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Abaddon is back! And better than ever!

 koooaei wrote:
Abaddon is back! And better than ever!

Eh, really?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Abaddon is back! And better than ever!

Eh, really?

His stats are pretty solid. It's been awhile since I looked at them but I seem to recall thinking he might be able to take Gulliman. don't get me wrong I'd be putting my money on Papa Smurf but Abbaddon's got a decent shot of it

BrianDavion wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Abaddon is back! And better than ever!

Eh, really?

His stats are pretty solid. It's been awhile since I looked at them but I seem to recall thinking he might be able to take Gulliman. don't get me wrong I'd be putting my money on Papa Smurf but Abbaddon's got a decent shot of it

I was kind of disappointed with his weapons: both of them are -3AP not -4AP and they kept the damn Daemon weapon rule. Not saying that Abaddon won't still be able to go toe to toe with most characters but I don't really think he's gotten better.

As a small side note, leaked Space Marines Wargear list includes Reaper Autocannon. I'm mentioning this because earlier it has been only available for Chaos as far as I know.
It is a beast of a weapon, Heavy 4, 36", S 7, AP -1, D 1 so should come as no surprise GW is going to give it to Space Marines too.

Obliterators look very underwhelming, I'm let down by this.

Anyone heard any juicy leaks of the <Legion> things? I have been browsing the internet for these but have not found anything yet. I guess I need to wait until Saturday to see the Index myself at local GW store?

Ghorgul wrote:
As a small side note, leaked Space Marines Wargear list includes Reaper Autocannon. I'm mentioning this because earlier it has been only available for Chaos as far as I know.
It is a beast of a weapon, Heavy 4, 36", S 7, AP -1, D 1 so should come as no surprise GW is going to give it to Space Marines too.

GAAAAAHHHH!
*Breaks stuff*
FRAAAAGHHRRFFFBBRRAAAAHH!
*Breaks more stuff*

(This is why we can't have nice things... Scratch that, we can have nice things but we have to share)

We won't see any legion stuff until the codexes come out later, sadly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:
As a small side note, leaked Space Marines Wargear list includes Reaper Autocannon. I'm mentioning this because earlier it has been only available for Chaos as far as I know.
It is a beast of a weapon, Heavy 4, 36", S 7, AP -1, D 1 so should come as no surprise GW is going to give it to Space Marines too.

GAAAAAHHHH!
*Breaks stuff*
FRAAAAGHHRRFFFBBRRAAAAHH!
*Breaks more stuff*

(This is why we can't have nice things... Scratch that, we can have nice things but we have to share)

No, SMs were able to take them previously on something that was originally forgeworld but got pushed over to GW. It was mentioned on B&C but I don't remember what it was now. Maybe one of the dreads?

Probably the cataphactii and tartaros sets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://imgur.com/a/m4L2J

Good summary of stuff so far.

I must be missing something here... since characters are no longer joining units, do they also have to make a separate charge roll? I see the intervention rule for defense but am I missing something that says a character charges along with the unit he's hiding with?

That will really rustle my jimmies if a unit makes the charge roll of 8" and the chaos lord rolls a 6" and fails, sitting in the middle of the field with egg on his face waiting to eat all the bullets.

Please tell me something was shown that this isn't the case.

 mrhappyface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Abaddon is back! And better than ever!

Eh, really?

His stats are pretty solid. It's been awhile since I looked at them but I seem to recall thinking he might be able to take Gulliman. don't get me wrong I'd be putting my money on Papa Smurf but Abbaddon's got a decent shot of it

I was kind of disappointed with his weapons: both of them are -3AP not -4AP and they kept the damn Daemon weapon rule. Not saying that Abaddon won't still be able to go toe to toe with most characters but I don't really think he's gotten better.

U're kiddin' right? No-scatter ds allows him to get where he needs to be. Fearless and re-rolls to-hit for BL guyz nearby, 7 wounds, halves the damage taken, Daemon weapons no longer force him to become ws1 and instead he can just strike with a claw. He's the man. If you want, roll him in a lr that won't insta explode now. And get this 2-d turn charge.

