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Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:Well, fortunately, Real Life fluff contradicts that assertion. We had body armor that'd stop AK rounds at least as far back as '93. It's the reason a lot of guys who were in Mogadishu at the time are still alive.

As Is aid, the hard parts of the armor can stop some rifle caliber rounds (armor piercing rounds can potentially get through, as can particularly high velocity rounds). The soft parts cannot.

This from the military's own testing.

The "soft parts" are why lasguns are physically capable of damaging terminators. Otherwise they would be literally (as opposed to practically) useless vs. terminators.

im2randomghgh wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:
I'm pretty sure that by 'heavy assault rifle', people meant that assault rifle bullets tend to be beyond what most body armor can take reliably.

Well, actually (sorry for revisiting) Dragonskin (despite falling apart in poor conditions) was level 3 protection in optimal conditions and could stop assault rifles (AK47, M16A2) and a grenade.

Once again, dragonskin sucks, that's why the military doesn't' use it. It could only reliably stop one or two bullets before breaking down. Fine for police, FBI, etc, but not for an army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:Well, fortunately, Real Life fluff contradicts that assertion. We had body armor that'd stop AK rounds at least as far back as '93. It's the reason a lot of guys who were in Mogadishu at the time are still alive.

As Is aid, the hard parts of the armor can stop some rifle caliber rounds (armor piercing rounds can potentially get through, as can particularly high velocity rounds). The soft parts cannot.

This from the military's own testing.

The "soft parts" are why lasguns are physically capable of damaging terminators. Otherwise they would be literally (as opposed to practically) useless vs. terminators.

And yet, flak greatcoats such as those used by the DKoK still provide the same general level of protection as the apparently harder flak armor used by Cadians.

Not all armors are the same. Flak armor doesn't necessarily operate on the exact same principles as modern body armor. Dragonskin as noted above is a good example. It's essentially a very primitive Mesh Armor, similar to that used by the Eldar, which reacts to impacts and etc very differently from "normal" modern body armor.

Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.

That's what Eldar do, if you've read how their mesh works

im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.

I always thought thats what Power Armor was
In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:See? Two can play at that.

Oh, because something written by GW is not canon (the Dark Heresy corebook was written by GW and then given to FFG to support), but something written by a random dude on the internet with no affiliation to GW is?

I was talking more about your refusal to acknowledge the IG codex...which is sort of written by GW.

You have a habit of picking and choosing your sources for your argument and ignoring any contradictory evidence.

You're not the only one who's noticed that. I'm particularly amused by the cognitive dissonance it takes to state, in this thread, that game stats don't matter in terms of fluff, and using game stats in another to prove a fluff point.

I'll try one more time: fluff contradicts itself all the time.

Seaward wrote:

I'll try one more time: fluff contradicts itself all the time.

+1

Wardragoon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.

I always thought thats what Power Armor was
In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?

No one can prove one way or another what IG troop quality is compared to modern-day armies, thus they decided to try and prove something that they thought they did have evidence for. The fact that they were wrong has yet to dissuade them.

When fluff contradicts other fluff, treat that which was written by Dan Abnett as canon due to his being awesome

im2randomghgh wrote:When fluff contradicts other fluff, treat that which was written by Dan Abnett as canon due to his being awesome

And above all if Matt Ward wrote it ignore it

Seaward wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.

I always thought thats what Power Armor was
In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?

No one can prove one way or another what IG troop quality is compared to modern-day armies, thus they decided to try and prove something that they thought they did have evidence for. The fact that they were wrong has yet to dissuade them.

...me or Melissia?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.

I always thought thats what Power Armor was
In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?

No one can prove one way or another what IG troop quality is compared to modern-day armies, thus they decided to try and prove something that they thought they did have evidence for. The fact that they were wrong has yet to dissuade them.

...me or Melissia?

I blame the current GW wipping boy

im2randomghgh wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.

I always thought thats what Power Armor was
In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?

No one can prove one way or another what IG troop quality is compared to modern-day armies, thus they decided to try and prove something that they thought they did have evidence for. The fact that they were wrong has yet to dissuade them.

...me or Melissia?

Everybody, myself included. Some are just more passionate than others.

Hell, I'm pretty sure I saw sometime trying to be intellectually elite in this thread about fictional toy soldiers in a fictional toy universe.

Seaward wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.

I always thought thats what Power Armor was
In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?

No one can prove one way or another what IG troop quality is compared to modern-day armies, thus they decided to try and prove something that they thought they did have evidence for. The fact that they were wrong has yet to dissuade them.

...me or Melissia?

Everybody, myself included. Some are just more passionate than others.

Hell, I'm pretty sure I saw sometime trying to be intellectually elite in this thread about fictional toy soldiers in a fictional toy universe.

