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Alright so I am bored and work in Mexico and have started painting to keep myself busy. I have played a necron and space marine army and want to try something new. Currently there is not a soul who plays eldar in my friendly Gaming store home in Canada.

My question basically is whether eldar are viable for competative play and that is why no one uses them where i am from, or just no one understands the true power. I want to start an eldar army cause i think they are cool but dont want to spend the money on something that will lose everytime. Any advice on a decent starting eldar army would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Brian

Eldar isn't as hard as DE and a bit more elite. Expensive transports and units mean you put down less stuff, but the army is definitely good. I've yet to see it played well, though.
Eldar is a bit tricky to build as well. You might want to just look up some tacticas, the competitive builds are really boring.

Well against new top tier armies an all comers Eldar army has some potential.

Assuming 2 players of equal skill here is how I see Eldar going up against a 5th ed codex.

Eldar should have the upper hand against GK which is becoming a popular army.

It should be an even fight with DE, space wolves, Tyranids, or codex SM.

Eldar have a severe disadvantage going up against a list with too much target saturation such as DoA BA, Mech IG, or tankspam BA.

They aren't the worst army in the game but I would not call them good. Most of the units are overcosted. They also take lots of skill to pull off wins. They rarely win in a massive stomping. Usually, Eldar wins involve squeaking out KP's or last second contestations of objectives.

Ive been playing eldar recently, and the army is all about making a very synergistic list - that will determine whether you will have a hard or easy time with eldar.

And then, because its not a beatstick army, you will actually play the game using more brains and less of mathhammer and papercraft.

So the answer is, yes. Eldar is a very competitive army, so long as you exploit the almost broken rules of their units such as:

-Holo fields - easily making eldar have the toughest tanks to kill in the game (falcons). and dont forget
-Fortune and SMF rule. Their tanks being fast skimmers will always guarantee significant increase in survivability and with fortune, its like having a 2+ save. That and coupled with how hard it is to deal with av12.
-Eldrad. I cannot fathom a proper eldar army without eldrad. The ability to project a 24" psychic bubble support thrice per turn is a dangerous force multiplier.
-Dire Avengers. These are the most flexible if not, the best troops in the game, being able to tripletap+ guide+doom any infantry to oblivion (killing 6 MEQs) , and can survive assault fairly thanks to their 5+ invul save (dont forget about fortune).
-Fire Dragons: These are the cheapest melta units in the game. With these guys, forget about bright lance and EMLs and any expensive long range eldar weaponry. After all you just need to destroy 2-3 tanks that would pose the most problem for your army.

Playing as eldar, you have to forget about standard engagement doctrines you are accustomed to with other armies. It is all about knocking your opponent off balance, and massed firepower does not do it for eldar, a common list building principle in 40k.

So it is more of a tactical army, any specific units i should try to avoid?

So it is more of a tactical army, any specific units i should try to avoid?

Loads.

HQ- Any Phoenix Lord is a huge mistake. You will likely want at least 1 Seer, probably Eldrad at higher points levels. So, basically how the other choice fits (if it does) is important.

Elites- Harlies are crap. I personally don't think that Banshees and Scorpions are all that great. As counter assault...maybe. As an active assault unit, no. There is no way to deliver them. Wraith Guard are pretty bad as well. Basically Fire Dragon spam in this slot.

Troops-I don't think any are actually good. DA are overcosted. Guardians are pretty meh. Bikes are expensive as well. Min squads in Serpents is the way to go.

Fast Attack- I don't know that anything is really "good" here. Vypers can be used. Spiders...maybe. Shining Spears are trash. This stuff suffers all suffers from being highly overcosted (a common theme).

Heavy Support-People swear by Prisms and Falcons. In theory they are better than in practice. Falcons can be tough to kill if used right. Prisms really lack punch. War Walkers are good. The rest is kinda bad. Reapers aren't that good because they are entirely geared to anti MEQ out of transports and outside cover. Support Weapons aren't great either either.

Not to be too cynical but the codex is really limited. Successful Eldar are down to a mono-build.

CIAbugguy wrote:So it is more of a tactical army, any specific units i should try to avoid?

I would avoid Swooping Hawks like the plague. I thought what most people said about them was an exaggeration, but then I actually tried using them and found that they were absolute crap. In fact, the fast attack is really lackluster.

