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im2randomghgh wrote:#1 it has sources.

Which means exactly nothing. Just because they put a little number next to a statement (And they didn't) and then put a citation on the bottom doesn't mean that they actually USED that source in particular.

Just as you have always been on this topic, you are wrong.

A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."

And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.

Melissia wrote:Indeed he did. The Stormtroopers were the ones who pulled off the sneakiest pranks, but the Sisters were the ones who were downright meanest in sports, seeming to think that intentionally sending an opponent in a game of 40k-rugby to the medicae and out of the game is a perfectly acceptable tactic.

Yes, he mentioned them in his own training as a Cadet, but I don't think he did in Cain's Last Stand, at the Schola Progenium where he was teaching the Cadets. I just wonder if a Schola Progenium necessarily entails all three sections (Commissar/Stormtrooper/Sororitas).

I think the guard are probably about as well-trained as modern-day first-class armies.

Why? I've never seen anything to suggest otherwise.

No one's going to win this argument, by the way, and not least of all because of some of the forumites involved in it.

im2randomghgh wrote:
They are all decent. Only the named ones are exceptional.

Yes, it does. "Flak Armour is a light and relatively primitive form of body armour used by the military forces of the Imperium of Man. It usually consists solely of a breastplate, shoulder pauldrons, knee plates, greaves and helmet and is most commonly used in Imperial Guard Regiments. It provides little protection against heavy weapons but resembles a modern day bulletproof vest in its protective ability"

They can't name every exceptional regiment. You should know that.

Yeah, still doesn't say that it is equal to modern armor in protection.

Primitive compared to what, power armor? TDA? It's primitive to their level of technology.

Resembles a modern day vest in it's protective ability? So, it protects them from weapons that would tear them in half, the same way that our armor protects us from weapons that would put a relatively small hole in us.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:#1 it has sources.

Which means exactly nothing. Just because they put a little number next to a statement (And they didn't) and then put a citation on the bottom doesn't mean that they actually USED that source in particular.

Just as you have always been on this topic, you are wrong.

Then look at the sources, find an online pdf containing them, and read it yourself. Sheesh, you automatically assume you are right simply because you have an opinion, even when I provide sources that themselves have canon sources that contradict you.

Are you doing this on purpose or just trolling?


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Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
They are all decent. Only the named ones are exceptional.

Yes, it does. "Flak Armour is a light and relatively primitive form of body armour used by the military forces of the Imperium of Man. It usually consists solely of a breastplate, shoulder pauldrons, knee plates, greaves and helmet and is most commonly used in Imperial Guard Regiments. It provides little protection against heavy weapons but resembles a modern day bulletproof vest in its protective ability"

They can't name every exceptional regiment. You should know that.

Yeah, still doesn't say that it is equal to modern armor in protection.

Primitive compared to what, power armor? TDA? It's primitive to their level of technology.

Resembles a modern day vest in it's protective ability? So, it protects them from weapons that would tear them in half, the same way that our armor protects us from weapons that would put a relatively small hole in us.

Yes, it DOES say it is equal in protection, hence the bold.


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Seaward wrote:I think the guard are probably about as well-trained as modern-day first-class armies.

Why? I've never seen anything to suggest otherwise.

No one's going to win this argument, by the way, and not least of all because of some of the forumites involved in it.

Exactly. AS WELL TRAINED, not better.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Yes, it DOES say it is equal in protection, hence the bold.

No, it doesn't. It says it resembles modern day armor. Not that it is equal to modern day armor.

They mean two completely different things.

im2randomghgh wrote:Are you doing this on purpose

Yes, Im doing this on purpose, as I have no respect for you as an intellectual.

To repeat myself:

Melissia wrote:A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."

And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.

That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.

And then they're also effective against energy weapons, which the IOTV is not proven against.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:#1 it has sources.

Which means exactly nothing. Just because they put a little number next to a statement (And they didn't) and then put a citation on the bottom doesn't mean that they actually USED that source in particular.