Wait are you telling me the Emprah does not protect

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Tabletop rules are by no means a solid standing to base off assumptions on the background. Going by that plasma guns in BL books should explode and kill the user every half-a-dozen shots, which they don't.

There are some things which are abstractions, and some which aren't.

For example, one 'shot' in the tabletop game is an abstraction of shooting a lot in the 'real' world. One shot from a plamsma gun probably represents a burst of fire, or whatever. The 'Get's hot!' rule is an abstraction representing the instability of plasma guns.

However, AP is a different story. We know that the AP power of a plasma gun means it is reasonably powerful enough to get through even the toughest armor fairly reliably. The fact that the Guard gets to take armor saves against heavy stubbers implies that their is a significant chance for flak armor to stop a bullet from a heavy machine gun, which outclasses modern body armor.

Am I saying that flak armor will stop 1 in 3 heavy machine gun bullets? No. I'm saying that flak armor has the potential to stop heavy machine gun bullets, which is enough to say that flak armor has superior protective ability.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Tabletop rules are by no means a solid standing to base off assumptions on the background. Going by that plasma guns in BL books should explode and kill the user every half-a-dozen shots, which they don't.

There are some things which are abstractions, and some which aren't.

For example, one 'shot' in the tabletop game is an abstraction of shooting a lot in the 'real' world. One shot from a plamsma gun probably represents a burst of fire, or whatever. The 'Get's hot!' rule is an abstraction representing the instability of plasma guns.

However, AP is a different story. We know that the AP power of a plasma gun means it is reasonably powerful enough to get through even the toughest armor fairly reliably. The fact that the Guard gets to take armor saves against heavy stubbers implies that their is a significant chance for flak armor to stop a bullet from a heavy machine gun, which outclasses modern body armor.

Am I saying that flak armor will stop 1 in 3 heavy machine gun bullets? No. I'm saying that flak armor has the potential to stop heavy machine gun bullets, which is enough to say that flak armor has superior protective ability.

Ah, but as was pointed out earlier in this thread, that AP value doesn't really mean anything in terms of fluff. After all, the luminaries gracing us with their presence in the thread tell us that a lasgun's actually an AP 3 or 4 weapon, it's just that nobody uses it on the right power setting. So, by the same token, maybe those stubbers are just firing subsonic rounds, and flak jackets can't really protect against true stubber fire?

I'm not actually suggesting that, of course, it's just that the Guard lasrifle fanwanking earlier blew my mind.

With the lasgun debate, you need tor emember that there is a certain reliability inherrent in the armor penetration value. Can a lasgun pierce power armor? If you shoot a Marine in the helmet (which is weaker than the breast plate), at point blanks rage with a lasgun at full power? Sure it'll penetrate. But at more common battlefield ranges? At more standard power? Yes, it'd have a much lesser chance to penetrate.

Right.

Keep in mind, that at full power, at close range with little to diffuse it and a full power pack? A lasgun can probably penetrate almost all armors That's what hotshot laspacks are. Hell, even hellguns are basically just very powerful lasguns. So are multilasers. Lascannons are absurdly powerful lasguns.

But... that's what a sniper rifle in the Guard represents. The long las with its Rending.

Wardragoon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.

I always thought thats what Power Armor was
In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?

The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.


Did anyone take a peek at the poll? Only 8%(16) people think the IG are the rangers of the IoM.

nomotog wrote:The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.

No. You kit them out according to their role. Eldar are a good example of this (for the most part). Howling Banshees are supposed to be fast-moving "get in their face before they kill us" troops, and they get 5+ armor. Striking Scorpions are "move cautiously through the undergrowth" troops, and so they have heavier armor. Dark Reapers are "stand still and shoot up the other guy" troops, so they have heavy armor as well.

In a more 'real-world' example, a properly built assault team gives the guy performing door breaches heavier armor than the rest of the team. He's not going to need to move around all that much, so lighter armor wouldn't particularly help him. And his role makes him somewhat more vulnerable to bad guys (who like to point guns at doorways that they think the other side is going to be coming through), so he's more likely to need the extra protection.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Which is something I've corrected random on time and time again.

Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.

And no, they aren't. Again, I will reference the Lost.

Spoiler:

Criid only has to go through TWO WEEKS of training to join the guard.

I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.

And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.

And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])

"Primitive" in 40k terms, that's 40k wiki not 2k wiki
It has multiple layers of ceramic, our tanks are protected with that kind of tech today. And if I am not mistaken that "primitive" armor can save the Guardsman from bolter bullet ( and bolter is like today's RPG ) but not from Plasma gun ( 6000C duh... ). I nany case - more advanced that anything we have today.

