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I've made some pretty significant changes to my 'Ard Boyz list, so I'm making a new thread to avoid confusion in the other one.

I know the accepted net thinking is to run 3x MoT Princes with bolt and gaze to pop transports, but I find that it's honestly best to let the Bloodcrushers and Fiends open their own cans, with Fateweaver and the Tzherald supporting the anti-light armor effort. The list that won the Grim Open ran 3x Nurgle princes @ 240 points each, so while my MoK and MoN princes are more expensive than the wingless dakkaprince, they aren't as expensive as a very successful list has run them. So... that's that.

The Masque is in, instead of a second Tzherald to extend the "range" of my Bloodcrushers by pulling their targets towards them. Her Daemonettes provide ablative wounds against shooting, and the squad as a whole is fairly nasty in CC.

I fully realize that the Soul Grinder is the exact same cost as the Tzeentch prince, but if you stack up their weapons, the Harvester + the template weapon + the Battlecannon? All firing on the turn it drops in. The MoT prince just doesn't stack up, IMO. One str8 shot? Plthhhhh

Let me know what you think Dakka. Thanks!

2500 Daemons

==HQ==
Fateweaver 333

The Masque 100

Herald of Tzeentch 100
Bolt, Master of Sorcery, Chariot

==Elites==
7x Bloodcrushers 320
Icon, Fury, Instrument

7x Bloodcrushers 320
Icon, Fury, Instrument

6x Fiends of Slaanesh 190
Unholy Might

==Fast Attack==
6x Screamers of Tzeench 96

==Troops==
4x Pink Horrors 100
Bolt
1x The Changeling

9x Daemonettes 126

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

==Heavy Support==
Daemon Prince 215
MoK, Wings, Might, Iron Hide, Blessings

Daemon Prince 215
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Cloud, Noxious Touch

Soul Grinder 160
Phlegm

For someone just starting deamons, this provides a helpful insight as to what other people use. Sounds good!

pvmartin514 wrote:For someone just starting deamons, this provides a helpful insight as to what other people use. Sounds good!

Thanks for the input (and the free bump!)

Not much input, I know. Haha
I'm used to my chaos sm and de. But it sounds good in theory. I might actually borrow this list to playtest myself, if that's cool

As I'm new to the daemons, I'm not 100% familiar with how they actually play, but I'm a sucker for nurgle... haha.

*another bump*

I think you need to either run 3x SG or drop the solo act. A single AV 13 vehicle at 2500 points is never going to be worth it. At least give it a chance to make its points back and give it Tongue, otherwise you are going to battle cannon a 45 points in models and then get smashed apart.

Also, you cannot fire the template and the blast, they are the same weapon with different profiles (like a GK psycannon).

For the record, I am a huge proponent of SG's, AV 13 is much better than most people realize, especially since most AT weapons are geared to take down AV 11 or 12 for transports. There is a reason an Ironclad Dread is such a pain. That said, DP's are the way to go in a Fateweaver list.

I do not like the breath on the Nurgle prince, that feels like it is just going to keep it out of CC range where it wants to be during the enemy shooting phase.

I use the Masque regularly in my slaanesh army, she dramatically increases the speed of your army and can pull units out of cover for you too.

Otherwise I would drop 1x PB squad and add another unit of Horrors with Bolt (use the points from Breath) and then increase the size of the 'nettes to 12-14 which is the sweet spot for them (I run 36 'nettes in my 2k point list and I have experimented with unit sizes from 6 to 18).

Finally, I would consider losing a PB unit for a small unit of Bloodletters. Since you are camping objectives with them, most of the time you are taking high strength firepower from a distance which makes them almost identical. If the enemy closes to use some small arms, the 'letters are so killy they can just hop out, wipe the squad and get back into cover. If the 'letters cannot do this, then the PB's are dead anyway.

calypso2ts wrote:I think you need to either run 3x SG or drop the solo act. A single AV 13 vehicle at 2500 points is never going to be worth it. At least give it a chance to make its points back and give it Tongue, otherwise you are going to battle cannon a 45 points in models and then get smashed apart.