Just as you have always been on this topic, you are wrong.

A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."

And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.

That doesn't refute the point he's making at all really. It isn't dissimilar to modern body armour, if slightly more effective.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Are you doing this on purpose

Yes, Im doing this on purpose, as I have no respect for you as an intellectual.

To repeat myself:

Melissia wrote:A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."

And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.

That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.

And then they're also effective against energy weapons, which the IOTV is not proven against.

Look to where I added bold. Effective. Effective. NOT PROOF AGAINST. NOT IN ANY WAY IS IT PROOF AGAINST THESE THINGS.

P.S. did you happen to see my SoB thread before it was locked?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:#1 it has sources.

Which means exactly nothing. Just because they put a little number next to a statement (And they didn't) and then put a citation on the bottom doesn't mean that they actually USED that source in particular.

Just as you have always been on this topic, you are wrong.

A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."

And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.

That doesn't refute the point he's making at all really. It isn't dissimilar to modern body armour, if slightly more effective.

The point he's making is that they're equal. They're similar in that they fill the same role (protection) but the effectiveness of flak armor is completely beyond what we have.

Melissia wrote:That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.

Now where are you getting this from?

im2randomghgh wrote:Look to where I added bold. Effective. Effective. NOT PROOF AGAINST. NOT IN ANY WAY IS IT PROOF AGAINST THESE THINGS.

No armor is "proof" against anything. Lasguns can get through Terminator armor.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.

Now where are you getting this from?

Dark Heresy and BL novels from the Guard's point of view.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:That doesn't refute the point he's making at all really. It isn't dissimilar to modern body armour, if slightly more effective.

So you disagree with him.

He said they are equal, not similar.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Are you doing this on purpose

Yes, Im doing this on purpose, as I have no respect for you as an intellectual.

To repeat myself:

Melissia wrote:A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."

And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.

That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.

And then they're also effective against energy weapons, which the IOTV is not proven against.

I'd like to see the source for the assertion that autogun rounds have no effect on the body. I suspect I'll be ignored, as half-truths seem to be the order of the day 'round these parts.

If the proof is the weight, that's slim proof. That's not that much different from a lot of the modern armors that make use of composite/ceramic plating - which are, incidentally, pretty damn good at stopping modern "heavy assault rifle" (whatever those are) rounds.

Okay boys and girls lets keep this polite, dont be insulting each other, we don't want to piss off the mods lol

Nerivant wrote:
The point he's making is that they're equal. They're similar in that they fill the same role (protection) but the effectiveness of flak armor is completely beyond what we have.

im2randomghgh wrote:Yes, it does. "Flak Armour is a light and relatively primitive form of body armour used by the military forces of the Imperium of Man. It usually consists solely of a breastplate, shoulder pauldrons, knee plates, greaves and helmet and is most commonly used in Imperial Guard Regiments. It provides little protection against heavy weapons but resembles a modern day bulletproof vest in its protective ability"

Looks like he's arguing that they're similar. Which they are, really, if superior.

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Are you doing this on purpose

Yes, Im doing this on purpose, as I have no respect for you as an intellectual.

To repeat myself:

Melissia wrote:A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."

And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.

That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.

And then they're also effective against energy weapons, which the IOTV is not proven against.

I'd like to see the source for the assertion that autogun rounds have no effect on the body. I suspect I'll be ignored, as half-truths seem to be the order of the day 'round these parts.

If the proof is the weight, that's slim proof. That's not that much different from a lot of the modern armors that make use of composite/ceramic plating - which are, incidentally, pretty damn good at stopping modern "heavy assault rifle" (whatever those are) rounds.

7.62x39 is the round in an ak47, and remember fluff always contradicts itself.

Melissia wrote:

Now where are you getting this from?

Dark Heresy and BL novels from the Guard's point of view.

Dark Heresy and BL novels are written by incompetant fools with absolutely no understanding of the 40k universe!

