Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

IG are every army that's carried a rifle ever.

The US's theoretical fighting style would better fit with the Eldar. The actual vehicles weren't as well-protected as your typical Eldar vehicle, though, and it's arguable whether the stabilizers actually worked. So in practice (as opposed to theory) the mobile battle idea didn't work too well...



Eldar tanks have more in common with helicopter gunships, anyway.



For late war Germans, go Necron. Few in number, but often hard to kill. For early war Necron comparisons, you're probably looking at the French instead... (and yes, I know someone's about to start off with the usual French joke. Let it go. The French troops were very motivated. Their problems were at the upper levels. And anyone who mocks them obviously never had to deal with a Char B1 rolling toward them across an open field...).

The British Commonwealth has a lot in common with the IG. Lots of units from all sorts of different backgrounds (Indians, Aussies, etc...), which fits with the IG drawing their regiments from a wide variety of worlds. Lots of mechanization (iirc, the British were the first army to be completely motorized). And some really heavy armor on a couple of their tanks (Matildas during the early period; late model Churchills toward the end).

ChrisWWII wrote:

Melissia wrote:Thing is, just like with Soviet tanks, Imperial tanks are some of the best in the galaxy. They may be mass produced but they're also GOOD.

So who are the Germans then? The guys with the few tanks that kick total ass, but they just don't have enough of them?

My vote is for Eldar.

Space Marines. Overcomplicated, inefficient, and not all that good when it comes down to it. They've also got the "clownishly inept strategists" aspect the Nazis had, too!

Yeah, you sure know a lot about Space Marines and Nazis.

Wardragoon wrote:Okay guys this is just my opinion,but Imperial Guard kind of strike me as the United States Army Rangers of the imperium wherein pdf are like the standard army, reasoning behind this logic is the comparitive sizes of those forces, iirc most Imperial guard units are like 60000 men, with support staff, so thats, Wherein PDF forces tend to number in the hundreds of thousands, am I the only one who thinks this or do you guys think the same?

More like Regular Inf, Kasrkin are Rangers, and Space Marines are SF, Techmarines, are Corp of Engineers, Apothecaries are Medics, and Orks are...the enemy?

Space Marines aren't Special Forces, that's Stormtroopers (whom, I should note, are generally a slight bit superior to Kasrkin, having superior training from the Schola Progenium while having the same general experience and skills).

We have no equivalent to Space Marines.

Techmarines aren't the corps of engineers. I assume you mean Techpriests? Marines are basically nonexistent for the purposes of determining who will fight in any random given battle in 40k, and Techmarines are rare even amongst marines. Apothecaries aren't very much medics, either. That would probably go to the actual medics, or if you need a dedicated force, the Sisters Hospitaller of the Adepta Sororitas.

Yes we do, soccer moms.

Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Yes we do, soccer moms.

Closest thing we could do is have an army of lesbians and try to sync up 'that time of month' and if you succeed and unleash them during PMS, well you will get close to the same result as when SMs hit a system.

Melissia wrote:Space Marines aren't Special Forces, that's Stormtroopers (whom, I should note, are generally a slight bit superior to Kasrkin, having superior training from the Schola Progenium while having the same general experience and skills).

Bull.

Stormtroopers, while "trained by the Schola Progenium" are far from "having superior training".
The Eye of Terror Codex has a blurb from a Commissar, who as we know are required to serve in Stormtrooper units/regular Guard units before getting their shiny cap and bolt pistol, where he calls the methods being used to train the freaking Whiteshields as "barbarous and exceeding anything he experienced in his Schola Progenium training".

The Kasrkin come from that background of training, having "grown up hard". They also do not have the "same general experience" in that Stormtroopers are very rarely serving in standard Guard regiments before they get elevated into the training programs that are used for their specialty. Kasrkin have to go through their stints in the Whiteshields and at least a year or so in a 'standard' Shock Troop Regiment.

If they're not killed off, they're shipped to Cadia's very own version of the 'Schola Progenium' in the Caducus region. Then they'll get the chance to become a Kasrkin.