Also, you cannot fire the template and the blast, they are the same weapon with different profiles (like a GK psycannon).

For the record, I am a huge proponent of SG's, AV 13 is much better than most people realize, especially since most AT weapons are geared to take down AV 11 or 12 for transports. There is a reason an Ironclad Dread is such a pain. That said, DP's are the way to go in a Fateweaver list.

I definitely understand the standard "It's the only AV on the field" and the "It doesn't benefit from Fateweaver" arguments, but here is my thinking on that:
1. Anti-Tank weapons are getting shot at Fateweaver/My Princes anyway to negate their high toughness & armor saves. If the Soul Grinder draws shooting off of Fateweaver, the Blood Crushers, or the Daemon Princes and survives (or even if he doesn't) he's done a decent job as a fire magnet. If he blows some stuff up with his Battle Cannon, he's done a better job.
2. 1 str 10 shot @ BS3 is not worth 25p to me. Especially if it prevents me from firing the battle cannon, and weapon destroyed results would remove 50 points of upgrades in one shot.
3. I find the Soul Grinder to be way more versitile than it's Daemon Prince cousin (Tz prince w/ Bolt & Gaze), and as a walker /w FA13, most infantry units without meltabombs are going to have no way to hurt it. Pfist SM Sergeant? I like my chances against that too.
4. Most Anti-Armor is geared to take down Razorback spam and Chimera. I think AV13 is going to be a tough enough nut to crack, to force them to either dedicate some shooting to it (which keeps Fateweaver alive) or deal with a Leman Russ with arms.

calypso2ts wrote:
I do not like the breath on the Nurgle prince, that feels like it is just going to keep it out of CC range where it wants to be during the enemy shooting phase.

BoC on Nurgle prince was a typo and isn't paid for. Thanks for noticing! I'll edit it out.

calypso2ts wrote:
I use the Masque regularly in my slaanesh army, she dramatically increases the speed of your army and can pull units out of cover for you too.

Yup!

calypso2ts wrote:
Otherwise I would drop 1x PB squad and add another unit of Horrors with Bolt (use the points from Breath) and then increase the size of the 'nettes to 12-14 which is the sweet spot for them (I run 36 'nettes in my 2k point list and I have experimented with unit sizes from 6 to 18).

No breath points to spend >.<.... plus 3 objectivebearers squads is about as low as I want to go @ 2500... if someone gets smart and just starts blowing them away in an objectives game.. I'm in trouble.

calypso2ts wrote:
Finally, I would consider losing a PB unit for a small unit of Bloodletters. Since you are camping objectives with them, most of the time you are taking high strength firepower from a distance which makes them almost identical. If the enemy closes to use some small arms, the 'letters are so killy they can just hop out, wipe the squad and get back into cover. If the 'letters cannot do this, then the PB's are dead anyway.

I've playtested this... I'm iffy. I'll take a second look at it.

Your ideas are laughable and your cheese stinks sir, but your deamon list is scary

So in response to your SG points...

1 - You will lose the SG turn 1, it is the softest target there and one random result can wreck it. Immobilizing it or weapon destroyed in this list is just as good.

2 - I never put both Phlegm and Tongue on, just one or another. Tongue against a Rhino hits/pens on 4+/2+, Bolt hits/pens on 2+/4+. They are functionally equivalent to one another and Tongue is even better against anything higher than av 11

3 - I agree, that is why I run 3 at 2500, 1 is just melta bait or lascannon bait.

4 - Agreed as well in general, I just never got much utilityout of the Battle Cannon. With so many cover saves running all over, they are less effective than they seem.

dinnermeat wrote:Your ideas are laughable and your cheese stinks sir, but your deamon list is scary

Oh my guard... look at that bloodthirster. It is -so- huge. It looks like one of those leman russ drivers butts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

calypso2ts wrote:So in response to your SG points...