See? Two can play at that. Now can you point out which BL novels describe autoguns as being far heavier and more powerful than modern small arms weaponry?

Wardragoon wrote:
7.62x39 is the round in an ak47, and remember fluff always contradicts itself.

Yeah, I'm familiar with what an AK-47 shoots. Not familiar with what a "heavy assault rifle" is. 7.62mm's a battle rifle round.

And yes, fluff does indeed always contradict itself. At least it gives people something to pound out their rage over, neh?

Seaward wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:
7.62x39 is the round in an ak47, and remember fluff always contradicts itself.

Yeah, I'm familiar with what an AK-47 shoots. Not familiar with what a "heavy assault rifle" is. 7.62mm's a battle rifle round.

And yes, fluff does indeed always contradict itself. At least it gives people something to pound out their rage over, neh?

haha true that, but I think heavy assault rifle round is the same as battle rifle, but I am not certain


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Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Now where are you getting this from?

Dark Heresy and BL novels from the Guard's point of view.

Dark Heresy and BL novels are written by incompetant fools with absolutely no understanding of the 40k universe!

See? Two can play at that. Now can you point out which BL novels describe autoguns as being far heavier and more powerful than modern small arms weaponry?

Okay guys if you cant play nicely please dont respond, we don't need this to turn into a yelling match

Look, the game rules themselves give an ample example of how effective flak armor is compared to modern armor.

A heavy stubber is described as being relatively similar to a modern heavy machine gun like the Browning M2. Heavy stubber rounds can be stopped by flak armor. I'd like for someone to tell me if modern body armor can do the same thing. The answer is no, it can not.

Therfore, flak armor is tougher than current body armor.


Edit:
I'm pretty sure that by 'heavy assault rifle', people meant that assault rifle bullets tend to be beyond what most body armor can take reliably.

And Wardragoon, stop playing a mod. You can ask for people to calm down, but don't start acting like the Modquisition.

Seaward wrote:I'd like to see the source for the assertion that autogun rounds have no effect on the body.

I already answered that, in the post above yours. But that aside, flak armor is made up of highly impact absorbent material, that's part of what it does. The way it is set up in many sets of armor likely also spreads the impact over a wider area, but that's more of a nature of a specific type of flak armor (there's many kinds I should note, some regiments preferring lighter flak armor for mobility, such as the Tanith).

And modern body armor isn't actually all that good against many kinds of weapons. It's more designed to protect from shrapnel and etc, which is the main cause of injury in war. The IOTV is better than older armor in that it can protect against 9mm handguns and its hard points (not the softer armor, unlike flak armor) can protect against some rifle rounds.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:See? Two can play at that.

Oh, because something written by GW is not canon (the Dark Heresy corebook was written by GW and then given to FFG to support), but something written by a random dude on the internet with no affiliation to GW is?

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Look to where I added bold. Effective. Effective. NOT PROOF AGAINST. NOT IN ANY WAY IS IT PROOF AGAINST THESE THINGS.

No armor is "proof" against anything. Lasguns can get through Terminator armor.

Yes actually. In Flight of the Eisenstein (or one of the others, my memory is a bit blurred in terms of title-to-event relations) a human fired shots from her pistol at an astartes despite knowing that "the armour was completely immune against it" to distract him. And lasguns CAN damage targets in terminator armour, but they can't penetrate. You can hit a terminator in the joint, or in the rebreather grille, but that is different from "getting through". Getting through would be if it went clean through the breast plate.

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:I'd like to see the source for the assertion that autogun rounds have no effect on the body.

I already answered that, in the post above yours. But that aside, flak armor is made up of highly impact absorbent material, that's part of what it does. The way it is set up in many sets of armor likely also spreads the impact over a wider area, but that's more of a nature of a specific type of flak armor (there's many kinds I should note, some regiments preferring lighter flak armor for mobility, such as the Tanith).

Dark Heresy again, eh? Figures.