As is, you can now perform devastating termie combi-melta drops together with Abaddon. No stupid challenges! Drakes for the most reliable 1-st turn charge in the game to hurt heavier weapons and to force bauble wraps, marines or zerkers in rhinos...so many possibilities!

Man, csm are always unhappy.

 Galas wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
As much as Berzerkers needed a return to good form, I truly hate it when you have to resort to special rules in order to boost a certain unit's effectiveness.

I mean, why not just giving them extra attacks in the profile, instead of a special rule which allows them to attack twice per assault phase?

These kind of things really stink of the same stupid rule design of the latest years.

Because thats allow counterplay to your opponent. He can choose to counterattack the Berzerker unit before he attacks another time in that combat phase, instead of being totally anihilate for being charged by 6 attacks Berzerkers without reaction.
And attacking two times in a combat phase means that those berzerker can make two movements of pile in, so 3"+3" movement to drag other units to the meele.

One shouldn't call rules stupid before analizing them with deept.

Hadn't looked at it that way. Thanks.

Considering the price reduction (I understand the "points per model" shown means without any special gear but with their base gear, right? I mean, the chainsword and the bolt pistol. I'm a bit lost on this) and the ability to charge after disembarking a vehicle, they look pretty menacing now.

 koooaei wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Abaddon is back! And better than ever!

Eh, really?

His stats are pretty solid. It's been awhile since I looked at them but I seem to recall thinking he might be able to take Gulliman. don't get me wrong I'd be putting my money on Papa Smurf but Abbaddon's got a decent shot of it

I was kind of disappointed with his weapons: both of them are -3AP not -4AP and they kept the damn Daemon weapon rule. Not saying that Abaddon won't still be able to go toe to toe with most characters but I don't really think he's gotten better.

U're kiddin' right? No-scatter ds allows him to get where he needs to be. Fearless and re-rolls to-hit for BL guyz nearby, 7 wounds, halves the damage taken, Daemon weapons no longer force him to become ws1 and instead he can just strike with a claw. He's the man. If you want, roll him in a lr that won't insta explode now. And get this 2-d turn charge.

As is, you can now perform devastating termie combi-melta drops together with Abaddon. No stupid challenges! Drakes for the most reliable 1-st turn charge in the game to hurt heavier weapons and to force bauble wraps, marines or zerkers in rhinos...so many possibilities!

Man, csm are always unhappy.

yeah it's kinda amazing, GW dumps amazing awesome stuff on them, and then they sort of sit there, sulk, point at the space marines and scream "BUT I WANT THAT TOO!" CSMs look to be in a pretty good position in 8th, I bet they're gonna be top tier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Korinov wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
As much as Berzerkers needed a return to good form, I truly hate it when you have to resort to special rules in order to boost a certain unit's effectiveness.

I mean, why not just giving them extra attacks in the profile, instead of a special rule which allows them to attack twice per assault phase?

These kind of things really stink of the same stupid rule design of the latest years.

Because thats allow counterplay to your opponent. He can choose to counterattack the Berzerker unit before he attacks another time in that combat phase, instead of being totally anihilate for being charged by 6 attacks Berzerkers without reaction.
And attacking two times in a combat phase means that those berzerker can make two movements of pile in, so 3"+3" movement to drag other units to the meele.

One shouldn't call rules stupid before analizing them with deept.

Hadn't looked at it that way. Thanks.

Considering the price reduction (I understand the "points per model" shown means without any special gear but with their base gear, right? I mean, the chainsword and the bolt pistol. I'm a bit lost on this) and the ability to charge after disembarking a vehicle, they look pretty menacing now.

it's without any gear at all, but bolt pistol and chain sword should be free.

 Goat wrote:
I must be missing something here... since characters are no longer joining units, do they also have to make a separate charge roll? I see the intervention rule for defense but am I missing something that says a character charges along with the unit he's hiding with?

That will really rustle my jimmies if a unit makes the charge roll of 8" and the chaos lord rolls a 6" and fails, sitting in the middle of the field with egg on his face waiting to eat all the bullets.