1 - You will lose the SG turn 1, it is the softest target there and one random result can wreck it. Immobilizing it or weapon destroyed in this list is just as good.

Hard to argue. Randomness being what it is, there is always the potential for mayhem. Fateweaver takes the same save vs a laspistol and a demolisher cannon, and as a result can run away after taking one wound from Laspistol... that's pretty fragile too..

calypso2ts wrote:
2 - I never put both Phlegm and Tongue on, just one or another. Tongue against a Rhino hits/pens on 4+/2+, Bolt hits/pens on 2+/4+. They are functionally equivalent to one another and Tongue is even better against anything higher than av 11

That... isn't -exactly- functionally equivalent, and I'm sure you know why. Additionally, @ front armor 12, a chimera is going to be a much tougher nut to crack with BoT.

Yo! Whats up cotton! Got some bad news for ya bro... The Masque is not an IC, so unfortunately you are not going to be able to toss her in with those daemonettes.

As expected I am going to have to say drop the SG. Have you play tested BT?


Times to use SG;

A: You have three of them
B: You have a fluffy mono khorne army
C: The game is at 1250 or less

I would say:

Drop masque and herald for blood thirster

drop sg for another tzeentch prince

dump screamers and small horrorsquad to get 10 seekers

get changeling in big squad.

Cottonjaw wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:
2 - I never put both Phlegm and Tongue on, just one or another. Tongue against a Rhino hits/pens on 4+/2+, Bolt hits/pens on 2+/4+. They are functionally equivalent to one another and Tongue is even better against anything higher than av 11

That... isn't -exactly- functionally equivalent, and I'm sure you know why. Additionally, @ front armor 12, a chimera is going to be a much tougher nut to crack with BoT.

Cottonjaw wrote:I've made some pretty significant changes to my 'Ard Boyz list, so I'm making a new thread to avoid confusion in the other one.

I know the accepted net thinking is to run 3x MoT Princes with bolt and gaze to pop transports, but I find that it's honestly best to let the Bloodcrushers and Fiends open their own cans, with Fateweaver and the Tzherald supporting the anti-light armor effort. The list that won the Grim Open ran 3x Nurgle princes @ 240 points each, so while my MoK and MoN princes are more expensive than the wingless dakkaprince, they aren't as expensive as a very successful list has run them. So... that's that.

The Masque is in, instead of a second Tzherald to extend the "range" of my Bloodcrushers by pulling their targets towards them. Her Daemonettes provide ablative wounds against shooting, and the squad as a whole is fairly nasty in CC.

I fully realize that the Soul Grinder is the exact same cost as the Tzeentch prince, but if you stack up their weapons, the Harvester + the template weapon + the Battlecannon? All firing on the turn it drops in. The MoT prince just doesn't stack up, IMO. One str8 shot? Plthhhhh

Let me know what you think Dakka. Thanks!

2500 Daemons

==HQ==
Fateweaver 333

The Masque 100

Herald of Tzeentch 100
Bolt, Master of Sorcery, Chariot

==Elites==
7x Bloodcrushers 320
Icon, Fury, Instrument

7x Bloodcrushers 320
Icon, Fury, Instrument

6x Fiends of Slaanesh 190
Unholy Might

==Fast Attack==
6x Screamers of Tzeench 96

==Troops==
4x Pink Horrors 100
Bolt
1x The Changeling

9x Daemonettes 126

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

==Heavy Support==
Daemon Prince 215
MoK, Wings, Might, Iron Hide, Blessings

Daemon Prince 215
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Cloud, Noxious Touch

Soul Grinder 160
Phlegm

I dunno what you have for available models, but here goes:

1) Masque requires a list pretty much built around her... she can't join units (not an IC), so she gets eaten pretty easily by andy amount of firepower. Cut her.
2) Crushers are great and all, but fiends are better. Cut 1 unit for another unit of fiends and bump the 7 man unit to 8. Use the crushers to shield your fiends.
3) Screamers rock, but you need a lot more than 1 unit of them to be effective typically
4) guessing the 9 daemonettes were for the masque... sadly, like I said, she can't join em. So cut em.
5) make room for more horrors! I like 3 squads of 5 with 3 squads of 5 PB's
6) Yours using ONE grinder? Hes just asking for a melta to the face! Cut em for 1 more Daemon Prince
7) DP's of Khorne are too fragile... either do MoN if your going CC or MoT w/ wings and bolt if your going AT/Shooting.