And modern body armor isn't actually all that good against many kinds of weapons. It's more designed to protect from shrapnel and etc, which is the main cause of injury in war. The IOTV is better than older armor in that it can protect against 9mm handguns and its hard points (not the softer armor, unlike flak armor) can protect against some rifle rounds.

Well, fortunately, Real Life fluff contradicts that assertion. We had body armor that'd stop AK rounds at least as far back as '93. It's the reason a lot of guys who were in Mogadishu at the time are still alive.

ChrisWWII wrote:Look, the game rules themselves give an ample example of how effective flak armor is compared to modern armor.

A heavy stubber is described as being relatively similar to a modern heavy machine gun like the Browning M2. Heavy stubber rounds can be stopped by flak armor. I'd like for someone to tell me if modern body armor can do the same thing. The answer is no, it can not.

Therfore, flak armor is tougher than current body armor.

Tabletop rules are by no means a solid standing to base off assumptions on the background. Going by that plasma guns in BL books should explode and kill the user every half-a-dozen shots, which they don't.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Look to where I added bold. Effective. Effective. NOT PROOF AGAINST. NOT IN ANY WAY IS IT PROOF AGAINST THESE THINGS.

No armor is "proof" against anything. Lasguns can get through Terminator armor.

Yes actually. In Flight of the Eisenstein (or one of the others, my memory is a bit blurred in terms of title-to-event relations) a human fired shots from her pistol at an astartes despite knowing that "the armour was completely immune against it" to distract him. And lasguns CAN damage targets in terminator armour, but they can't penetrate. You can hit a terminator in the joint, or in the rebreather grille, but that is different from "getting through". Getting through would be if it went clean through the breast plate.

Remember depending on fluff termies can be stepped on by titans and live.

im2randomghgh wrote:In Flight of the Eisenstein (or one of the others, my memory is a bit blurred in terms of title-to-event relations) a human fired shots from her pistol at an astartes despite knowing that "the armour was completely immune against it" to distract him.

That was because she was mistaken in believing that.

Marines are perceived as unbeatable gods of battle that cause people to soil their pants. And yet, they're still beaten.

ChrisWWII wrote:Look, the game rules themselves give an ample example of how effective flak armor is compared to modern armor.

A heavy stubber is described as being relatively similar to a modern heavy machine gun like the Browning M2. Heavy stubber rounds can be stopped by flak armor. I'd like for someone to tell me if modern body armor can do the same thing. The answer is no, it can not.

Therfore, flak armor is tougher than current body armor.


Edit:
I'm pretty sure that by 'heavy assault rifle', people meant that assault rifle bullets tend to be beyond what most body armor can take reliably.

And Wardragoon, stop playing a mod. You can ask for people to calm down, but don't start acting like the Modquisition.

Sorry this thread keeps on heating up, and its an interesting topic and I don't want the real mod's to close the thread

Seaward wrote:Well, fortunately, Real Life fluff contradicts that assertion. We had body armor that'd stop AK rounds at least as far back as '93. It's the reason a lot of guys who were in Mogadishu at the time are still alive.

As Is aid, the hard parts of the armor can stop some rifle caliber rounds (armor piercing rounds can potentially get through, as can particularly high velocity rounds). The soft parts cannot.

This from the military's own testing.

ChrisWWII wrote:
I'm pretty sure that by 'heavy assault rifle', people meant that assault rifle bullets tend to be beyond what most body armor can take reliably.

Well, actually (sorry for revisiting) Dragonskin (despite falling apart in poor conditions) was level 3 protection in optimal conditions and could stop assault rifles (AK47, M16A2) and a grenade. Regular armour for troops is level 4. They can stop most assault rifles.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:See? Two can play at that.

Oh, because something written by GW is not canon (the Dark Heresy corebook was written by GW and then given to FFG to support), but something written by a random dude on the internet with no affiliation to GW is?

I was talking more about your refusal to acknowledge the IG codex...which is sort of written by GW.

You have a habit of picking and choosing your sources for your argument and ignoring any contradictory evidence.