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Brother Coa wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually it has hundreds of shots at its basic setting. Which just goes to show how high the highest power setting is I suppose.

Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't cannon.

Why not? Dan Abnet was helping them about fluff with Graham McNeill. It's same thing as saying that Imperial Armory isn't fluff.


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Melissia wrote:High (not full) power is enough to cut through power armor and decapitate a Marine. I hardly think that normal power settings would have any problems dealing with pottery.

Please read this entire page for explanation.

It gives no explanation. YOU think it isn't for no real reason. It was written, by published by, approved by, is still sold by, GW. Everything in it is approved cannon.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Please read this entire page for explanation.

Even if there is a statement that "Leman Russ fire black holes on enemy" it is still fluff. Like books, like comics, like codex.

iproxtaco wrote:It gives no explanation. YOU think it isn't for no real reason. It was written, by published by, approved by, is still sold by, GW. Everything in it is approved cannon.

Sigh, I'm just talking about the ammo part. As I said if one thing contradicts everything else then its logical to conclude the one exception is an error. Just like it's illogical to come to the opposite conclusion.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't cannon

The proof is in the pudding. If IIUP is backed up by the various other sources already given, wherever you get your info from is wrong, as it's in the minority.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

I know your on Necropolis now so I'll give you a little preview of the next one. As I said before despite their light infantry status the Tanith are quite an advanced regiment/people. Besides the directional, personal micro-beads and camoline cloaks their Nalwood-pattern Lasguns are totally kickass. The don't use the same power cell as the vast bulk of The Imperium. They're a bit of a pain in the ass as far as the Munitorium is concerned.

You'll have to remember that it wasn't that the Ghosts have a weird power pack, but the Munitorum staffer assigned to them came from a world where a 'standard laspack' was a size 2 or whatever the hell it was. When the Ghosts put in a request for 'standard laspacks' they failed to specify the actual size, and the staffer assumed they meant a standard from the world he was assigned to.

It wasn't an issue of being hard to supply, it was an issue of people on both sides being idiots and not communicating properly leading to a logistics foulup.

iproxtaco wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't cannon

The proof is in the pudding. If IIUP is backed up by the various other sources already given, wherever you get your info from is wrong, as it's in the minority.

BRB, IA, and DH say about 50 shots. Explain how they are wrong please.


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ChrisWWII wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

I know your on Necropolis now so I'll give you a little preview of the next one. As I said before despite their light infantry status the Tanith are quite an advanced regiment/people. Besides the directional, personal micro-beads and camoline cloaks their Nalwood-pattern Lasguns are totally kickass. The don't use the same power cell as the vast bulk of The Imperium. They're a bit of a pain in the ass as far as the Munitorium is concerned.

You'll have to remember that it wasn't that the Ghosts have a weird power pack, but the Munitorum staffer assigned to them came from a world where a 'standard laspack' was a size 2 or whatever the hell it was. When the Ghosts put in a request for 'standard laspacks' they failed to specify the actual size, and the staffer assumed they meant a standard from the world he was assigned to.

It wasn't an issue of being hard to supply, it was an issue of people on both sides being idiots and not communicating properly leading to a logistics foulup.

Like I said a superior las pack is not stated but could be assumed. I'm more of the opinion now that the Vitrian lasgun at max power has a heck of a kick if it can blow a Chaos Marines head off. They're probably in the 20 rounds or less catagory which would explain the 3:1 ratio for the Tanith clips.

It's not a very good assumption. IIRC the problem was basically the size, not the feed. The Guardsman giving the Munitorum guy the lecture was very clear on the fact that his lasgun could take ANY laspack, as long as it was the right size. This was the problem. The size of the laspack was wrong to put it into the Ghost's lasguns, so they had to go into battel with a much lighter load than usual .

But yeah, remember, a lasgun is a laser, even at max power a 'heck of a lot of kick' is going to be a lot less than what you'd expect from the power you'd get out of it.

Makes you wonder why we've never seen the las equivilaent of an extended mag. Some kind of giant-sickle-clip dodad. Gaunt uses a drum on his bolt pistol!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Makes you wonder why we've never seen the las equivilaent of an extended mag. Some kind of giant-sickle-clip dodad. Gaunt uses a drum on his bolt pistol!

I think there's a photo of a sickle clipped lasgun floating around out there. I mean we know they exist! My guess would be that since the clip is a battery, there isn't as much incentive to make big sickle mags for them.

Eumerin wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:As for ammo, powerpacks have a limited number of shots. In Dead Men Walking, 25 shots per pack seems to be the magic number. As I recall from another book, the packs can be recharged in the field by exposing them to heat, such as a campfire, or by leaving them out in the sun, but the effectiveness of these methods seems to be pretty limited, and to get a full charge in a decent amount of time requires a recharging station.

