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Melissia wrote:

I have fought and beaten the liveing crap out of IG before

I've destroyed a Marine army with my Guard army while suffering only a single casualty.

I also once play DoW game for 3 hours without single casualty, and I was Imperial Guard against 3 insane CPU.

We are deferentially win

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halonachos wrote:I've seen a sniper drone take out a terminator in close combat and I've had a squad of ratlings take fire from a 10,000 points SM army in one shooting round and lose only three guys... I know its possible, but I just can't think about it. Poor rolls with marines finally getting to get a couple of shots off.

In DoW game, my FireWarrior killed Eldar Avatar in close combat. I did the same with Chaos Lord and Guardsman ( the Guardsman have even killed him with his special move ).

Naw, certainly not Ranger quality. US army rangers arent used as cannon fodder. Nor do they have penal battalions or conscripts.

WH40KGuy757 wrote:Naw, certainly not Ranger quality. US army rangers arent used as cannon fodder. Nor do they have penal battalions or conscripts.

Why do we keep getting people who think the IG are crap cannon fodder?

ChrisWWII wrote:

WH40KGuy757 wrote:Naw, certainly not Ranger quality. US army rangers arent used as cannon fodder. Nor do they have penal battalions or conscripts.

Why do we keep getting people who think the IG are crap cannon fodder?

Blame space marine fluff.

WH40KGuy757 wrote:Naw, certainly not Ranger quality. US army rangers arent used as cannon fodder. Nor do they have penal battalions or conscripts.

Nor are Stormtroopers...or Kasrkins.


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ChrisWWII wrote:
Why do we keep getting people who think the IG are crap cannon fodder?

Because people are short-sided.

A better question would be how many times does that get said and refuted on each page of this thread?

At least three times each page. It really is amazing how many people just jump in nine pages on without reading the thread, only to have their argument countered for the thirtieth time.

Well, there are cases (numerous cases) where the IG idea idea of quality is equivalent to Iraq's Youth Battalion.






Similar methods in clearing minefields as well.

There's not though. There are few cases in which the Guard stereotype is fulfilled, everywhere else paints a general picture of the Guard as being a well-equipped, trained and disciplined war machine, which is why it's frustrating to see people with no general idea of anything, jump into the thread with a view that's been refuted numerous times on nearly every fething page.

I've never seen the stereotype fulfilled when it's not a pointlessly malicious leader just trying to kill some troops he doesn't like for an arbitrary reason (as in both of the first Gaunt's Ghosts books, and probably others later as well, but I stopped reading after the first few chapters of Necropolis), or a book where the author seems to be generally confused about the distinction between Guard and PDF, and generally terrible elsewhere as well.

halonachos wrote:@ Melissia, how in the world do you suffer only one casualty in a game? If they were footsloggin SM then I can see maybe a squad, but one guy only?

I lost one chimera due to it being wrecked by a missile launcher. Thus, one casualty ^.^

Remember, there are noobs out there. My entire point was that you don't use tabletop results to show the fluff.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, there are cases (numerous cases) where the IG idea idea of quality is equivalent to Iraq's Youth Battalion.

Similar methods in clearing minefields as well.

a) That was Iran's Youth thingamajig.

b) Eh, the only time I can think of that happening in fluff is Chenkov's entry in the codex. And Chenkov is famous for being a ruthless son of a so his methods are obviously far from the estabished norm in the IG.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I've never seen the stereotype fulfilled when it's not a pointlessly malicious leader just trying to kill some troops he doesn't like for an arbitrary reason (as in both of the first Gaunt's Ghosts books, and probably others later as well, but I stopped reading after the first few chapters of Necropolis), or a book where the author seems to be generally confused about the distinction between Guard and PDF, and generally terrible elsewhere as well.

Really? I mean, IG novels alone are chock-full of them. Ussually there's one impressivly competent/experience regiment surrounded by a mix of regiments with varying degrees of quality. The 'better' regiments provide the protaginists, while the newly-founded/blue-blood/incompetent PDF or IG regiments provide the majority of the corpses. One example of which is the Gaunts Ghosts novels.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, there are cases (numerous cases) where the IG idea idea of quality is equivalent to Iraq's Youth Battalion.

Similar methods in clearing minefields as well.

a) That was Iran's Youth thingamajig.

How about we settle it at Persian Youth Battalion...thingy.

b) Eh, the only time I can think of that happening in fluff is Chenkov's entry in the codex. And Chenkov is famous for being a ruthless son of a so his methods are obviously far from the estabished norm in the IG.

Maybe he is an extremity, but if anything his methods are approved of, not viewed as wasteful and lacking in tactical ability.

