yeah, well maybe you call me an elitist but the painting awards I win for my army speak for itself. I was refering to how the cost will drive people out. I was wishful that it would be the people who dont put love into their armies. Are hot dogs the same price as steak? No, you pay more for the better product. Simple. Why else has GW been dominating for 20 years?

I should have been more clear. My elitist comment was referring to your statement that you were glad they were raising prices. As I mentioned earlier I don't field any unpainted figures either.

I used the word "Rediculous" to refer to your hope that raising prices would drive out those players who don't paint. As I've already explained, there is no paralell between higher prices and painted figures.

**TBD**

Lord Scythican wrote:
TBD wrote:
91-41 VAMPIRE COUNTS BLOOD KNIGHTS £61.50

These guys are now tied with the Stompa & Baneblade as the most expensive kit

Wow so that would be like $87.00+ in dollars? Ok that is pretty bad. There better be a price drop in these if they hit resin. The whole reason why they were so expensive before is because they were metal right? If they are made into resin, they shouldn't cost more than a box of Chaos Knights.

That 61.50 is the price for the new resin models . They used to cost 51.25 (pounds).

In the US the price will probably go up to $99,-

**Inanimate**

Klueless wrote:Does anyone else find it ironic that they are using a cheaper material to make the models & so are putting the prices up???

Yes and no. Cheaper material would lead to less expenses and therefore lead to more money earned, but that's after some time. This transition costs money. It's not like they start saving money on day one. This price hike could therefore be a way of compensating for that initial loss. These models also seem to be targeted against a more experienced kind of modeller, and not all stores will stock everything (think I read that somewhere). This will make the product harder to sell, and therefore prices go up. Oh... and because they can, ofcourse!

blasto0341 wrote:I was refering to how the cost will drive people out.

It will drive all the wrong people out. The people you are referring to will still buy their buckets of ruined marines off eBay from kids who got tired of them for practically no money. I do spend quite some time on my models, and even though I'm not a great painter, I consider myself decent at least. This price hike is driving me away, at least from buying the finesculpts (plastic kits will still be ok priced since I have Maelstrom). Not because I can't afford or don't like the hobby, but because it's fething ridiculous to spend that much money on something like that (my opinion). I could afford buying $10 bottles of water daily, and still have money, but I wouldn't because it's fething stupid.

**blasto0341**

Lolz at the people raging, just be happy you're not diggin ditches in a 3rd world country, but you're playing an awesome game. Yeah, it costs money such is life. It sucks you can't save every paycheck and let companies hand their product out for free to everyone. But complaining about it on a forum isn't helping the matter. If you hate GW, don't play their games or buy their product it is very simple.

Oldgrue- C'mon really? You should pick up basket weaving, I hear it's pretty cheap. Yeah, I take pride in my "Dollies". You should refer them as " Ork dollies" thank you very much. =D

**Darth Bob**

blasto0341 wrote:Lolz at the people raging, just be happy you're not diggin ditches in a 3rd world country, but you're playing an awesome game. Yeah, it costs money such is life. It sucks you can't save every paycheck and let companies hand their product out for free to everyone. But complaining about it on a forum isn't helping the matter. If you hate GW, don't play their games or buy their product it is very simple.

Oldgrue- C'mon really? You should pick up basket weaving, I hear it's pretty cheap. Yeah, I take pride in my "Dollies". You should refer them as " Ork dollies" thank you very much. =D

It's not the fact that the hobby is expensive. It's the fact that the hobby is becoming erratically more and more expensive with no rhyme or reason other than the company's obvious greed.

**Oldgrue**

blasto0341 wrote:
Oldgrue- C'mon really? You should pick up basket weaving, I hear it's pretty cheap.

I actually gave it up - pisses me off. Long story.

**Holdenstein**

TBD wrote:
Lord Scythican wrote:
TBD wrote:
91-41 VAMPIRE COUNTS BLOOD KNIGHTS £61.50

These guys are now tied with the Stompa & Baneblade as the most expensive kit

Wow so that would be like $87.00+ in dollars? Ok that is pretty bad. There better be a price drop in these if they hit resin. The whole reason why they were so expensive before is because they were metal right? If they are made into resin, they shouldn't cost more than a box of Chaos Knights.

That 61.50 is the price for the new resin models . They used to cost 51.25 (pounds).

In the US the price will probably go up to $99,-

And yet they are still less expensive than the Retribution Destors unit. This is what I don't understand about the "I'm going to PP" mentality. The way things are going PP is going to make GW look good value, even after this latest set of price rises.
If you want low cost gaming: go historical.