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Kanluwen wrote:It's 25-60 shots in a combat setting, where troopers ramp up the power being drained for each shot. Anycharge shot would feasibly be stopped by flak armor. The 'combat' setting can deal significantly more damage, while not damaging the charge pack.

Fixed that for you then.

Codex rules to fluff is a bit hard to grasp, but lasguns operate like phasers in star trek I guess. Gaunt's Ghosts had a training section using low settings.

Hellguns vs Hot Shot, hellgun sounds like some a space marine would get. Now a Hot Shot Lasgun sounds like something a bad ass member of the IG would carry, mainly because it has the word 'lasgun' in it.

I mean plasma cannon to plasmagun has a little bit of difference in its damage, meltacannon to meltagun has little difference, lascannon to lasgun... and someone didn't get the picture.

Which is irrelevant. Hellguns are what they're called. In truth, the majority of hellguns are used by the Mechanicus' Skitarii anyway, what with Stormtroopers being comparatively rare (although still overwhelmingly more common than Astartes).

Melissia wrote:INdeed they do. But at the same time, the PDF in the first book are generally incompetent, and probably closer to the norm.

The first book? Inquisitor Veil was of the opinion that this had a lot to do with the Tau insurgency. And despite Cain's pesimissim, the PDF's he encountered were generally competent. Certainly above the level of a 'weekend warrior' National Guard unit. In most cases, despite Cain's Besides, the Imperial Guard codex itself states that the scorn given by the Imperial Guard is largely undeserved.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:INdeed they do. But at the same time, the PDF in the first book are generally incompetent, and probably closer to the norm.

The first book? Inquisitor Veil was of the opinion that this had a lot to do with the Tau insurgency. And despite Cain's pesimissim, the PDF's he encountered were generally competent. Certainly above the level of a 'weekend warrior' National Guard unit. In most cases, despite Cain's Besides, the Imperial Guard codex itself states that the scorn given by the Imperial Guard is largely undeserved.

Y'know, here's the biggest reason the Guard scorn the PDF.

More often than not, when the Guard are deployed to fight on Imperial worlds--they're fighting the PDF turned renegade.

Look at "Cadian Blood". Some of the PDF remained loyal--but the majority during the outbreak of the Plague of Unbelief renounced their oaths and devoted themselves to Nurgle.
Look at the Taros campaign--the Tau would have been easier to crush, had they not had PDF assets that could defend stationary defenses that could target the Imperial fleet assets.
Look at Vraks--Krieg was fighting the leftover PDF of Vraks and cultists who volunteered.
Hell, look at the Badab War. The majority of Huron's forces were PDF.

Yeah but sometimes the Guard go Chaos and the PDF have to defend against them. So we'll just call it even.

Except Guard regiments going full-stop over to Chaos is rare.

PDF going over to any cause that promises them glory isn't.

Kanluwen wrote:Y'know, here's the biggest reason the Guard scorn the PDF.

More often than not, when the Guard are deployed to fight on Imperial worlds--they're fighting the PDF turned renegade.

Then their scorn would be directed at the PDF's loyalty, not their competence.

Look at "Cadian Blood". Some of the PDF remained loyal--but the majority during the outbreak of the Plague of Unbelief renounced their oaths and devoted themselves to Nurgle.
Look at the Taros campaign--the Tau would have been easier to crush, had they not had PDF assets that could defend stationary defenses that could target the Imperial fleet assets.
Look at Vraks--Krieg was fighting the leftover PDF of Vraks and cultists who volunteered.
Hell, look at the Badab War. The majority of Huron's forces were PDF.

And there are no doubt many campaigns where the PDF formed the bulk of the armed forces, or sacrificed the most before the Imperial Guard arrived.

And Gaurdsmen aren't immune to treachery themselves.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Y'know, here's the biggest reason the Guard scorn the PDF.

More often than not, when the Guard are deployed to fight on Imperial worlds--they're fighting the PDF turned renegade.

Then their scorn would be directed at the PDF's loyalty, not their competence.

With Chaos, competence sometimes declines when you start devoting yourself to it.

While yes, Khorne isn't necessarily the God of Murder--he's also not necessarily the God of Sound Tactics And Reasonable Combat Methodology.
There's a reason the Blood Pact were unique and especially feared in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. They were basically the Guard's dark mirror.

Look at "Cadian Blood". Some of the PDF remained loyal--but the majority during the outbreak of the Plague of Unbelief renounced their oaths and devoted themselves to Nurgle.
Look at the Taros campaign--the Tau would have been easier to crush, had they not had PDF assets that could defend stationary defenses that could target the Imperial fleet assets.
Look at Vraks--Krieg was fighting the leftover PDF of Vraks and cultists who volunteered.
Hell, look at the Badab War. The majority of Huron's forces were PDF.