They don't just get born into it like the Stormtroopers do. Quality varies stupidly from Stormtrooper Regiment to Stormtrooper Regiment, where some will be barely above your average Cadian to some being on par with the Kasrkin.

I should also add that Stormtroopers are trained for more 'covert' operations, while Kasrkin are trained in the more 'overt' operation methodology. Theirs is not to sneak in and plant charges--theirs is to kick the door down and throw in a pipebomb.

Suffice to say, Kasrkin don't often have a high life expectancy. They're not used in operations where they'll usually be extracted afterwards. They're the guys standing at the back, holding off the gibbering hordes while high command and the rest evac to fight another day.

We have no equivalent to Space Marines.

Um, actually we do.
It's called "Special Operations Command".
Precision application of force leveraged by sheer violence and rapidity of the operation.

Kanluwen wrote:Stormtroopers, while "trained by the Schola Progenium" are far from "having superior training".

Kanluwen wrote:

Melissia wrote:Space Marines aren't Special Forces, that's Stormtroopers (whom, I should note, are generally a slight bit superior to Kasrkin, having superior training from the Schola Progenium while having the same general experience and skills).

Bull.

Stormtroopers, while "trained by the Schola Progenium" are far from "having superior training".
The Eye of Terror Codex has a blurb from a Commissar, who as we know are required to serve in Stormtrooper units/regular Guard units before getting their shiny cap and bolt pistol, where he calls the methods being used to train the freaking Whiteshields as "barbarous and exceeding anything he experienced in his Schola Progenium training".

The Kasrkin come from that background of training, having "grown up hard". They also do not have the "same general experience" in that Stormtroopers are very rarely serving in standard Guard regiments before they get elevated into the training programs that are used for their specialty. Kasrkin have to go through their stints in the Whiteshields and at least a year or so in a 'standard' Shock Troop Regiment.

If they're not killed off, they're shipped to Cadia's very own version of the 'Schola Progenium' in the Caducus region. Then they'll get the chance to become a Kasrkin.

They don't just get born into it like the Stormtroopers do. Quality varies stupidly from Stormtrooper Regiment to Stormtrooper Regiment, where some will be barely above your average Cadian to some being on par with the Kasrkin.

I should also add that Stormtroopers are trained for more 'covert' operations, while Kasrkin are trained in the more 'overt' operation methodology. Theirs is not to sneak in and plant charges--theirs is to kick the door down and throw in a pipebomb.

Suffice to say, Kasrkin don't often have a high life expectancy. They're not used in operations where they'll usually be extracted afterwards. They're the guys standing at the back, holding off the gibbering hordes while high command and the rest evac to fight another day.

We have no equivalent to Space Marines.

Um, actually we do.
It's called "Special Operations Command".
Precision application of force leveraged by sheer violence and rapidity of the operation.

I would say now after several of the arguments that Veterans are like Rangers for instance Catachans, wherein stormtroopers in fluff tend to operate like SF do now, SM are in a league of their own.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Stormtroopers, while "trained by the Schola Progenium" are far from "having superior training".

Except they are. The quality and standardization at the Schola Progenium consistently produces better recruits than anywhere else in the Imperium.

Kanluwen wrote:
By the by:

Kasrkin takes on a Daemonhost, unbound, with nothing but a knife in his hand and his throat ripped open.

Ball's in your court.

And Harker hunts lictors for fun.

Well that's good for him. Lictors are whimps compared to a pissed off, unbound Daemonhost.

Kanluwen wrote:But really. I'm not sold on that. If it were true, then I'm pretty sure we'd not see them given nicknames like "Toy Soldiers" or "Glory Boys".

As opposed to Cadians being given nicknames such as meat shield, flashlight and paper shirt?

Nicknames are irrelevant.

Kanluwen wrote:Kasrkin takes on a Daemonhost, unbound, with nothing but a knife in his hand and his throat ripped open.

And Cain took on a full blown daemon with nothing but a rusty bayonet and a bottle of holy water. Mind you, he's Cain, but still.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:But really. I'm not sold on that. If it were true, then I'm pretty sure we'd not see them given nicknames like "Toy Soldiers" or "Glory Boys".

As opposed to Cadians being given nicknames such as meat shield, flashlight and paper shirt?

