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Okay guys this is just my opinion,but Imperial Guard kind of strike me as the United States Army Rangers of the imperium wherein pdf are like the standard army, reasoning behind this logic is the comparitive sizes of those forces, iirc most Imperial guard units are like 60000 men, with support staff, so thats, Wherein PDF forces tend to number in the hundreds of thousands, am I the only one who thinks this or do you guys think the same?
Remember be polite and don't fall for troll bait

The Imperial Guard isn't really analogous to the Rangers. The Imperial Guard is usually (but not always) better trained and equipped than the more numerous random PDF forces, but they aren't special forces. The Rangers are not generally battle-line troops, they don't occupy trenches or the like (usually), but rather are specialists, they are used for specific battles to accomplish specific tasks, they don't slog through entire campaigns or crew tank/artillery and the like.

The Imperial Guard is much better related to feudal armies. the PDF is the forces of the lower nobility, expected to handle minor incursions and maintain general order, with the IG being the forces of the King to keep the lower nobles in line and respond to dire invasion. The PDF answers to the local planetary/sector Imperial Commander, whereas the Imperial Guard answers directly to galactic authorities. A more US centric version would be the PDF being the National Guard with the IG being the US Army, at least in terms of role and chain of command, even if not the same numbers ratio.

Vaktathi wrote:The Imperial Guard isn't really analogous to the Rangers. The Imperial Guard is usually (but not always) better trained and equipped than the more numerous random PDF forces, but they aren't special forces. The Rangers are not generally battle-line troops, they don't occupy trenches or the like (usually), but rather are specialists, they are used for specific battles to accomplish specific tasks, they don't slog through entire campaigns or crew tank/artillery and the like.

The Imperial Guard is much better related to feudal armies. the PDF is the forces of the lower nobility, expected to handle minor incursions and maintain general order, with the IG being the forces of the King to keep the lower nobles in line and respond to dire invasion.

it just seems odd that IG Units are as small as they are and expected to be line troopers, but then again I am trying to logic 40k which in and of itself is heresy

Storm Troopers might be a better comparison. I think.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Storm Troopers might be a better comparison. I think.

Well I was thinking storm troopers are like the Green Beret/Delta of the IoM

Guard regiments are more on the level of several thousand to the low tens of thousands, depending on the world in question. They're not quite analogous to modern Special Forces, because while they have a training and selection process as rigorous, they form an entire standing army, and so get used in a different capacity. It would be like if the US army was a hundred thousand SEALs or Rangers; they wouldn't get used as SEALs or Rangers currently are, but neither would they really be used as regular soldiers are either. Being a baseline for quality inherently shifts behavior; even when that baseline is exceptional in and of itself it ends up used differently than equal quality next to a lower baseline.

For instance, with equipment added into the equation modern soldiers aren't extremely different from nineteenth century sharpshooters in quality, but they're used in a different capacity than they were, while also being used in a different capacity than the contemporary baseline soldier would have been as well, while the general role they filled then is not thematically distinct from modern Spec Ops, though naturally quite different in terms of capacity and whatnot.

So, Guardsmen are used in a more advanced role than modern soldiers, and are closer to Spec Ops in training and ability, while a yet higher tier performs the role of Spec Ops, with a yet higher capacity.

Wardragoon wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Storm Troopers might be a better comparison. I think.

Well I was thinking storm troopers are like the Green Beret/Delta of the IoM

I thought these were all special forces. With Delta being slightly 'specialer'.

If Rangers were Storm Troopers I imagine Delta would be Inquisitorial Storm Troopers (who are supposed to be taken from the best of the stormtroopers).

Wardragoon wrote:
it just seems odd that IG Units are as small as they are and expected to be line troopers, but then again I am trying to logic 40k which in and of itself is heresy

I think it would be a mistake to refer to IG units as "small". IIRC one of the Eisenhorn books refers to a Gudrun regiment that is in the several hundred thousands. Size varies greatly between units.

Iirc rangers are a notch under special forces, Green Beret's are your standard special forces and Delta is even a tier higher.


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MountainSquid wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:
it just seems odd that IG Units are as small as they are and expected to be line troopers, but then again I am trying to logic 40k which in and of itself is heresy

I think it would be a mistake to refer to IG units as "small". IIRC one of the Eisenhorn books refers to a Gudrun regiment that is in the several hundred thousands. Size varies greatly between units.

so maybe some units are more elite than others

Wardragoon wrote:so maybe some units are more elite than others

Or maybe they came from a tribal planet with a miniscule population anyway. Numbers don't necessarily reflect quality.

I've always seen the IG as a military, and the PDF as a militia.

Wardragoon wrote:
so maybe some units are more elite than others

That's the way it always is (A Cadian regiment is going to be better trained and equipped then a regiment from the South Bumlick Agro-collective). If a planet has several billion people, it's going to give a bigger tithe than a planet of 10 million. I suspect the Tithe might be "Provide x number of troops" and planets that are not particularly martial may just hand over a Corps-size "Regiment", rather than breaking it down to what we 21st Century types consider "regiment size".

Thaanos wrote:I've always seen the IG as a military, and the PDF as a militia.

I'd imagine the PDF are closer to our modern military than most Imperial Guard contigents. The only difference being that most PDF's will be somewhat lax as they won't be engaging in wars if the planet is united, until they are attacked by outside forces. But you will get some PDF's every bit as hard and tough-as-nails as any IG regiment.

@OP you said 60,000 IG men IIRC there are millions of imperial gurdsmen.

imo

PDF are the natinal guard essentaly they look after the home front.