And there are no doubt many campaigns where the PDF formed the bulk of the armed forces, or sacrificed the most before the Imperial Guard arrived.

Maybe. Dunno for certain though.

And Guardsmen aren't immune to treachery themselves.

Didn't say they weren't. It's just a bit more rare.

Kanluwen wrote:With Chaos, competence sometimes declines when you start devoting yourself to it.

While yes, Khorne isn't necessarily the God of Murder--he's also not necessarily the God of Sound Tactics And Reasonable Combat Methodology.
There's a reason the Blood Pact were unique and especially feared in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. They were basically the Guard's dark mirror.

I was talking about loyal PDF competence. Though I do like the sound of "God of Sound Tactics and Reasonable Combat Methodolgy".

And there are no doubt many campaigns where the PDF formed the bulk of the armed forces, or sacrificed the most before the Imperial Guard arrived.

Maybe. Dunno for certain though.

odmiller wrote:



Well, after going back 4 pages of how many shots in a magazine, I gave up looking for anyone answering the OP question. Sorry about that. Your explanation is fine.

meh no need to apologise it was more clear and succinct, seeing as this genius op forgot about veterans

To the OP: Um, NO! Hammer of the Freak'n Emperor!!! Not PDF losers

Melissia wrote:Which is irrelevant. Hellguns are what they're called. In truth, the majority of hellguns are used by the Mechanicus' Skitarii anyway, what with Stormtroopers being comparatively rare (although still overwhelmingly more common than Astartes).

Hellguns or hot shot lasgun, either way Space Marines don't use them. Storm troopers had hellguns which were ineffective compared to the new rules that label them as Hot Shot Lasguns. Seeing as though Codexes are the main source of accepted fluff, Hot Shot Lasguns are better and what are currently used by storm troopers.

The PDF are described as being equivalent to the IG in some cases due to the fact that the PDF deals with all sorts of threats. Dark Eldar raiders are dealt with by the PDF, Ork invasions are dealt with by the PDF at first, cult groups are dealt with by the PDF at first, and so on. If the PDF can't deal with it then the IG come in. If the IG can't deal with it either more IG come in, SM come in, Inquisitors come in, or GK come in. Or they just let the planet go to hell because they forgot about it.

The Guard codex still refers to hotshot lasguns as hellguns, in the paragraph describing them.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Recall that PDF troops have an amount of training equivalent to the modern US army, Guardsmen have twice that, and Stormtroopers started undergoing Spec Ops intensity training when they were six or seven at the latest, and have had more than a decade of training that only increased from there before being deployed. Veterans rank next to Stormtroopers in raw skill, if not in operational use.

I disagree. Everything I have seen in books, etc. has shown that PDF receive rudimentary training at best, I think 3-6 months is the number quoted in Dead Men Walking. In the US military you aren't really fully trained until after 2 years once you factor in all the advanced training you get following basic, etc.

Vaktathi wrote:

Nightwalker wrote:The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

Uh, if by Fodder you mean the primary military force that fights and wins the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Imperium's wars without ever seeing a single Space Marine boot?

The only way they win is by throwing enough soldiers at it until they finally killing it or the enemy force gts bored of killing the Imperial Gaurdan leaves

I assume you havent read any IG fluff, there are many times where the guard wins via strategy, though the whole 'send in the next wave' tactic is a time honored classic, and lets not ignore the fact that they have the most armor in the IoM.

Nightwalker wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Nightwalker wrote:The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

Uh, if by Fodder you mean the primary military force that fights and wins the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Imperium's wars without ever seeing a single Space Marine boot?

The only way they win is by throwing enough soldiers at it until they finally killing it or the enemy force gts bored of killing the Imperial Gaurdan leaves

Or, you know, when the IG crushes you and your allies under tread and boot.

The stereotype of the IG that you seem to believe is true, is in fact, not true.

Nerivant wrote:

Nightwalker wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Nightwalker wrote:The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

Uh, if by Fodder you mean the primary military force that fights and wins the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Imperium's wars without ever seeing a single Space Marine boot?

The only way they win is by throwing enough soldiers at it until they finally killing it or the enemy force gts bored of killing the Imperial Gaurdan leaves

Or, you know, when the IG crushes you and your allies under tread and boot.

The stereotype of the IG that you seem to believe is true, is in fact, not true.