Nicknames are irrelevant.

Haven't heard those.

Kanluwen wrote:Kasrkin takes on a Daemonhost, unbound, with nothing but a knife in his hand and his throat ripped open.

And Cain took on a full blown daemon with nothing but a rusty bayonet and a bottle of holy water. Mind you, he's Cain, but still.

Holy water? What a cheater!

Geeze...

Even Melissia overlooks poor Jurgen! You'd think she'd at last know better...

Uh, guys, hate to break it to you but technically Special Forces SPECIFICALLY means Green Berets, who have a somewhat different mission than 40k stormtroopers.
I think a better comparison would be USMC Force Recon, or possibly SEALs.
Not that any of this actually matters.

Soldiers opinion: SM are the closest to SF.

DEUS VULT wrote:Uh, guys, hate to break it to you but technically Special Forces SPECIFICALLY means Green Berets, who have a somewhat different mission than 40k stormtroopers.
I think a better comparison would be USMC Force Recon, or possibly SEALs.

iirc, SEALs fall under the unified special forces command these days.

Not sure about Force Recon.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Stormtroopers, while "trained by the Schola Progenium" are far from "having superior training".

Except they are. The quality and standardization at the Schola Progenium consistently produces better recruits than anywhere else in the Imperium.

A brutal training method doesn't necessarily indicate better results.

The average Cadian would have better than or equivalent training to Stormtroopers as far as combat preparation goes. Stormtroopers are trained to fulfill a separate, distinct role, one Cadians would be ill-suited for. One may as well be arguing whether Stormtroopers or Commissars are better, when they, despite having comparable levels of skill, are trained to do very different things.

Kanluwen wrote:Um, actually we do.
It's called "Special Operations Command".
Precision application of force leveraged by sheer violence and rapidity of the operation.

IE stormtroopers.

We still have nothing equivalent to Space Marines.

"A tank" is probably a good fit. Extreme force concentration, mobility, and survivability, while being a large, loud target. The only difference is Space Marines can fit into slightly smaller spaces, and magically don't collapse floors by walking on them.

Actually I think I've read stories where they did just that, or maybe that's just memory playing tricks on me.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The average Cadian would have better than or equivalent training to Stormtroopers as far as combat preparation goes.

Not a chance.

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The average Cadian would have better than or equivalent training to Stormtroopers as far as combat preparation goes.

Not a chance.

If by "not a chance" you mean "indubitably, you are correct sah!"--then I agree.

If not:
Cadians train in live fire exercises from age 8 onwards. They're serving on the frontlines with the Shock Troops in Whiteshield Platoons by age 13.

Stormtroopers don't. They are usually 16-17 years old by the time they 'graduate' the Schola Progenium and are assigned to a Guard regiment.

Even a normal human can cause a particularly weak floor to break under them, if space marines are ever able to walk on ground that isn't solid ground or a reinforced surface like a bulkhead or bunker it's miraculous, seeing as how they weigh several tons and all.

Cadians start training when they're children, just as stormtroopers do. They're trained by combat veterans, constantly, until they're 15 or so, at which point they move on to actually fighting in battles, not being considered proper soldiers until they've done that for several years. Stormtroopers wouldn't necessarily be trained by actual veterans, though it is highly likely, and they're unlikely to have seen actual combat before entering the Guard or Inquisition. So Cadians would have an equivalent level of combat proficiency to Stormtroopers, albeit in a non-Spec Ops capacity.

Kanluwen wrote:Cadians train in live fire exercises from age 8 onwards. They're serving on the frontlines with the Shock Troops in Whiteshield Platoons by age 13.

Stormtroopers don't. They are usually 16-17 years old by the time they 'graduate' the Schola Progenium and are assigned to a Guard regiment.

Schola Progenium training does, in fact, include life fire and even real sorties. I should note the example of the one in Cain's Last Stand for one, and that was just commissars, whom are supposed to be keeping morale, not necessarily fighting themselves.