And why compare Canada? When was the last time Canadian troops where at masse in some war? Canada suck in warfare, even we have greater combat experience than Canada. And you forget that 41'st millennial is 41'st millennial, they train their solders 3x faster than we. Just compare 12'th century solder training with 18'th century one and then the 21'st century one. Each time the training time is shorten because of the advancement of training methods. i wouldn't be surprised if they train 23'rd century solder in just 2 weeks.
As for service, in my country you must be 2 years in the military before you became a solder, in Russia to. Ordinary folks can be 6 months in basic training. Those who want's to become solders must first train for 2 years before they became one. And you must understand that in 41'st millennium great number of worlds are at war and they don't have 1 or 2 years to train their troops, they use any spare solder they can.

Canadian army? Won battle? That battle is draw, even if Canadians did push Germans a little. Canadians may have the best marksmanship on the world, but our military strategies are tough on West Point. And we are just small country with 8.000.000 people....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:Every regiment CAN, in theory, kick ass. So can every modern regiment. What's your point?

The point is that you are comparing IG with today's military. And we can do that because we lack proper training, tech and enemy.


Before we get along with Imperial Guard vs. moder army just one question: WHEN HAD WE FIGHT ALIEN RACE AND WON?

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Every regiment CAN, in theory, kick ass. So can every modern regiment. What's your point?

The point is that you are comparing IG with today's military. And we can do that because we lack proper training, tech and enemy.


Before we get along with Imperial Guard vs. moder army just one question: WHEN HAD WE FIGHT ALIEN RACE AND WON?

I think a more appropriate phrasing would be WHEN HAD WE FOUGHT AN ALIEN RACE AND WON?



And now's the perfect time to reference this.

Eumerin wrote:

nomotog wrote:The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.

No. You kit them out according to their role. Eldar are a good example of this (for the most part). Howling Banshees are supposed to be fast-moving "get in their face before they kill us" troops, and they get 5+ armor. Striking Scorpions are "move cautiously through the undergrowth" troops, and so they have heavier armor. Dark Reapers are "stand still and shoot up the other guy" troops, so they have heavy armor as well.

In a more 'real-world' example, a properly built assault team gives the guy performing door breaches heavier armor than the rest of the team. He's not going to need to move around all that much, so lighter armor wouldn't particularly help him. And his role makes him somewhat more vulnerable to bad guys (who like to point guns at doorways that they think the other side is going to be coming through), so he's more likely to need the extra protection.

A better real world example is giving snipers gihillie suits.

nomotog wrote:

The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.

No. Fire Warriors (on the table top, not in the fluff) are less skillful than Standard Guardsmen, and have armour analogous to that of Storm troopers with weapon better than bolters.

Your point=moot.

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.

No. Fire Warriors (on the table top, not in the fluff) are less skillful than Standard Guardsmen, and have armour analogous to that of Storm troopers with weapon better than bolters.

Your point=moot.

Yeah, it's different in fluff, where it's the opposite.

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.

No. Fire Warriors (on the table top, not in the fluff) are less skillful than Standard Guardsmen, and have armour analogous to that of Storm troopers with weapon better than bolters.

Your point=moot.

Yeah, it's different in fluff, where it's the opposite.

Even in fluff pulse weapons are more powerful than bolters. In fluff Tau FW armour<Carapace armour, but it's still pretty close.>

They serve different roles, I'm fairly sure we've talked about this in other threads. To equip line troops, definitely pulse rifles, easier to make, maintain, better range and accuracy and easier to use. To equip shock troops, definitely bolters. Better short range ability, higher rate of fire, more durable. It'd be difficult to compare Tau and Carapace as Tau armor is made a completely different material. Perhaps they are better against energy or projectile weapons? I dunno, need a source where the two are compared.

iproxtaco wrote:They serve different roles, I'm fairly sure we've talked about this in other threads. To equip line troops, definitely pulse rifles, easier to make, maintain, better range and accuracy and easier to use. To equip shock troops, definitely bolters. Better short range ability, higher rate of fire, more durable. It'd be difficult to compare Tau and Carapace as Tau armor is made a completely different material. Perhaps they are better against energy or projectile weapons? I dunno, need a source where the two are compared.

Well the pulse rifles also do more damage per shot, and fire at the rate of a lasgun...but kinda yes.

More powerful shots (fluff wise) would work better with units that are better marksmen i.e. marines. They are described as firing almost like hand-held artillery pieces. I think the marines would be better off with these. Also, fluff wise, they could probably pierce through (most) targets and hit those behind them. useful.

Also, there are some things I just can't see solid-slug weapons being useful on...like necrons? *Ping* is likely what you'd hear...