CIAbugguy wrote:So it is more of a tactical army, any specific units i should try to avoid?

Everything that isn't:
Farseer
Autarch
Dire Avengers
Fire Dragons
War Walkers
Fire Prisms
Falcons
Wave Serpent

If you're feeling like you're one of the best 40k players around, you may also use
Avatar
Guardians
Jetbikes

Short answer, yes.

Mechdar (everything in waveserpents, Fire prisms, Falcons, nothing on foot, maybe some bikes) is the build considered "best". At it's core is 2-3 FD squads in Serpents and Falcons and/or Fire Prisms.

Footdar is seen as less competative, requiring considerably more finesse. Use Eldrad/Avatar as HQ, and guardians with HW's within the Avatar's Fearless bubble. Classic Wraithwall spams Wraithguard and Wraithlord along with some Harlequins-layering to try and get everything a cover save. Less conventional builds use more esoteric units, but in general retain the Eldrad/Avatar core, and at least 2 Wraithlords (along with a Squad of 3 Warwalkers, generally with SL's..).

Bikedar-lots of bikes (Duh!!) with maybe some Vipers and the odd HS Skimmer (like a scoring Falcon)-isn't seen much, is tricky to win with, but is very fun (well, I hope, as I'm slowly accruing enough bikes to run it..)..

Honestly, you can use the majority of the Eldar units to good success, if you combine them properly.

Depending on what army you are facing at any given time of course you will need to vary your tactics.

I have used nearly everything in the codex, even the "worst" units. They do have their place, at different point levels.

In my armies you can regularly find

Eldrad
Farseer
Avatar
Fuegan
Baharroth
Autarch
Guardians
Dire Avengers
Pathfinders
Fire Dragons
Harlequins
Swooping Hawks
Warp Spiders
Wraithlords
War Walkers
Dark Reapers
Falcons
Wave Serpents

I have yet to use the rest, mainly because of lack of models, or not having them built yet.

Find your style, and go with it. It can be challenging, but that makes the wins that much sweeter.

All in all, they are fun to play, just to see what mayhem you can actually pull of, with one of "worst" units/armies/codexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For basic starter stuff to get your army started.

Eldrad
Farseer
Wraithlord
Dire Avengers
War Walkers
Rangers/Pathfinders
Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent or Falcon

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:Honestly, you can use the majority of the Eldar units to good success, if you combine them properly.

Depending on what army you are facing at any given time of course you will need to vary your tactics.....

This is the key, really. Eldar are not a "point and click" force. You need to use various units in synergy to achieve your goal. I feel that mechdar is seen as the best list is because it removes a lot of the synergy requirements...

Son_Of _Deddog wrote:

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:Honestly, you can use the majority of the Eldar units to good success, if you combine them properly.

Depending on what army you are facing at any given time of course you will need to vary your tactics.....

This is the key, really. Eldar are not a "point and click" force. You need to use various units in synergy to achieve your goal. I feel that mechdar is seen as the best list is because it removes a lot of the synergy requirements...

Amen.

Son_Of _Deddog wrote:This is the key, really. Eldar are not a "point and click" force. You need to use various units in synergy to achieve your goal. I feel that mechdar is seen as the best list is because it removes a lot of the synergy requirements...

Can someone give me some actual examples of this? I keep hearing this statement, but it's always quite vague and I never really understand what people mean by it.

A Farseer using doom or guide... I wouldn't call that synergy to be honest. I'd just call it using a support unit. Is it really that different from an Ork using a Big Meks kustom force field or a Tau using Pathfinders?

Code wrote:

Son_Of _Deddog wrote:This is the key, really. Eldar are not a "point and click" force. You need to use various units in synergy to achieve your goal. I feel that mechdar is seen as the best list is because it removes a lot of the synergy requirements...

Can someone give me some actual examples of this? I keep hearing this statement, but it's always quite vague and I never really understand what people mean by it.

A Farseer using doom or guide... I wouldn't call that synergy to be honest. I'd just call it using a support unit. Is it really that different from an Ork using a Big Meks kustom force field or a Tau using Pathfinders?