Please tell me something was shown that this isn't the case.

Characters cant hide in units they just cant be targeted if they are not the closet unit. So if your unit makes the charge and your Chaos Lord doesn't he can take the egg off his face and make some breakfast without having to worry about getting shot at.

Bolt Pistol and Chain Swords are free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Probably the cataphactii and tartaros sets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://imgur.com/a/m4L2J

Good summary of stuff so far.

So am I missing something what are "Malefic Talons"?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I must be missing something here... since characters are no longer joining units, do they also have to make a separate charge roll? I see the intervention rule for defense but am I missing something that says a character charges along with the unit he's hiding with?

That will really rustle my jimmies if a unit makes the charge roll of 8" and the chaos lord rolls a 6" and fails, sitting in the middle of the field with egg on his face waiting to eat all the bullets.

Please tell me something was shown that this isn't the case.

Characters cant hide in units they just cant be targeted if they are not the closet unit. So if your unit makes the charge and your Chaos Lord doesn't he can take the egg off his face and make some breakfast without having to worry about getting shot at.

If the unit he's close to runs 8" off to collect skulls and he missed his charge with a 6. How would he not get shot at?

> several concerns about not having a range of Summoning options without taking characters of each God

Folks, having a Mark restricts you from Summoning Daemons of other Gods, it's not a prerequisite to your God - an unaligned Character can summon anything.

Wonder if Dark Apostles will get a bonus to their attempts, they always seemed a more fluffy Summoner than magicians - especially for Khornate Daemons, who previously needed a whole new Codex to get a fluffy means of crossing the barrier between dimensions, and Word Bearers, who should be taking loads of them

SInce this is a "Chaos" and not just CSM thread, I just wanted to say: It seems like Ku'gath and the option for a palanquin for Nurgle heralds are gone.

 Goat wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I must be missing something here... since characters are no longer joining units, do they also have to make a separate charge roll? I see the intervention rule for defense but am I missing something that says a character charges along with the unit he's hiding with?

That will really rustle my jimmies if a unit makes the charge roll of 8" and the chaos lord rolls a 6" and fails, sitting in the middle of the field with egg on his face waiting to eat all the bullets.

Please tell me something was shown that this isn't the case.

Characters cant hide in units they just cant be targeted if they are not the closet unit. So if your unit makes the charge and your Chaos Lord doesn't he can take the egg off his face and make some breakfast without having to worry about getting shot at.

If the unit he's close to runs 8" off to collect skulls and he missed his charge with a 6. How would he not get shot at?

The unit that charged will be closer to most, if not all, enemy units and because they are closer they have to shoot at that unit instead, but they can't because CC so they just lose Shooting.

Hmm. Looks like one can also also Summon Oblits. Given the distance restrictions, that could be a highly effective way of locking down a flank.

Maybe these rules are published as part of the Chaos Daemons section and are intended only to apply to trueborn Daemons, and not to Mortals and machines which have been turned? But then, a DP appears in the CD list, and isn't trueborn... but it also doesn't have the Heretic Astartes Faction, which is odd. You'd think they'd have a single entry and span both Factions.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Goat wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I must be missing something here... since characters are no longer joining units, do they also have to make a separate charge roll? I see the intervention rule for defense but am I missing something that says a character charges along with the unit he's hiding with?

That will really rustle my jimmies if a unit makes the charge roll of 8" and the chaos lord rolls a 6" and fails, sitting in the middle of the field with egg on his face waiting to eat all the bullets.

Please tell me something was shown that this isn't the case.

Characters cant hide in units they just cant be targeted if they are not the closet unit. So if your unit makes the charge and your Chaos Lord doesn't he can take the egg off his face and make some breakfast without having to worry about getting shot at.

If the unit he's close to runs 8" off to collect skulls and he missed his charge with a 6. How would he not get shot at?

The unit that charged will be closer to most, if not all, enemy units and because they are closer they have to shoot at that unit instead, but they can't because CC so they just lose Shooting.