That is not necessarily true. His methods are allowed, but certainly a great many Imperial tacticians and generals would try to find a reason to shoot him on sight.

So would his own soldiers. Frankly the idea that he survives more than a decade doing this is unrealistic even in 40k, his own men would kill him.

Indeed. Most IG commander's I've read about seem to think the whole "throw more men at it and see what sticks" a waste of time and resources. They may not care about their men, but they don't want to throw them away either.

EDIT: Plus most Guardsmen seem to remove such officers themselves, it doesn't matter how "fearsome" a commander is. eventually they'll have enough and shoot him in the back while the commissar isn't looking.

Melissia wrote:That is not necessarily true. His methods are allowed, but certainly a great many Imperial tacticians and generals would try to find a reason to shoot him on sight.

He recieved the Merit of the High Lords (though I'm not sure if that is some sort of honorific or simply a sign of approval from the High Lords) when he stormed the fortress of Kortrax without any sort of siege equipment. In 40k methods seem to often take a back seat to results.
There are plenty of tacticians and generals that would view him as a damn monster, just as there are many that would turn a blind eye (or even approve of) his methods, and applaud his achievements.

So would his own soldiers. Frankly the idea that he survives more than a decade doing this is unrealistic even in 40k, his own men would kill him.

I'm shocked that they haven't. Seeing as he fights from the front, a 'stray round' would easily take care of him. It probably has something to do with him getting them all killed before they have a chance to object, or act.


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Also, according to the new codex pg 38, Lasguns with variable power settings are realtively rare (as far as lasguns go). The Cadian, Catachan, Mars and Armageddon patterns don't seem to have it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:That is not necessarily true. His methods are allowed, but certainly a great many Imperial tacticians and generals would try to find a reason to shoot him on sight.

He recieved the Merit of the High Lords (though I'm not sure if that is some sort of honorific or simply a sign of approval from the High Lords) when he stormed the fortress of Kortrax without any sort of siege equipment. In 40k methods seem to often take a back seat to results.
There are plenty of tacticians and generals that would view him as a damn monster, just as there are many that would turn a blind eye (or even approve of) his methods, and applaud his achievements.

So would his own soldiers. Frankly the idea that he survives more than a decade doing this is unrealistic even in 40k, his own men would kill him.

I'm shocked that they haven't. Seeing as he fights from the front, a 'stray round' would easily take care of him. It probably has something to do with him getting them all killed before they have a chance to object, or act.

"Honestly Commisar, we were just providing fire support, we didn't know that our frag missile would curve like that."

Lord Harrab wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:That is not necessarily true. His methods are allowed, but certainly a great many Imperial tacticians and generals would try to find a reason to shoot him on sight.

He recieved the Merit of the High Lords (though I'm not sure if that is some sort of honorific or simply a sign of approval from the High Lords) when he stormed the fortress of Kortrax without any sort of siege equipment. In 40k methods seem to often take a back seat to results.
There are plenty of tacticians and generals that would view him as a damn monster, just as there are many that would turn a blind eye (or even approve of) his methods, and applaud his achievements.

So would his own soldiers. Frankly the idea that he survives more than a decade doing this is unrealistic even in 40k, his own men would kill him.

I'm shocked that they haven't. Seeing as he fights from the front, a 'stray round' would easily take care of him. It probably has something to do with him getting them all killed before they have a chance to object, or act.

"Honestly Commisar, we were just providing fire support, we didn't know that our frag missile would divert like that."

Heh heres a better one, "Sir, it seems that the deathstrike missile malfunctioned and seemed to hit Commander Chenkov"

My guess is that whoever drew up/approved of the commendation for his medal probably conveniently ignored the casualties due to the results, lets face it, headlines like 'Valhallan Commander end's year long siege within days of taking command at Kotrax', remember propaganda is the one thing the IoM knows how to do.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, according to the new codex pg 38, Lasguns with variable power settings are realtively rare (as far as lasguns go). The Cadian, Catachan, Mars and Armageddon patterns don't seem to have it.

Seeing ast he new codex was written by someone who didn't know the damn difference between a hellgun and a lasgun using hoshotk charge packs, I don't buy this for an instant.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, according to the new codex pg 38, Lasguns with variable power settings are realtively rare (as far as lasguns go). The Cadian, Catachan, Mars and Armageddon patterns don't seem to have it.

Seeing ast he new codex was written by someone who didn't know the damn difference between a hellgun and a lasgun using hoshotk charge packs, I don't buy this for an instant.