Samples of synergy:

-Vehicle blocking your firedragons to keep them from getting assaulted.
-Putting an Avatar in the rear so that any unit that will be running away is caught by the fearless aura making them fight again.
-Using Harlequins as a mobile cover save to your footdar army
-Eldrad redeploying your most vulnerable assets to a advantageous position

IMO the point with eldar is that you can't view the units separately, much less than other armies. Many people judge the worth of a unit just by counting how many enemy points it killed. This is a flawed measure, however. An example to illustrate this: Unit A is mobile and lightly armed, Unit B is heavy infantery. Unit B was able to deliver a round of heavy fire, but would be obliterated before shooting again. Now Unit A assaults the enemy and keeps Unit B alive which is thus enabled to kill much more than Unit A would ever have been able to. Now, do you add the points solely on Unit B's kill count to judge their value?

In my Eldar army I have had several of such situations. E.g. Swooping Hawks attacking an IG artillery tank deep in the enemy flank. Even though the haywire grenade only scored glancing hits the tank was stunned and the enemy had to move a vendetta to threaten the hawks, not shooting at my Dark Reapers, giving them another round. In the same game they also delivered two large blast templates when deep striking, which in turn allowed my Guardians to deal with the damaged veteran squad much easier than if it had been at full strength. Considered alone the SH were no game winner since they didn't destroy a single unit. But without them I'd have lost the game for sure.

For me, I do much better when I remember (and act accordingly) that each unit has strengths and weaknesses and have to be used together to maximize their worth. Unlike marines, like my blood angels, they don't have the numbers or the inherent survivability to be sent alone on a job and be expected to fulfill it.

Darkness's list is pretty good, but I'd add (in green) and remove (in red):

DarknessEternal wrote:

CIAbugguy wrote:So it is more of a tactical army, any specific units i should try to avoid?

Everything that isn't:
Eldrad Ulthran
Farseer
Autarch
Prince Yriel
Dire Avengers
Storm Guardians
Fire Dragons
War Walkers
Fire Prisms
Falcons
Wave Serpent

Eldrad is god, for his points he's the best HQ in the game, period.
Storm Guardians with 2 Flamers and a Destructor Warlock in a Wave Serpent are great at bringing down hordes. More costly than a min DA squad, but they make things a litte more interesting.
The only reason I'm against Falcons is that they loose most of their fire power if you move, Fire prisms can still move and fire their big gun. If you want to use them for what they are good at, you have no choice other than to sit still all game.

I run S6 spam and do very well. The only thing that I can't quite get a handle on is horde orks, but I've only played them in 2 games. Game 1 was a learning experience, game 2 dice and senario really hurt but I did much better.

Basically I run everything as cheap as I can.

Farseer with 1 power, typically guide and runes of warding.
As many 5 mand DA squads in SL WS as possible.
2 Fire dragsons in SL WS
1 War Walker unit with SL
a couple of vypers with SL
2 night spinners

S cannon up grades or farseer powers if I can afford them

Everything that isn't:
Farseer
Autarch
Dire Avengers
Fire Dragons
War Walkers
Fire Prisms
Falcons
Wave Serpent

If you're feeling like you're one of the best 40k players around, you may also use
Avatar
Guardians
Jetbikes

This is a pretty good list of stuff that's usable in a competitive setting in that codex. I think the key here comes down to people's definition of competitive. Taking Eldar to a tourney is usually not going to yield great results. The reasons are:

a. many of their units are over priced compared to the newer codices
b. it's difficult to win big and get massacres with Eldar

Can they stand up to optimized 5th edition codex lists run by good players? Maybe. It would take a an amazing list, player, and things going well for them. The ability of so many newer armies to spam ranged strength 8 weaponry really hurts them. Horrid troop choices really hurt them. Having to use psychic powers before movement really hurts them. The list goes on.

Gorechild wrote:Darkness's list is pretty good, but I'd add (in green) and remove (in red):

DarknessEternal wrote:
Eldrad Ulthran
Farseer
Autarch
Prince Yriel

Eldrad is god, for his points he's the best HQ in the game, period.

To clarify I include Eldrad in Farseers and Yriel in Autarchs.

And I guess I should have said Falcon instead of Falcons. Not really useful to have more than one as they displace Fire Prisms, but Falcons are the only thing worth a holo-field so make a good ride for your one HQ. Movement isn't an issue. 6" is more than enough most turns assuming you have half a dozen other tanks swarming around. If you need to move more than that, the Pulse Laser is an adequate single weapon.