Leaving a powerpack out in the sun is considered to the "standard" method of recharging a power pack in the field. Over the course of several hours, it will completely replenish the energy used to fire the weapon. Throwing a pack into a campfire will also work if needed and will do so much faster than sunlight will, but it permanently reduces the maximum charge that a pack is capable of holding. So that should only be done in an emergency or if no other method is available.

Recharging stations are no doubt handy to use when available, but the energy needs to come from somewhere. And someone needs to plug and unplug all of the packs from the charging station (not a problem when there are only one or two packs; it's a different matter when you need to recharge 500 power packs...). Spreading them out in the open to collect sunlight is fairly simple and the energy is guaranteed to be 100% free.

I've heard the efficiency is reduced at night. Is there any truth to that?

If lasguns had 250 shots per magazine, the tactics of the guard would be wildly different.


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chaos0xomega wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Okay guys this is just my opinion,but Imperial Guard kind of strike me as the United States Army Rangers of the imperium wherein pdf are like the standard army, reasoning behind this logic is the comparitive sizes of those forces, iirc most Imperial guard units are like 60000 men, with support staff, so thats, Wherein PDF forces tend to number in the hundreds of thousands, am I the only one who thinks this or do you guys think the same?

I'd say guardsmen are actually the marines of the imperium. Pdf's would be regular army, for sure.

You have to remember that the Guard is a deployable force, not a stationary or 'presence' force. They come to get the job done, get out, and get to another battle. PDFs just protect their local systems, so yeah, army, or maybe even coasties

I think that is a fairly decent analogy. Thats actually the vibe I got about the DKoK (hard to believe) while reading parts of Dead Men Walking. Although let us be clear that the USMC is not necessarily a superior combat force to the US Army. There is the perspective of this in the general public. Actual combat data shows there to be no real difference between an average platoon of marines and soldiers in terms of battlefield results.

Id really like to know where you recieved/read that information.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:As for ammo, powerpacks have a limited number of shots. In Dead Men Walking, 25 shots per pack seems to be the magic number. As I recall from another book, the packs can be recharged in the field by exposing them to heat, such as a campfire, or by leaving them out in the sun, but the effectiveness of these methods seems to be pretty limited, and to get a full charge in a decent amount of time requires a recharging station.

Leaving a powerpack out in the sun is considered to the "standard" method of recharging a power pack in the field. Over the course of several hours, it will completely replenish the energy used to fire the weapon. Throwing a pack into a campfire will also work if needed and will do so much faster than sunlight will, but it permanently reduces the maximum charge that a pack is capable of holding. So that should only be done in an emergency or if no other method is available.

Recharging stations are no doubt handy to use when available, but the energy needs to come from somewhere. And someone needs to plug and unplug all of the packs from the charging station (not a problem when there are only one or two packs; it's a different matter when you need to recharge 500 power packs...). Spreading them out in the open to collect sunlight is fairly simple and the energy is guaranteed to be 100% free.

I've heard the efficiency is reduced at night. Is there any truth to that?

The Guard wouldn't be able to take The Pacific Northwest. An Army relying on sunlight has no chance here!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Makes you wonder why we've never seen the las equivilaent of an extended mag. Some kind of giant-sickle-clip dodad. Gaunt uses a drum on his bolt pistol!

Are you talking about a banana clip? They're shaped the way that they are due to the shape of the bullets they carry. Because bullets are narrower at the front, you can squeeze a few more in if you curve the clip. A powerpack wouldn't have to worry about ammunition shapes, so adopting the specific banana clip shape wouldn't make much sense.

Though since bullets aren't an issue, you could make a clip any shape you wanted so long as the gun didn't get in the way.

Okay, first things first lets be a little more polite on here, we dont want the mods locking this thread because someone whines , and that aside I think DKoK in the second Ultramarines novels uses lasguns that are autos, though I may be wrong due to the 3 or 4 regiments that were on location during the battle. Also I think it is probably safe to say there is minimal quality control on lasgun magazines, so I wouldnt be surprised if occasionally there was a mag that held 300 rounds, but on the same token I wouldn't be surprised if some magazines were so shoddy they only held 10-15, this is without any fluff support, just thinking about the fact your average worker probably doesnt give a rats about his work/the charge he/she is putting into the magazine.


I don't quite agree with the comparison with the USMC due to the fact in a combat zone they tend to operate about just as well, wherein at least in Cains For The Emperor he says the PDF quality is shoddy at best(probably can be trusted due to the fact he has no real reason to lie about it)

Wardragoon wrote:wherein at least in Cains For The Emperor he says the PDF quality is shoddy at best(probably can be trusted due to the fact he has no real reason to lie about it)

Amberlee mentions repeatedly that Cain is somewhat biased when it comes to PDF troops. And the ones in 'Death or Glory' seem competent enough. Of course, one can also make the argument that any PDF members still alive by the time Cain finds them in that book are a cut above the rest.