It would seem then what "can't do this" rule would supersede the other.

Can't shoot the lord because another unit is closer but is locked in CC.
Can't shoot the unit because locked in CC. So is the lord free to be shot since he is not in CC?

U're kiddin' right? No-scatter ds allows him to get where he needs to be. Fearless and re-rolls to-hit for BL guyz nearby, 7 wounds, halves the damage taken, Daemon weapons no longer force him to become ws1 and instead he can just strike with a claw. He's the man. If you want, roll him in a lr that won't insta explode now. And get this 2-d turn charge.

As is, you can now perform devastating termie combi-melta drops together with Abaddon. No stupid challenges! Drakes for the most reliable 1-st turn charge in the game to hurt heavier weapons and to force bauble wraps, marines or zerkers in rhinos...so many possibilities!

Man, csm are always unhappy.

Perhaps I over reacted, still I am skepticle about anything GW gives chaos that looks good, we'll have to see how it plays out veruses other factions buffed characters. (Something to remember, yes Abaddon looks buffed but do you think SM named characters won't be buffed up too? As one gets better so do the others)

BrianDavion wrote:yeah it's kinda amazing, GW dumps amazing awesome stuff on them, and then they sort of sit there, sulk, point at the space marines and scream "BUT I WANT THAT TOO!" CSMs look to be in a pretty good position in 8th, I bet they're gonna be top tier.

That's kind of ignorant of the last 10 years of 40k history and these kind of comments happen every time there is a chaos release. I've seen so many 'cool' chaos releases that everbody promises will be great and fluffy, etc. but turns out to be rubbish, then SM get a release which, in some cases, can change the entire meta. So CSM players point out how much better the loyalist releases are and some guy comes out screaming that chaos players are so spoiled. The fact is CSM has been pissed on by GW for 10 years and has only recently started showing CSM some love, so excuse me for being a bit skepticle about anything that GW has given us after such an abusive relationship.

(Rant over: maybe exaggerating a bit but the point is still valid)

 mrhappyface wrote:

U're kiddin' right? No-scatter ds allows him to get where he needs to be. Fearless and re-rolls to-hit for BL guyz nearby, 7 wounds, halves the damage taken, Daemon weapons no longer force him to become ws1 and instead he can just strike with a claw. He's the man. If you want, roll him in a lr that won't insta explode now. And get this 2-d turn charge.

As is, you can now perform devastating termie combi-melta drops together with Abaddon. No stupid challenges! Drakes for the most reliable 1-st turn charge in the game to hurt heavier weapons and to force bauble wraps, marines or zerkers in rhinos...so many possibilities!

Man, csm are always unhappy.

Perhaps I over reacted, still I am skepticle about anything GW gives chaos that looks good, we'll have to see how it plays out veruses other factions buffed characters. (Something to remember, yes Abaddon looks buffed but do you think SM named characters won't be buffed up too? As one gets better so do the others)

BrianDavion wrote:yeah it's kinda amazing, GW dumps amazing awesome stuff on them, and then they sort of sit there, sulk, point at the space marines and scream "BUT I WANT THAT TOO!" CSMs look to be in a pretty good position in 8th, I bet they're gonna be top tier.

That's kind of ignorant of the last 10 years of 40k history and these kind of comments happen every time there is a chaos release. I've seen so many 'cool' chaos releases that everbody promises will be great and fluffy, etc. but turns out to be rubbish, then SM get a release which, in some cases, can change the entire meta. So CSM players point out how much better the loyalist releases are and some guy comes out screaming that chaos players are so spoiled. The fact is CSM has been pissed on by GW for 10 years and has only recently started showing CSM some love, so excuse me for being a bit skepticle about anything that GW has given us after such an abusive relationship.

