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They went into combat before the black crusade reached Perlia, clearing out a Space Hulk full of Tyranids (at the time, they thought it was because of Orks due to the ever-lingering danger of Ork raiders, but I digress), pulling back only when they realized the force was too strong for the deployed PDF unit to manage by itself.

The Whiteshield is also generally kept out of the worst of combat as well, even if they do have combat experience.

Melissia wrote:I haven't read it. Sounds like bad fan-fiction, and google as well as Black Library's site both have no mention of the novel.

The Ciaphas Cain story isn't just propaganda. In fact, it's (in canon) limited only to Inquisitors and the like, as it contains secrets which are best left unknown to the common populace. Not propaganda, which is intended for the common populace.

That's because I may or may not have mistyped the name.
It's "Redemption Corps".

Ah, now that name I recognize.

I recall it was rather badly reviewed...

Melissia wrote:They went into combat before the black crusade reached Perlia, clearing out a Space Hulk full of Tyranids (at the time, they thought it was because of Orks due to the ever-lingering danger of Ork raiders, but I digress), pulling back only when they realized the force was too strong for the deployed PDF unit to manage by itself.

The Whiteshield is also generally kept out of the worst of combat as well, even if they do have combat experience.

Those were a) Commissars-in-training overseeing PDF forces, not Stormtroopers, and b) not on a Space Hulk, but a minor listening post or mining station, I forget which, which had been hit by some Mycetic spores drifting in space after the Tyranids fleet had been destroyed. Those were extraordinary, expected-to-be-low-intensity conditions. They can be taken as neither representative of standard training, nor as comparable to what whiteshields, who are for all intents and purposes as trained or better than full fledged regiments from most other worlds, are thrown into.

Melissia wrote:Ah, now that name I recognize.

I recall it was rather badly reviewed...

It was decently written, but the plot was hamfisted.

And the Valkyrie 'Spectre' was a joke.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Those were a) Commissars-in-training overseeing PDF forces, not Stormtroopers

... both are trained at the Schola Progenium.

Also, a space hulk is any derelict spacecraft or object which is unknown and not moving on its own power.

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Those were a) Commissars-in-training overseeing PDF forces, not Stormtroopers

... both are trained at the Schola Progenium.

Commissars are trained to be leaders.

Also, a space hulk is any derelict spacecraft or object which is unknown and not moving on its own power.

No, it's not. A Space Hulk is a very specific phenomenon, not any unpowered object in space.

What a fun thread. I especially enjoyed the three pages on whether or not a lasgun is armor piercing. I think some of you may just have to learn to accept that 40K fluff is often contradictory.

As far as analogies go? No, Imperial Guard are not analogous to Rangers. The IG isn't specialized light infantry. The IG is analogous to the Army as a whole. There might be units of Guard analogous to Rangers, but the Guard as a whole isn't.

As role analogues go, that's the way it breaks down. Things get a little more hazy if you want to try and come up with analogies for 'elite' status. The Guard aren't the elite of the Imperium. Are guard cannon fodder? Some regiments are, some aren't. Some get treated that way, some don't. They make some heroic last stands, they win some improbable battles, they get wiped out to a man through incompetence and cowardice. It runs the gamut, and you'll find examples of them in the fluff.

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Those were a) Commissars-in-training overseeing PDF forces, not Stormtroopers

... both are trained at the Schola Progenium.

Which is strange becuase I can't recall Cain making mention of Stormtrooper recruits, even though Commissar Cadets and Novice Sisters were present.

@Sir P: The quality of Whiteshields no doubts varies enormously, as do the Guardsmen themselves. Though I don't think they are trained to a greater standard than most other 'typical' IG regiments.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Those were a) Commissars-in-training overseeing PDF forces, not Stormtroopers

... both are trained at the Schola Progenium.

Which is strange becuase I can't recall Cain making mention of Stormtrooper recruits, even though Commissar Cadets and Novice Sisters were present.

@Sir P: The quality of Whiteshields no doubts varies enormously, as do the Guardsmen themselves. Though I don't think they are trained to a greater standard than most other 'typical' IG regiments.