I think its probably luck thats prevented Ogryns from using spoons as weapons in the codex

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, according to the new codex pg 38, Lasguns with variable power settings are realtively rare (as far as lasguns go). The Cadian, Catachan, Mars and Armageddon patterns don't seem to have it.

Seeing ast he new codex was written by someone who didn't know the damn difference between a hellgun and a lasgun using hoshotk charge packs, I don't buy this for an instant.

Rejecting a source becuase it disagrees with you? How innovative!

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, according to the new codex pg 38, Lasguns with variable power settings are realtively rare (as far as lasguns go). The Cadian, Catachan, Mars and Armageddon patterns don't seem to have it.

Seeing ast he new codex was written by someone who didn't know the damn difference between a hellgun and a lasgun using hoshotk charge packs, I don't buy this for an instant.

Rejecting a source becuase it disagrees with you? How innovative!

Wait a minute this is 40k, you have to ignore sources because they cant even agree on the color of the sky

I disagree with it, and I reject it, but one did not cause the other.

Melissia wrote:I disagree with it, and I reject it, but one did not cause the other.

Sorry, just reminded me of the "I reject your reality and replace it with my own" quote.

Lord Harrab wrote:"Honestly Commisar, we were just providing fire support, we didn't know that our frag missile would curve like that."

This is, of course, one of the primary motivations for Commisar Cain. Ironically, it also happened to him... though for entirely different reasons.



As I stated earlier, imo the best model for the IG is the Soviet army of 1944-45. By that point in time...

- Most of the units had a degree of tactical sense that was missing from the fresh conscripts of 1942 and 1943 (though said tactical sense was frequently earned with the blood of now-dead companions).
- The Soviet Union had a lot of men and wasn't afraid to expend them... but at the same time the leadership also recognized that their manpower reserves weren't truly limitless. Unlike in the earlier years of the war, there was a view that expending men simply for the sake of expending men was a really bad idea. Reasonable (for a given value of reasonable, of course) attempts to limit casualties were made, though that didn't mean that stupid decisions weren't still sometimes made up top (such as the mad race to grab Berlin, which killed a lot of Soviet troops who probably shouldn't have died).
- Due to Lend-Lease support from the US and Great Britain, the Soviet Army finally had enough vehicles to motorize vast segments of their infantry (the Soviet factories largely built tanks and armored cars; the transports mostly came from across the Atlantic). This created a somewhat mobile army. They didn't have much in the way of APC support yet (halftracks were a bit of a luxury for them at the time), but the basics were in place.
- In an aversion to the second point, the Soviets maintained Penal Batallions that contained "politically unreliable" individuals. These were frequently used to "scout" out enemy defenses by sending the men forward and marking the positions of the guns that fired at them. The way out of such units was typically by receiving a serious enough wound that you were sent to a hospital in the rear.
- The Soviets had LOTS of very large caliber artillery guns, howitzers, and rockets. And they weren't afraid to use them.

I've heard that the commisars were being removed from their battlefield positions at that point in time, though, which doesn't fit with one of the best known elements of the IG.

That's probably the best modern day army to compare to a generalization of the Imperial Guard. Mass produced weaponry and tanks, with a command that realized that it could expend men but doses't want to do it unnecessarily. I difference would be the base training of the line troops, which is a lot better on average than Soviet mass conscriptions with some battlefield experience.

Thing is, just like with Soviet tanks, Imperial tanks are some of the best in the galaxy. They may be mass produced but they're also GOOD.

iproxtaco wrote:I difference would be the base training of the line troops, which is a lot better on average than Soviet mass conscriptions with some battlefield experience.

My understanding is that even today Russian training isn't very good for most of the line units. There are some units that get good training (the airborne for one, iirc), but by and large you're not looking at high quality troops. It's a mix of conscription (still used, as is the case in most armies in the world these days), brutality (corporal punishment is apparently still popular), a non-Western view of how NCOs are meant to be used, and high levels of corruption in the military causing lowered morale amongst the troops (iirc, the current amount of "vanished" military spending money in the Russian military budget is on the order of 20%... which is down from the 33% number from a few years ago; President Medvedev is *very* unhappy about those numbers, needless to say).

Melissia wrote:Thing is, just like with Soviet tanks, Imperial tanks are some of the best in the galaxy. They may be mass produced but they're also GOOD.

So who are the Germans then? The guys with the few tanks that kick total ass, but they just don't have enough of them?

My vote is for Eldar.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Melissia wrote:Thing is, just like with Soviet tanks, Imperial tanks are some of the best in the galaxy. They may be mass produced but they're also GOOD.

So who are the Germans then? The guys with the few tanks that kick total ass, but they just don't have enough of them?

My vote is for Eldar.

German tanks are too slow to be Eldar.