On the other hand, he also runs into plenty of PDF members that clearly are barely trained slobs who probably haven't cleaned their weapon in months.


There's also the PDF unit in 'Duty Calls'. That unit comes across as having particularly incompetent missile teams...

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are you talking about? A Lasgun on max power is AP "-".

Hellguns/Hotshots are a whole other thing.

First Gaunt book. Normal settings just clanged against the armor, but the vitrian who switched his gun back to high power decapitated the marine.

That was after basically shoving it in the chaos marine's face.

EDIT: And remember the time where Gaunt recalls someone killing a chaos dreadnought with a single las-shot? Flukes happen.

Eumerin wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:wherein at least in Cains For The Emperor he says the PDF quality is shoddy at best(probably can be trusted due to the fact he has no real reason to lie about it)

Amberlee mentions repeatedly that Cain is somewhat biased when it comes to PDF troops. And the ones in 'Death or Glory' seem competent enough. Of course, one can also make the argument that any PDF members still alive by the time Cain finds them in that book are a cut above the rest.

The book where Cain crash lands on an Ork-contested planet:

INdeed they do. But at the same time, the PDF in the first book are generally incompetent, and probably closer to the norm.

The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

Nightwalker wrote:The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

Keep on perpetuation the unfluffy stereotype about the Imperial Guard. Or just read the thread.

Nightwalker wrote:The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

Uh, if by Fodder you mean the primary military force that fights and wins the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Imperium's wars without ever seeing a single Space Marine boot?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Eumerin wrote:Amberlee mentions repeatedly that Cain is somewhat biased when it comes to PDF troops. And the ones in 'Death or Glory' seem competent enough. Of course, one can also make the argument that any PDF members still alive by the time Cain finds them in that book are a cut above the rest.

The book where Cain crash lands on an Ork-contested planet:

Spoiler:

The PDF become a movement that basically turns the war in the IG's favour.

We're talking about the same group here, just as an FYI.

To the OP's question, I'd say it goes like this:

PDF - National Guard or Reserves (quality of PDF varies, as do NG and Reserve units)

IG - Regular Army and/or Marines

Veterans - Rangers, and Recon units

Storm Troopers - Delta Force, Seals, etc.

odmiller wrote:To the OP's question, I'd say it goes like this:

PDF - National Guard or Reserves (quality of PDF varies, as do NG and Reserve units)

IG - Regular Army and/or Marines

Veterans - Rangers, and Recon units

Storm Troopers - Delta Force, Seals, etc.

Huh, I can live with that,makes sense too as far as some of your regiments go

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

Or you're entirely missing the point that has been laid out before you.

It's 25-60 shots in a combat setting, where troopers ramp up the power being drained for each shot. A 'basic' charge shot would feasibly be stopped by flak armor. The 'combat' setting can deal significantly more damage, while not damaging the charge pack.

And quite frankly, it's not meant to be "comedic". It's meant to be propaganda.

I didn't know that AP- meant the shot could pierce some armor. Hot shots are stronger variants and they need a powersource in a back pack and better barrels.

The lasgun is cheap to make, the power cell is close to a clip(it actually runs out of charge which can be seen as ammo). I don't think combat settings would let you shoot more than 60 shots, maybe training settings would let you get more than 60.


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Wardragoon wrote:

odmiller wrote:To the OP's question, I'd say it goes like this:

PDF - National Guard or Reserves (quality of PDF varies, as do NG and Reserve units)

IG - Regular Army and/or Marines

Veterans - Rangers, and Recon units

Storm Troopers - Delta Force, Seals, etc.

Huh, I can live with that,makes sense too as far as some of your regiments go

Didn't I already say that on page 6?


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halonachos wrote:The IG is like a collection of various armies with their own specialties and specialists. I imagine it like current military units, US Army has Rangers and each country has an Army with their own Specialists. Now imagine that all of these countries are planets on the same side and add in the National Guard and its equivalents for the PDF.

Sorry, it was page 3.

halonachos wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

Or you're entirely missing the point that has been laid out before you.

It's 25-60 shots in a combat setting, where troopers ramp up the power being drained for each shot. A 'basic' charge shot would feasibly be stopped by flak armor. The 'combat' setting can deal significantly more damage, while not damaging the charge pack.

And quite frankly, it's not meant to be "comedic". It's meant to be propaganda.

I didn't know that AP- meant the shot could pierce some armor.