Uhh I seem to recall in the second book he reminisces about the pranks the two groups pulled on each other at the Schola Progenium

Indeed he did. The Stormtroopers were the ones who pulled off the sneakiest pranks, but the Sisters were the ones who were downright meanest in sports, seeming to think that intentionally sending an opponent in a game of 40k-rugby to the medicae and out of the game is a perfectly acceptable tactic.

Melissia wrote:Indeed he did. The Stormtroopers were the ones who pulled off the sneakiest pranks, but the Sisters were the ones who were downright meanest in sports, seeming to think that intentionally sending an opponent in a game of 40k-rugby to the medicae and out of the game is a perfectly acceptable tactic.

Not only acceptable, it was their preferred method of winning.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
PDF can be just as good as guard or simply random plebs armed with antiquated lasguns.
Imperial Guard can vary from normal soldiers to the equivilant of our modern day elites.
Stormtroopers are a world apart...

The only good PDF I know are Ultramar PDF, Cadia PDF, Terra PDF, Armageddon PDF.
Imperial Guard are varying from modern day elites to almost Space Marines. It is an army with 10.000 years of combat experienced, we have nothing to compare it to that.
Stormtroopers are the definition of solder...

Yes, but it's not as if every single soldier has personally had 10,000 years experience, plus based on the HH books, methinks the Imperial Army was better than the Imperial Guard. And standard Imperial Guard do not have anything like the discipline or training that modern elites have.

If you recall, in the Gaunt's Ghosts ~Omnibus (the Lost) one trooper [forget his nickname] tried to fix a bayonet to a rocket launcher cause he thought it'd be funny.

They are well trained, but are not trained to a higher standard than modern troops (in most developped countries i.e. US, Canada, Britain etc.). There are limits to what the human body can achieve, after all.

Also, it would be pointless to compare Rangers (or any other special forces i.e. SAS, JTF2 etc) to stormtroopers, considering they fulfill different roles. Stormtroopers are elite combat troops (mostly) whereas Rangers are special operations, and rarely take place in large scale assaults.

And since this seems to be steering in the direction of a previous thread (Modern Army vs. IG) I will resurrect the main point: flak armour. It is NOT very different from normal modern armour http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Flak_armour

im2randomghgh wrote:

They are well trained, but are not trained to a higher standard than modern troops (in most developped countries i.e. US, Canada, Britain etc.). There are limits to what the human body can achieve, after all.

And since this seems to be steering in the direction of a previous thread (Modern Army vs. IG) I will resurrect the main point: flak armour. It is NOT very different from normal modern armour http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Flak_armour

Yes, they are.

And no, flak armor is more protective, lighter, offers more mobility, and more coverage, than modern armor.

Which is something I've corrected random on time and time again.

If you want a regiment that is (in terms of skill) analogous to spec. forces, then either pick

a, 1st and Only

b, Terraxians

c, Cadians

d, Catachans

c again, Armageddon Steel Legions

Other than that though...

1st and Only weren't the only recon regiment in the Guard.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
PDF can be just as good as guard or simply random plebs armed with antiquated lasguns.
Imperial Guard can vary from normal soldiers to the equivilant of our modern day elites.
Stormtroopers are a world apart...

The only good PDF I know are Ultramar PDF, Cadia PDF, Terra PDF, Armageddon PDF.
Imperial Guard are varying from modern day elites to almost Space Marines. It is an army with 10.000 years of combat experienced, we have nothing to compare it to that.
Stormtroopers are the definition of solder...

Yes, but it's not as if every single soldier has personally had 10,000 years experience, plus based on the HH books, methinks the Imperial Army was better than the Imperial Guard. And standard Imperial Guard do not have anything like the discipline or training that modern elites have.

If you recall, in the Gaunt's Ghosts ~Omnibus (the Lost) one trooper [forget his nickname] tried to fix a bayonet to a rocket launcher cause he thought it'd be funny.

They are well trained, but are not trained to a higher standard than modern troops (in most developped countries i.e. US, Canada, Britain etc.). There are limits to what the human body can achieve, after all.