(Rant over: maybe exaggerating a bit but the point is still valid)

I play chaos too, so belive me I understand the pain, and there are some absolutely mind numblying stupid decisions GWs pulled on chaos. stuff like putting put rules for Horus Heresy era stuff, and not letting chaos take them (BTW, Chaos does NOT get Taratos or Cataphracti termies in the new rules. I checked when the complete book was up) but at the same time, I think GW has come around. at the very least their new CEO seems to have a clue, unlike Kirby who didn't seem to get that chaos fans wanted the traitor legions, not some lame red painted renegade chapter de jour. so hopefully things are looking up.

BrianDavion wrote:
I play chaos too, so belive me I understand the pain, and there are some absolutely mind numblying stupid decisions GWs pulled on chaos. stuff like putting put rules for Horus Heresy era stuff, and not letting chaos take them (BTW, Chaos does NOT get Taratos or Cataphracti termies in the new rules. I checked when the complete book was up) but at the same time, I think GW has come around. at the very least their new CEO seems to have a clue, unlike Kirby who didn't seem to get that chaos fans wanted the traitor legions, not some lame red painted renegade chapter de jour. so hopefully things are looking up.

One can only hope.

So, does anyone else think Magnus at 415 points is a good deal?

I'm not sure if his Primarch of the Thousand Sons special rule applies to himself, but if it does it's pretty sick. It'd mean he always hits on 2+ and re-rolls misses, and his save would be a 4+ invulnerable save re-rolling 1's. He can pretty easily put 21 wounds to a 500+ point Wraithknight in one fight phase, and considering he can can soften up stuff with Smite beforehand he's a tough sob. T7 18 wounds and all this utility and power can't be bad.

 Therion wrote:
So, does anyone else think Magnus at 415 points is a good deal?

I'm not sure if his Primarch of the Thousand Sons special rule applies to himself, but if it does it's pretty sick. It'd mean he always hits on 2+ and re-rolls misses, and his save would be a 4+ invulnerable save re-rolling 1's. He can pretty easily put 21 wounds to a 500+ point Wraithknight in one fight phase, and considering he can can soften up stuff with Smite beforehand he's a tough sob. T7 18 wounds and all this utility and power can't be bad.

Where's Magnus' datasheet for 8e? I missed that.

http://imgur.com/a/m4L2J

Don't worry. The guy who maintains the news and rumours thread missed it too, despite it being posted in the thread.

Magnus moves 16" per turn, twice, so 32".. Charges first turn every game. Theoretically he can do 15 mortal wounds in the psychic phase and 21 wounds in the fight phase, and he buffs nearby friendly units a lot. A lot of Chaos big hitters, even other than Daemons, have invulnerable saves that Magnus buffs. Heldrakes, Hellforged Leviathans, etc. And he's hard to kill because of his invulnerable saves and re-rolls and good point per wound efficiency. It's insane ^_^

 Therion wrote:
http://imgur.com/a/m4L2J

Don't worry. The guy who maintains the news and rumours thread missed it too, despite it being posted in the thread.

Magnus moves 16" per turn, twice, so 32".. Charges first turn every game. Theoretically he can do 15 mortal wounds in the psychic phase and 21 wounds in the fight phase, and he buffs nearby friendly units a lot. A lot of Chaos big hitters, even other than Daemons, have invulnerable saves that Magnus buffs. Heldrakes, Hellforged Leviathans, etc. And he's hard to kill because of his invulnerable saves and re-rolls and good point per wound efficiency. It's insane ^_^

Now that is nasty! 7x S16 AP-4 D3 attacks! That was what I was hoping for the first time Magnus was released!

Strange that he only has a 3+ armour save though not a 2+, wonder why they changed that?

Also I hadn't seen Be'lakor till now, he's a beast too! But again, what's up with the save? Traided his 4++ for a 4+ and re-roll saves, not sure how I feel about that.

 mrhappyface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I play chaos too, so belive me I understand the pain, and there are some absolutely mind numblying stupid decisions GWs pulled on chaos. stuff like putting put rules for Horus Heresy era stuff, and not letting chaos take them (BTW, Chaos does NOT get Taratos or Cataphracti termies in the new rules. I checked when the complete book was up) but at the same time, I think GW has come around. at the very least their new CEO seems to have a clue, unlike Kirby who didn't seem to get that chaos fans wanted the traitor legions, not some lame red painted renegade chapter de jour. so hopefully things are looking up.