I swear, sometimes it's like herding cats here in the background forum.
Guard 'combat settings' are the most they can do to potentially damage foes that are far better armored than they are. If they were to amp up the power, you'd be looking at AP3 or 4, but being able to fire once every other round since they'd be burning through powerpacks like mad.

Hot shots are stronger variants and they need a powersource in a back pack and better barrels.

Hotshots are not stronger variants needing a power-source in a backpack and better barrels. Those are "hellguns" and Robin Cruddace alongside of whoever let him do it should be beaten with whippy sticks for bringing back the stupidity of the term "hotshot lasgun".
"Hotshot" is a description of an overcharged lasgun powerpack. It can be used with any kind of lasgun, it's just not generally recommended without reinforced barrels since it can damage the internals of the lasgun otherwise. "Hotshot" powerpacks are generally employed with long-lases because of the killpower associated being favored by snipers.

"Hellguns" use the same general principle of an "overcharged lasgun", but crank it up to 11 and give it a sweet motorcycle with flames on it. The idea is it's a reinforced weapon intended to use the most killpower possible for an assault-y styled unit (which failed on that front with the Stormtrooper rules, but irrelevant).

Nightwalker wrote:The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

The Imperial Guard wins more battles in a year than the Space Marines win in a century, easily.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The book where Cain crash lands on an Ork-contested planet:

Spoiler:

The PDF become a movement that basically turns the war in the IG's favour.

Cain himself is what turns the war, by killing the warboss. The PDF's main accomplishment is in surviving, not damaging the overall fighting capacity of the ork waaugh.

odmiller wrote:To the OP's question, I'd say it goes like this:

PDF - National Guard or Reserves (quality of PDF varies, as do NG and Reserve units)

IG - Regular Army and/or Marines

Veterans - Rangers, and Recon units

Storm Troopers - Delta Force, Seals, etc.

Recall that PDF troops have an amount of training equivalent to the modern US army, Guardsmen have twice that, and Stormtroopers started undergoing Spec Ops intensity training when they were six or seven at the latest, and have had more than a decade of training that only increased from there before being deployed. Veterans rank next to Stormtroopers in raw skill, if not in operational use.

This is of course to say nothing of worlds like Cadia, where every single Cadian goes through the equivalent of bootcamp a dozen times over before they're fifteen, or Krieg, where they're trained by being pitted against each other in actual warfare for years in an irradiated wasteland (and probably received Cadian-level training prior to that), with the survivors being considered worthy of being shipped off to the Guard.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Recall that PDF troops have an amount of training equivalent to the modern US army

I *strongly* doubt that. I'm confident that some are that well-trained, but I strongly doubt that most PDF on your typical mostly peaceful world are as well trained as the modern US military. The US military is one of trained militaries (if not the actual best) in the world today. Members are trained not only when they're newly recruited, but continuously during peacetime as well. The training regimen is good enough these days that many members have stated that the US military's training programs might be a little *too* good at simulating combat. Your average PDF trooper probably gets some basic training when he joins up, and then gets additional training at irregular intervals. As I mentioned in an earlier post, continuous training costs lots of money and it's one of the first places that a governor is likely to look for cost cutting measures on a planet that doesn't see much conflict. Why put your PDF troopers through constant training if you're confident that they'll muster out without ever seeing combat?

halonachos wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

Or you're entirely missing the point that has been laid out before you.

It's 25-60 shots in a combat setting, where troopers ramp up the power being drained for each shot. A 'basic' charge shot would feasibly be stopped by flak armor. The 'combat' setting can deal significantly more damage, while not damaging the charge pack.

And quite frankly, it's not meant to be "comedic". It's meant to be propaganda.

I didn't know that AP- meant the shot could pierce some armor. Hot shots are stronger variants and they need a powersource in a back pack and better barrels.

The lasgun is cheap to make, the power cell is close to a clip(it actually runs out of charge which can be seen as ammo). I don't think combat settings would let you shoot more than 60 shots, maybe training settings would let you get more than 60.


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Wardragoon wrote:

odmiller wrote:To the OP's question, I'd say it goes like this:


PDF - National Guard or Reserves (quality of PDF varies, as do NG and Reserve units)

IG - Regular Army and/or Marines

Veterans - Rangers, and Recon units

Storm Troopers - Delta Force, Seals, etc.

Huh, I can live with that,makes sense too as far as some of your regiments go

Didn't I already say that on page 6?


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halonachos wrote:The IG is like a collection of various armies with their own specialties and specialists. I imagine it like current military units, US Army has Rangers and each country has an Army with their own Specialists. Now imagine that all of these countries are planets on the same side and add in the National Guard and its equivalents for the PDF.

Sorry, it was page 3.

Well, after going back 4 pages of how many shots in a magazine, I gave up looking for anyone answering the OP question. Sorry about that. Your explanation is fine.