Also, it would be pointless to compare Rangers (or any other special forces i.e. SAS, JTF2 etc) to stormtroopers, considering they fulfill different roles. Stormtroopers are elite combat troops (mostly) whereas Rangers are special operations, and rarely take place in large scale assaults.

And since this seems to be steering in the direction of a previous thread (Modern Army vs. IG) I will resurrect the main point: flak armour. It is NOT very different from normal modern armour http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Flak_armour

http://skippyslist.com/list/ read this, you will read some soldiers do crazy fun and stupid stuff out of boredom, so th bayonet on a rocket launcher is not surprising, and by rangers I was meaning more of those involved in ww2 and vietnam

im2randomghgh wrote:If you want a regiment that is (in terms of skill) analogous to spec. forces, then either pick

a, 1st and Only

b, Terraxians

c, Cadians

d, Catachans

c again, Armageddon Steel Legions

Other than that though...

Or the millions of other regiments we don't have the specifics for.

Just because they're not named doesn't mean they're worse than other Imperial Guard regiments.

There's a saying first uttered by a US General when question as to why his men's rifles were in such poor condition.

He Said: "if you place a Soilder, an Anvil and a steel wedge into a room and come back an hour later, the anvil will be broken. The reason being: Soilder just have to feth with gak."

Melissia wrote:Which is something I've corrected random on time and time again.

Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.

And no, they aren't. Again, I will reference the Lost.

I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.

And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.

And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:If you want a regiment that is (in terms of skill) analogous to spec. forces, then either pick

a, 1st and Only

b, Terraxians

c, Cadians

d, Catachans

c again, Armageddon Steel Legions

Other than that though...

Or the millions of other regiments we don't have the specifics for.

Just because they're not named doesn't mean they're worse than other Imperial Guard regiments.

No, these are named because they are the best in the Imperium.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Spoiler:

Criid only has to go through TWO WEEKS of training to join the guard.

I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.

And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.

And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])

Well Iirc US army basic training is 9 weeks, but thats before all the other training classes

Err, she only had to go through two weeks because she was already a veteran of a very long war that lasted many, many weeks.

Training an Irregular up to Regular status is different from training a full on civilian to Regular status.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Which is something I've corrected random on time and time again.

Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.

And no, they aren't. Again, I will reference the Lost.

Spoiler:

Criid only has to go through TWO WEEKS of training to join the guard.

I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.

And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.

And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:If you want a regiment that is (in terms of skill) analogous to spec. forces, then either pick

a, 1st and Only

b, Terraxians

c, Cadians

d, Catachans

c again, Armageddon Steel Legions

Other than that though...

Or the millions of other regiments we don't have the specifics for.

Just because they're not named doesn't mean they're worse than other Imperial Guard regiments.

No, these are named because they are the best in the Imperium.

Did you click the link, because it never says that.

Second, what is "The Lost?" If you're going to refer to something, at least use it's proper name.

Third, two weeks of training to join the IG? What about in transit?

Fourth, oh, really? They're all the best? They're all exactly equal to each other in skill, equipment, and manpower? They're examples of the best. They're not the only regiments that can kick ass and take names.

Melissia wrote:Err, she only had to go through two weeks because she was already a veteran of a very long war that lasted many, many weeks.

Training an Irregular up to Regular status is different from training a full on civilian to Regular status.

No, it was Holy, I forget his name, her "son"

Melissia wrote:Err, she only had to go through two weeks because she was already a veteran of a very long war that lasted many, many weeks.

Training an Irregular up to Regular status is different from training a full on civilian to Regular status.

Now I havent read the novel however I am guessing they were pressed for manpower as well so they trained them as much as time permitted

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Err, she only had to go through two weeks because she was already a veteran of a very long war that lasted many, many weeks.

Training an Irregular up to Regular status is different from training a full on civilian to Regular status.

No, it was Holy, I forget his name, her "son"

Who wasn't ever really a civilian to begin with, as he was raised in the Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.

No, I don't intend to read your craptacular little source with its author making gak up.

I have better sources, you know, ones written by Games Workshop authors, not random gakhead on the internet number whateverthehell.

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Which is something I've corrected random on time and time again.

Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.

And no, they aren't. Again, I will reference the Lost.

Spoiler:

Criid only has to go through TWO WEEKS of training to join the guard.