I have fought and beaten the liveing crap out of IG before

I am thinking most decent players can say the same for any faction, it doesnt mean much when it comes largely to dice rolls

Nightwalker wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Nightwalker wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Nightwalker wrote:The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

Uh, if by Fodder you mean the primary military force that fights and wins the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Imperium's wars without ever seeing a single Space Marine boot?

The only way they win is by throwing enough soldiers at it until they finally killing it or the enemy force gts bored of killing the Imperial Gaurdan leaves

Or, you know, when the IG crushes you and your allies under tread and boot.

The stereotype of the IG that you seem to believe is true, is in fact, not true.

I have fought and beaten the liveing crap out of IG before

I didn't know you were some Xenos Chaos Champion in the 41st millennium! How are the Trollians doing right now?

chaos0xomega wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Recall that PDF troops have an amount of training equivalent to the modern US army, Guardsmen have twice that, and Stormtroopers started undergoing Spec Ops intensity training when they were six or seven at the latest, and have had more than a decade of training that only increased from there before being deployed. Veterans rank next to Stormtroopers in raw skill, if not in operational use.

I disagree. Everything I have seen in books, etc. has shown that PDF receive rudimentary training at best, I think 3-6 months is the number quoted in Dead Men Walking. In the US military you aren't really fully trained until after 2 years once you factor in all the advanced training you get following basic, etc.

And? Even if you believe PDF's have such a low training standard, how would the Guard be much better? They're trained in transit to whatever hellhole they're sent to. Sometimes that travel can mean years, but it's more often a matter of months, if not weeks.

Nightwalker wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
Or, you know, when the IG crushes you and your allies under tread and boot.

The stereotype of the IG that you seem to believe is true, is in fact, not true.

I have fought and beaten the liveing crap out of IG before

Uh, what?

Every hear of gameplay/story segregation?

Nightwalker wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Nightwalker wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Nightwalker wrote:The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

Uh, if by Fodder you mean the primary military force that fights and wins the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Imperium's wars without ever seeing a single Space Marine boot?

The only way they win is by throwing enough soldiers at it until they finally killing it or the enemy force gts bored of killing the Imperial Gaurdan leaves

Or, you know, when the IG crushes you and your allies under tread and boot.

The stereotype of the IG that you seem to believe is true, is in fact, not true.

I have fought and beaten the liveing crap out of IG before

I've destroyed a Marine army with my Guard army while suffering only a single casualty.

Footsloggin' fool


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Guard codex still refers to hotshot lasguns as hellguns, in the paragraph describing them.

And the Guard codex is wrong.

Nightwalker wrote:
The only way they win is by throwing enough soldiers at it until they finally killing it or the enemy force gts bored of killing the Imperial Gaurdan leaves

I'm not going to even bother replying.



And yes, the Guard codex is wrong on the hotshot vs. hellgun debate. Hotshot laspacks are modified lasgun clips that are often used in sniper rifles and other such things when more power is needed than a standard pack provides.

Hellguns are different weapons that are issued to Stormtroopers, and they draw power from a small generator backpack, thus allowing them to fire a round much more powerful than a standard lasgun can.

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Guard codex still refers to hotshot lasguns as hellguns, in the paragraph describing them.

And the Guard codex is wrong.

The Guard Codex entry for Hot-shot lasguns is simply the entry for Hellgun, with "hellgun" replaced with "hot-shot lasgun" for some stupid reason.

Like, did you know that the Wargear entry for the "Hot-Shot Lasgun" on page 46 reads as:
"The hot-shot lasgun uses a more powerful, external energy cell. This allows the hellgun to project a much more powerful and more penetrating shot."

Fun, right?

Yeah, that's just amateur.

Right, the implication was that the author seems to be confused about the distinction. Or is inarticulately trying to imply that what the stormtroopers are using are hellguns with upgraded packs, to explain the disparity between them and the earlier version of hellguns.

@ Melissia, how in the world do you suffer only one casualty in a game? If they were footsloggin SM then I can see maybe a squad, but one guy only?

@ Gaming used to define stereotypes; I've had a grey knights player march run his GK into the direct fire line of my basilisk once, easiest kills ever.

halonachos wrote:@ Melissia, how in the world do you suffer only one casualty in a game? If they were footsloggin SM then I can see maybe a squad, but one guy only?

Not that hard with a Tank heavy force. Against footslogging Marines that would be a damned nightmare.

I've seen a sniper drone take out a terminator in close combat and I've had a squad of ratlings take fire from a 10,000 points SM army in one shooting round and lose only three guys... I know its possible, but I just can't think about it. Poor rolls with marines finally getting to get a couple of shots off.