One can only hope.

I think personally Traitor's Hate marked a bit of a change of tone, where we stopped getting "chaos is just a buncha random warlords" to referance to the orginzied black legion,and the crimson slaughter, a faction every chaos player seemed to hate, was nearly destroyed. relitively shortly after we got the return of Magus and traitor legions. now, we're getting death guard, and another deamon primarch. I'm not sure that things are perfect, but they're certainly improving.

IMHO if the cult legions take off big, we may see new codices for the other legions, there's eneugh Horus Heresy material by forge world, for example, to give most if not all of the traitor legions their own "Primarch, special character, cultist, troop, terminator" set up. and thats assuming they stick to that formula and don't say, put out a Iron Warriors release, with a special type of seige troop (Maybe ala Heresy era Breachers, with storm shields and boltguns?) a warsmith character, and, a new heavy support option that is well.. artillery

there is a TON of potential if they wanna do the "legions as micro factions" approuch that they seem to be doing.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Therion wrote:
http://imgur.com/a/m4L2J

Don't worry. The guy who maintains the news and rumours thread missed it too, despite it being posted in the thread.

Magnus moves 16" per turn, twice, so 32".. Charges first turn every game. Theoretically he can do 15 mortal wounds in the psychic phase and 21 wounds in the fight phase, and he buffs nearby friendly units a lot. A lot of Chaos big hitters, even other than Daemons, have invulnerable saves that Magnus buffs. Heldrakes, Hellforged Leviathans, etc. And he's hard to kill because of his invulnerable saves and re-rolls and good point per wound efficiency. It's insane ^_^

Now that is nasty! 7x S16 AP-4 D3 attacks! That was what I was hoping for the first time Magnus was released!

Strange that he only has a 3+ armour save though not a 2+, wonder why they changed that?

Also I hadn't seen Be'lakor till now, he's a beast too! But again, what's up with the save? Traided his 4++ for a 4+ and re-roll saves, not sure how I feel about that.

The armour doesn't really matter. Everything that has a chance of hurting him will have armour save modifiers, so his invulnerable will come into play (4+). Assuming he can re-rolls 1's on that he's really resilient for a measly 415 points, especially when you consider his mobility, his kill potential (mortal wounds are a big deal since they ignore invulnerable saves) in 2 phases, and the fact he's a force multiplier for all your units tagged as Legion or Thousand Sons.

I mean, he's only about 50 points more expensive than a stock Chaos Land Raider! To me, off the bat, he's an auto-include. He will blast through almost any unit in the game that I can currently think of. Multiwound elite units like Terminators are in a world of hurt with his spells and weapon. Monsters likewise, including Knights. A Knight will take a beating from his abilities and hits (Magnus will do 17 wounds in close combat by average) and the weapon skill degrades to 4+ or even 5+, and even with a Reaper Chainsword that does 6 wounds per hit, it's only 4 attacks of which half or less than half will hit and even less will wound, Magnus will still have his invulnerable and 18 wounds to fall back on. If the Smite and Infernal Gaze do some damage, Magnus will probably solo-kill a Knight (a unit much more expensive than him) in one turn. Possibly the first turn of the game too.

He's actually least efficient against Horde units, like masses of Gaunts or Orks.

I'm excited to see what Mortarion can do after seeing this. His rules will probably come really soon with the Death Guard codex released shortly after the 8th edition.

I was looking forward to having Marines armed with a Boltgun, Pistol and Chainsword. Even a Boltgun + Chainsword.

Looks like all CSM get Boltgun + Pistol but if they want a Chainsword you have to swap the Boltgun, even Chosen.

So we vot 4 mini legion rules. Hope separate books fixes them.

Death guard index list doesnt allow havocs, bikes, vindicators, oblits and weirdly no terminators. Those plague terminators must be a special unit for death guard. The death guard codex hopefully addresses these issues as missing out certain units there has to be something that helps