Schola graduates are veterans by the time they graduate... and yes, that'd be age 17-18 or so. In fact, the entire purpose of the Schola Progenium's Stormtrooper courses is to produce Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, whom themselves are pretty much the elite of human forces, right alongside Sisters.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Cadians train in live fire exercises from age 8 onwards. They're serving on the frontlines with the Shock Troops in Whiteshield Platoons by age 13.

Stormtroopers don't. They are usually 16-17 years old by the time they 'graduate' the Schola Progenium and are assigned to a Guard regiment.

Schola Progenium training does, in fact, include life fire and even real sorties. I should note the example of the one in Cain's Last Stand for one, and that was just commissars, whom are supposed to be keeping morale, not necessarily fighting themselves.

Nothing I've read about that can't be discounted(i.e. Cain, which is meant to be pure propaganda and a parody of a British fiction series) hints at Schola Progenium training including live fire exercises or 'real' sorties.

Schola graduates are veterans by the time they graduate... and yes, that'd be age 17-18 or so. In fact, the entire purpose of the Schola Progenium's Stormtrooper courses is to produce Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, whom themselves are pretty much the elite of human forces, right alongside Sisters.

Bzzt. No it's not.
Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are drawn from the ranks of the Schola Progenium graduates. They're also drawn from Guard veterans and families with a history of servitude with the Inquisition.

I wouldn't call the Sisters "the elite of human forces" by the by. They're motivated, but tend to lack the training to qualify as 'elite'. They also, whether you want to admit it or not, have a very specific role that is similar to the one that the Kasrkin fill(brutal, short range combatants who can take the hits and keep on going).

Kanluwen wrote:(i.e. Cain, which is meant to be pure propaganda and a parody of a British fiction series)

Seriously, is that your damn argument Kan?

Come on.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:(i.e. Cain, which is meant to be pure propaganda and a parody of a British fiction series)

Seriously, is that your damn argument Kan?

Come on.

I could cite "Redemption Squad" if you want.

You know, where the Sisters of Battle are mindcontrolled by Genestealer Hybrids(who take the form of little girls for some reason) and unleash hell upon an Imperial Sector the Tyranids want to conquer.

But if you want that to support your argument, I'm game for it...

I haven't read it. Sounds like bad fan-fiction, and google as well as Black Library's site both have no mention of the novel.

The Ciaphas Cain story isn't just propaganda. In fact, it's (in canon) limited only to Inquisitors and the like, as it contains secrets which are best left unknown to the common populace. Not propaganda, which is intended for the common populace.

Kanluwen wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Cadians train in live fire exercises from age 8 onwards. They're serving on the frontlines with the Shock Troops in Whiteshield Platoons by age 13.

Stormtroopers don't. They are usually 16-17 years old by the time they 'graduate' the Schola Progenium and are assigned to a Guard regiment.

Schola Progenium training does, in fact, include life fire and even real sorties. I should note the example of the one in Cain's Last Stand for one, and that was just commissars, whom are supposed to be keeping morale, not necessarily fighting themselves.

Nothing I've read about that can't be discounted(i.e. Cain, which is meant to be pure propaganda and a parody of a British fiction series) hints at Schola Progenium training including live fire exercises or 'real' sorties.

The Cain series is the exact opposite of propaganda, being framed as the actual memoirs of Cain, detailing events in a manner contrary to the more theatrical propaganda of his officially released memoirs. That's not the issue with that instance, though, but that those Schola students happened to be nearing the end of their training when a war broke out, and so wound up fighting in actual battles. I'd imagine they have live-fire exercises as standard, but actually being thrown into a warzone years before being considered an actual soldier is certainly not a standard Schola practice.

Cadia itself is basically one giant fortified military academy, situated in the only permanent warzone in the Imperium as it is. The soldiers it produces have received as much training or more than those of students in the Schola, including extensive genuine combat experience prior to deployment. On the tabletop, actual Cadians would have to be represented with veterans, and their whiteshields would be normal infantry squads; the assumption is that most Guard armies are simply Cadian patterned, so their standard troops are normal infantry squads, veterans are veterans, and emergency conscripts are conscripts (and, realistically, they're completely useless for their cost). The only improvements Stormtroopers have over Cadian standard infantry are their equipment and Spec Ops specific training (insertion, infiltration, etc).