Whilst IG support astarties and conqour wolds and are deployed to stop invations when the PDF cannot handle it

@Emperors Faithful i don't agree with you. the PDF will only ever really fight in one or so theaters or on their home planet.

where as the IG will fight on many planets for the whole of their lives .

JamesMclaren123 wrote:@Emperors Faithful i don't agree with you. the PDF will only ever really fight in one or so theaters or on their home planet.

where as the IG will fight on many planets for the whole of their lives .

Depends, the PDF could be made of a war torn planet with many different facting vying for power, with real full-scale wars between these factions. They could experience common Xenos raids. So long as they met their tithe, the Imperium wouldn't care.
On the other hand the IG regiment could end up with a soft garrison duty somewhere.

The IG Codex mentions this. That some PDF forces deserve every bit of acclaim as the most worthy IG regiments, but are still looked down upon by the Guard.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:@Emperors Faithful i don't agree with you. the PDF will only ever really fight in one or so theaters or on their home planet.

where as the IG will fight on many planets for the whole of their lives .

Depends, the PDF could be made of a war torn planet with many different facting vying for power, with real full-scale wars between these factions. They could experience common Xenos raids. So long as they met their tithe, the Imperium wouldn't care.
On the other hand the IG regiment could end up with a soft garrison duty somewhere.

The IG Codex mentions this. That some PDF forces deserve every bit of acclaim as the most worthy IG regiments, but are still looked down upon by the Guard.

i agree with you but overall i think that the guard far outclass the pdf

I don't think that there is a big difference between PDF units and Guard units, at least not until the Guard units got some actual combat experience.
A planet will provide whatever it can as part of it's tithe, some planets might take this more serious than others and truly provide the best they have
while others merely round up some underhive scum, equip them with whatever can be expected as standard from this world + some basic training and call it a day.
Of course, there is most certainly a lower limit to what you can present to the Munitorum, at least as long as you wish to retain your govenourship so you cannot just
send some one leged cripples with rusty knives on a stick..., well, at least not for long

The Imperial Guard is the army, while the PDF are various state militias and national guard equivalents.


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KingDeath wrote:I don't think that there is a big difference between PDF units and Guard units, at least not until the Guard units got some actual combat experience.

Considering Guard takes the top X percent of all PDF units, and then trains them further... on average, Guard units are superior even before they get combat experience.

PDF's are standing armies, there's little "militia" about them, they have uniforms, tanks, artillery, aircraft, and so on. The key difference between them and the IG is that the PDF is under the control of the planetary governor, is less trained, has its best troops donated to the IG, and generally operates older equipment.

Which in the eyes of the Imperium still makes them a militia. Sometimes quite well funded and equipped militias, sure. Sometimes even better equipped than the Guard, sure. But still a militia, effectively. A militia being "Defense activity or service, to protect a community, its territory, property, and laws", amongst other definitions such as "an official reserve army, composed of citizen soldiers."

In comparison to the Guard, the PDF basically are citizen soldiers, whereas Guardsmen are regular campaigners. The National Guard of the United States comes to mind as a modern equivalent.

It differs...
Depending on the planet (And its location) the PDF could be a highly trained and well equipped force on par with the Imperial Guard.
They could equally be a ragtag bunch of battle hardened ex-gang members using old weapons and equipment.
They could also be green recruits that will fold in the first few minutes of a fight.

PDF is militia at best...
Imperial Guard is army...
Stormtroopers are the Rangers...

The role of the Imperial Guard is t conquer/defend the worlds of the Imperium. Role of Rangers in 2'nd world war was to destroy enemy strong points and allow main force to go unchallenged, or with very little resistance. They where also working with British commandos.

Brother Coa wrote:PDF is militia at best...
Imperial Guard is army...
Stormtroopers are the Rangers...

The role of the Imperial Guard is t conquer/defend the worlds of the Imperium. Role of Rangers in 2'nd world war was to destroy enemy strong points and allow main force to go unchallenged, or with very little resistance. They where also working with British commandos.

PDF can be just as good as guard or simply random plebs armed with antiquated lasguns.
Imperial Guard can vary from normal soldiers to the equivilant of our modern day elites.
Stormtroopers are a world apart...

No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

In general yes, but you still get the odd defense force that would have fairly equal euipment if not training... though their guns are often woefully lacking since the only things i have read have them using single shot lasguns rather than proper ones...

purplefood wrote:
PDF can be just as good as guard or simply random plebs armed with antiquated lasguns.
Imperial Guard can vary from normal soldiers to the equivilant of our modern day elites.
Stormtroopers are a world apart...

The only good PDF I know are Ultramar PDF, Cadia PDF, Terra PDF, Armageddon PDF.
Imperial Guard are varying from modern day elites to almost Space Marines. It is an army with 10.000 years of combat experienced, we have nothing to compare it to that.
Stormtroopers are the definition of solder...

Almost Space Marines? Try again...

purplefood wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

In general yes, but you still get the odd defense force that would have fairly equal euipment if not training... though their guns are often woefully lacking since the only things i have read have them using single shot lasguns rather than proper ones...

Yes, they exist, but they are the exception, RARE exceptions.

Melissia wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

In general yes, but you still get the odd defense force that would have fairly equal euipment if not training... though their guns are often woefully lacking since the only things i have read have them using single shot lasguns rather than proper ones...

Yes, they exist, but they are the exception, RARE exceptions.

Oh yeah definately rare and definately exceptions...

I think any generalizations with an organization as large and diverse as the Imperial Guard are bound to be futile.

For PDFs Take that futility with generalizations and multiply it about 1000 times.