I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.

And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.

And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:If you want a regiment that is (in terms of skill) analogous to spec. forces, then either pick

a, 1st and Only

b, Terraxians

c, Cadians

d, Catachans

c again, Armageddon Steel Legions

Other than that though...

Or the millions of other regiments we don't have the specifics for.

Just because they're not named doesn't mean they're worse than other Imperial Guard regiments.

No, these are named because they are the best in the Imperium.

Did you click the link, because it never says that.

Second, what is "The Lost?" If you're going to refer to something, at least use it's proper name.

Third, two weeks of training to join the IG? What about in transit?

Fourth, oh, really? They're all the best? They're all exactly equal to each other in skill, equipment, and manpower? They're examples of the best. They're not the only regiments that can kick ass and take names.

1. Yes, it does.

2. The Lost is the name of the single best BL Omnibus that has been written to date (Dan Abnett, that says it all)

3. Training in transit is the same as how modern military trains between engagements. What, did you think they admitted you to the army then you never have to train ever again?

4. Every regiment CAN, in theory, kick ass. So can every modern regiment. What's your point? In The Lost, the Dev Hetra regiment didn't want to fire their weapons because they thought it would contradict some planetary tradition or some such. And the Hauberkans were fleeing and running over friendlies in their rush to escape.

The Departmento Munitorum isn't picky. In the slightest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Err, she only had to go through two weeks because she was already a veteran of a very long war that lasted many, many weeks.

Training an Irregular up to Regular status is different from training a full on civilian to Regular status.

No, it was Holy, I forget his name, her "son"

Who wasn't ever really a civilian to begin with, as he was raised in the Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.

No, I don't intend to read your craptacular little source with its author making gak up.

I have better sources, you know, ones written by Games Workshop authors, not random gakhead on the internet number whateverthehell.

#1 it has sources.

#2 If your father is in the military, you are still a civilian. It is a fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wardragoon wrote:

Melissia wrote:Err, she only had to go through two weeks because she was already a veteran of a very long war that lasted many, many weeks.

Training an Irregular up to Regular status is different from training a full on civilian to Regular status.

Now I havent read the novel however I am guessing they were pressed for manpower as well so they trained them as much as time permitted

Exactly.

Quantity, not quality in the guard.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. Yes, it does.

2. The Lost is the name of the single best BL Omnibus that has been written to date (Dan Abnett, that says it all)

3. Training in transit is the same as how modern military trains between engagements. What, did you think they admitted you to the army then you never have to train ever again?

4. Every regiment CAN, in theory, kick ass. So can every modern regiment. What's your point? In The Lost, the Dev Hetra regiment didn't want to fire their weapons because they thought it would contradict some planetary tradition or some such. And the Hauberkans were fleeing and running over friendlies in their rush to escape.

The Departmento Munitorum isn't picky. In the slightest.

1. Uh, no, it doesn't. Seriously, this is ridiculous.

3. You didn't answer, or understand, my question.

4. So you stick by "only the named regiments are any good."

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. Yes, it does.

2. The Lost is the name of the single best BL Omnibus that has been written to date (Dan Abnett, that says it all)

3. Training in transit is the same as how modern military trains between engagements. What, did you think they admitted you to the army then you never have to train ever again?

4. Every regiment CAN, in theory, kick ass. So can every modern regiment. What's your point? In The Lost, the Dev Hetra regiment didn't want to fire their weapons because they thought it would contradict some planetary tradition or some such. And the Hauberkans were fleeing and running over friendlies in their rush to escape.

The Departmento Munitorum isn't picky. In the slightest.

1. Uh, no, it doesn't. Seriously, this is ridiculous.

3. You didn't answer, or understand, my question.

4. So you stick by "only the named regiments are any good."

They are all decent. Only the named ones are exceptional.

Yes, it does. "Flak Armour is a light and relatively primitive form of body armour used by the military forces of the Imperium of Man. It usually consists solely of a breastplate, shoulder pauldrons, knee plates, greaves and helmet and is most commonly used in Imperial Guard Regiments. It provides little protection against heavy weapons but resembles a modern day bulletproof vest in its protective ability"