Ok. WTH is a nightspinner? I cant see one in the Codex =/

Yuber wrote:Ok. WTH is a nightspinner? I cant see one in the Codex =/

July White Dwarf last year I believe it was. Take a Fire Prism, replace the weapon with Shadow Weavers, add a special rule that makes units hit suffer from difficult and dangerous terrain.

Dark reapers sound pretty cool, have a decent weapons and decent range, could they not be a good unit to use in combination with mechdar for fire support?

Mahtamori wrote:

Yuber wrote:Ok. WTH is a nightspinner? I cant see one in the Codex =/

July White Dwarf last year I believe it was. Take a Fire Prism, replace the weapon with Shadow Weavers, add a special rule that makes units hit suffer from difficult and dangerous terrain.

Correct! Rules are online somewhere too, just search GW for the PDF.

Many folks argue against their use and they are not as devistating when they hit as a twin linked blast from a Fire Prism, nor can they pop vehicles as much but:

They are twin linked and the effects they cause throw lots of people for a loop and nickle and dime them to death.

Example: Center on one unit, scatters to hit one model in one unit and some in another, get a casualty or two, then both units are in difficult and dangerous terran until the next time they move, meaning if you cause them to move they check, and they have to take a pinning check. No line of sight requires and since there is just one gun, zoom around 12 and fire at will. I love them!

Don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but I the Eldar Jetbike Seer Council of Doom is still one of the premiere assault units in the game. The problem for most players is that GW doesn't make models for this awesome awesome unit and the conversion work can be a pain.

Anyway, most of the ones I've seen involve around 6+ (points depending) warlocks on jetbikes with 1+ embolden, 1+ enhance, and the rest with destructor. They are led by a farseer on a bike with fortune and whatever powers you like.

I don't play Eldar myself, but I ran into a supremely nasty jet-council/mechanized army at the 'Ard Boyz semis last year. Another Jet Council army won our local round-robin league earlier this year. It is a very good unit.

CIAbugguy wrote:Dark reapers sound pretty cool, have a decent weapons and decent range, could they not be a good unit to use in combination with mechdar for fire support?

They look good on paper, but are disappointing in practice.

Str 5 is essentially useless against vehicles, so your only real target is 3+ save infantry (don't even bother against terminators). You hit them on 3s, wound on 3s, and they usually get a cover save, so even a maximum size unit of 5 reapers is looking at about 2 dead marines per volley, or 1-2 wounds on a monstrous creature. Underwhelming for a unit that costs more than most of your tanks.

A couple of heavy bolters, multi-lasers, assault cannons or krak missiles into that reaper unit and you'll nearly always lose enough models to cause a break test, definitely lose enough to lose most of your firepower effectiveness.

If anything assaults them, they'll be wiped out in 1-2 phases without dealing any significant damage in return.

You can take the unit as an expensive bodyguard for a tooled-up exarch, which gives you a couple of krak missile shots. But the minimum cost of the unit is still more than taking a 3-shot falcon or comparable vehicle-based firepower.

The biggest drawback, though, is that they can't move and shoot. So in Dawn of War or reserves-based deployments, you're not shooting before turn 3 at the earliest, and your opponent can use terrain or other LoS blocking to make the reapers ineffective. That's also why they don't go well with a mech army--the rest of the army leaves them behind.

You're usually better off with more tanks.

eldar are tough to play as. If i make a mistake with my orks i can sometimes just muscle through, same with space marines. But eldar from what I've seen and played are finesse at its finest. as said you need to screen certain units,. have certain units keeping thie distance while others cover thier reteat.. but when played correctly they are awsome to see, I fully admit watching an eldar battle played well I definatly had the thought that I probably at this stage (have only been playing a little over 6 months) would not have been able to move like that and think to retreat and regroup around forcing the opponent to decide where to concentrate fire and assaults. Still I plan on also trying them one day when I get better (or thier codex gets better)

I think I am going to have to give them a try, the jet bike seer council sounds cool, and war walkers look neat so ill start with painting those and work from there. It will give me a challenge in battle and be a little different to play than my iron hands or my Necrons.

Thanks for the tips, harlequins sound like they would be decent in close combat, is the fact they cant get transports why they are normally frowned apon

SO the nightspinner: Can it be used? It does not appear in the codex.