Either way, you'd be surprised how thoroughly unimportant this is considering we're debating a hypothetical universe...and not even parts that relate to the hobby!

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Which is something I've corrected random on time and time again.

Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.

And no, they aren't. Again, I will reference the Lost.

Spoiler:

Criid only has to go through TWO WEEKS of training to join the guard.

I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.

And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.

And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])

"Primitive" in 40k terms, that's 40k wiki not 2k wiki
It has multiple layers of ceramic, our tanks are protected with that kind of tech today. And if I am not mistaken that "primitive" armor can save the Guardsman from bolter bullet ( and bolter is like today's RPG ) but not from Plasma gun ( 6000C duh... ). I nany case - more advanced that anything we have today.

And why compare Canada? When was the last time Canadian troops where at masse in some war? Canada suck in warfare, even we have greater combat experience than Canada. And you forget that 41'st millennial is 41'st millennial, they train their solders 3x faster than we. Just compare 12'th century solder training with 18'th century one and then the 21'st century one. Each time the training time is shorten because of the advancement of training methods. i wouldn't be surprised if they train 23'rd century solder in just 2 weeks.
As for service, in my country you must be 2 years in the military before you became a solder, in Russia to. Ordinary folks can be 6 months in basic training. Those who want's to become solders must first train for 2 years before they became one. And you must understand that in 41'st millennium great number of worlds are at war and they don't have 1 or 2 years to train their troops, they use any spare solder they can.

Canadian army? Won battle? That battle is draw, even if Canadians did push Germans a little. Canadians may have the best marksmanship on the world, but our military strategies are tough on West Point. And we are just small country with 8.000.000 people....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:Every regiment CAN, in theory, kick ass. So can every modern regiment. What's your point?

The point is that you are comparing IG with today's military. And we can do that because we lack proper training, tech and enemy.


Before we get along with Imperial Guard vs. moder army just one question: WHEN HAD WE FIGHT ALIEN RACE AND WON?

Coa can you try a little harder to not insult an entire group of people everytime you post? Can't believe you didn't get a warning for calling Americans stupid and Jews cheap.

To me the easisest way to represent the Guard is this:

Imagine that all countries in Earth are planets in a given sector (considering population and military capabilites only, no ofensse intended) so that in this sector you have: military monsters able to contribute with lots of men (albeit training levels may vary) and also equipment (USA, China, Russia), planets that contribute medium sized armies that are either well trained/equipped but not many bodies (Canada, Germany, UK) or relatively many bodies of not the best trained men (former Iraq, Iran, India, Brasil) and finally plantes that in galactic terms are only able to contribute with men (most african countries, southern Asia, Central America, Caribean). Finally there are some in-betweens to thes rough clasifications. All these "planets' " military is adminsitered by the Departamento Monitorum.

When an invasion/insuergency occurs, DM takes a snap shot of all assets available in the sector to cope with the present situation; that is:

If it is a rebellion in a mountanious plantet full of bunkers, impossibly difficult mountain ranges, etc. but this insurgency is not stretegical or specially threatening, DM will primarily draft form "2nd. tier armies to provide the focalized quality when needed aided with man power" planets to provide the numbers and the casualties where quality is not vital. After all time is not an issue and the situation can ultimately be contained or bogged down to attrition while a better solution is conceived or deemed necessary.

If the sector is at the same time facing a small but dangerous Waaagh!! that is important to be eradicated asap, DM may draft from military monsters first to cope the situation quickly and decisively as they can provide enough cohesive man power and equipment by themselves avoiding unncessary multi-cultural issues like language and cross training that due to time will be a hindrance. When/if the invasion is eradicated some assets can now be relocalized to contuer the rebellion and crush it by might and numbers.

If now the sector is also facing a localized daemon incursion surely "man power" plantes would be required almost exclusively once more because it doesn't matter if regiments can communicate with other plantet's regiments or if equimpment is not standard or if there are cultural issues between plantes; carnage will be horrendous and when the incursion is beaten everyone who happens to survive will be sacrificed by the Inquisition anyway. Why waste your best more valuable assets in such attrition wars? Maybe such regiments can be redirected form the first rebellion mentinoned above (now that it almost ended with the arrival of the military mosnters) as these regiments prove to be somewhat problematical and crime rates rose and discipline began to suffer when reinforcements arrived to that war zone.

What I'm trying to point out is that Guard comprises each of these facets in a sector alone. Now imagine sub segmentums, segmentums and the whole galaxy. It is impossible (and impractical) to equip al regmients to the same level because many situations require different levels of training and equipment. Remember that man power is almost limitless and thus replaceable (even trained one) but equipment is scarcer and more costly to replace.

-Edit: typos