Hope this helps!

Zid wrote:
I dunno what you have for available models, but here goes:

1) Masque requires a list pretty much built around her... she can't join units (not an IC), so she gets eaten pretty easily by andy amount of firepower. Cut her.
2) Crushers are great and all, but fiends are better. Cut 1 unit for another unit of fiends and bump the 7 man unit to 8. Use the crushers to shield your fiends.
3) Screamers rock, but you need a lot more than 1 unit of them to be effective typically
4) guessing the 9 daemonettes were for the masque... sadly, like I said, she can't join em. So cut em.
5) make room for more horrors! I like 3 squads of 5 with 3 squads of 5 PB's
6) Yours using ONE grinder? Hes just asking for a melta to the face! Cut em for 1 more Daemon Prince
7) DP's of Khorne are too fragile... either do MoN if your going CC or MoT w/ wings and bolt if your going AT/Shooting.

Hope this helps!

1. Totally misread The Masque and thought she could join a squad of Daemonettes for some ablative wounds. If she hugs fateweaver and I use her for her lash... is she still viable? Her ability to extend the range of my Crushers has been invaluble. Do I just go Bloodthirster? Or a second Tzherald?

2. Fiends lack of Armor save totally ruins them for me. There is so much dakka in my meta, that little 5+ invo isn't saving them when they get caught out in the open after an assault. I think I need the Crushers armor save to be competetive. I've included some fiends for speed, but I definitely need the toughness.

3. I included the Screamers for an answer to Land Raiders. How many do I expect to see? Not many. I don't want to dedicate -too- much to the possibility of one tank.

4. Yep. I can replace them with Horrors easily.

5. Yep.

6. I can field 2 SG + 1 MoN prince... or 2 MoN + 1 MoT or MoK. I suppose I could build a third Nurgle prince before 'Ard Boyz... but the MoT /w BoT and Gaze combo just has not been doing it for me. Without wings, their CC component is all but useless. All they can do is slog up the board, and pew pew at targets of opportunity. I think the 6" Fateweaver bubble is a moot point regarding Daemon Prince vs. Soul Grinder, because with 2 squads of Crushers already hugging him, if the Daemon Princes stay too close, all my forces will be in one little area, and I won't have coverage across the board like I need to win objective games etc.

7. See #6


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So. Taking some advice I would have a list that looks something like this. Additionally, with a Bloodthirster in the list I'm not 100% certain I need Screamers. If so, I could drop them for another 95p squad of Pink Horrors. I own plenty of Daemons, so almost any suggestion is valid. As it stands, the list has 11 free points. Unholy Might on the Fiends would be my first choice, but if you have a more valid suggestion, please lmk. Thanks!

Chaos Daemons 2500 (2489)
-HQ-
Fateweaver 333

Bloodthirster 255
Blessings of the Blood God

-Elites-
6x Bloodcrushers 280
Full Command

6x Bloodcrushers 280
Full Command

6x Fiends of Slaanesh 180

-Fast Attack-
6x Screamers 96

-Troops-
4x Pink Horrors 100
Bolt
1x The Changeling

5x Pink Horrors 95
Bolt

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince 215
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Cloud, Noxious Touch

Daemon Prince 215
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Cloud, Noxious Touch

Daemon Prince 215
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Cloud, Noxious Touch

Cottonjaw wrote:

Zid wrote:
I dunno what you have for available models, but here goes:

1) Masque requires a list pretty much built around her... she can't join units (not an IC), so she gets eaten pretty easily by andy amount of firepower. Cut her.
2) Crushers are great and all, but fiends are better. Cut 1 unit for another unit of fiends and bump the 7 man unit to 8. Use the crushers to shield your fiends.
3) Screamers rock, but you need a lot more than 1 unit of them to be effective typically
4) guessing the 9 daemonettes were for the masque... sadly, like I said, she can't join em. So cut em.
5) make room for more horrors! I like 3 squads of 5 with 3 squads of 5 PB's
6) Yours using ONE grinder? Hes just asking for a melta to the face! Cut em for 1 more Daemon Prince
7) DP's of Khorne are too fragile... either do MoN if your going CC or MoT w/ wings and bolt if your going AT/Shooting.

Hope this helps!

1. Totally misread The Masque and thought she could join a squad of Daemonettes for some ablative wounds. If she hugs fateweaver and I use her for her lash... is she still viable? Her ability to extend the range of my Crushers has been invaluble. Do I just go Bloodthirster? Or a second Tzherald?

2. Fiends lack of Armor save totally ruins them for me. There is so much dakka in my meta, that little 5+ invo isn't saving them when they get caught out in the open after an assault. I think I need the Crushers armor save to be competetive. I've included some fiends for speed, but I definitely need the toughness.

3. I included the Screamers for an answer to Land Raiders. How many do I expect to see? Not many. I don't want to dedicate -too- much to the possibility of one tank.

4. Yep. I can replace them with Horrors easily.

5. Yep.

6. I can field 2 SG + 1 MoN prince... or 2 MoN + 1 MoT or MoK. I suppose I could build a third Nurgle prince before 'Ard Boyz... but the MoT /w BoT and Gaze combo just has not been doing it for me. Without wings, their CC component is all but useless. All they can do is slog up the board, and pew pew at targets of opportunity. I think the 6" Fateweaver bubble is a moot point regarding Daemon Prince vs. Soul Grinder, because with 2 squads of Crushers already hugging him, if the Daemon Princes stay too close, all my forces will be in one little area, and I won't have coverage across the board like I need to win objective games etc.

7. See #6


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So. Taking some advice I would have a list that looks something like this. Additionally, with a Bloodthirster in the list I'm not 100% certain I need Screamers. If so, I could drop them for another 95p squad of Pink Horrors. I own plenty of Daemons, so almost any suggestion is valid. As it stands, the list has 11 free points. Unholy Might on the Fiends would be my first choice, but if you have a more valid suggestion, please lmk. Thanks!

Chaos Daemons 2500 (2489)
-HQ-
Fateweaver 333

Bloodthirster 255
Blessings of the Blood God

-Elites-
6x Bloodcrushers 280
Full Command

6x Bloodcrushers 280
Full Command

6x Fiends of Slaanesh 180

-Fast Attack-
6x Screamers 96

-Troops-
4x Pink Horrors 100
Bolt
1x The Changeling

5x Pink Horrors 95
Bolt

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince 215
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Cloud, Noxious Touch

Daemon Prince 215
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Cloud, Noxious Touch

Daemon Prince 215
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Cloud, Noxious Touch

Interesting new list... I'd still recommend more horrors, especially if tanks are spammed in your meta. My rule of thumb 2k or less is to have 3-4 bolts per wave.

Also, screamers are OK at taking out raiders... but BT is just better. Fiends do have poor saves, yes, but with weaver a 5++ rerollable is just as good as having a 3+ statistically. Crushers are just so... slow. Fiends are awesome at wrecking rhinos and things!

Overall though I think your new list is an improvement in my opinion

This list looks pretty strong to me, I like that you are 5 MC in it for target saturation. I think your toughest matchup is going to be Dark Eldar with your T 5 spam here.

The advantage of Fiends is they are really really fast, so most times they do not even take the fire that a BC does. They also help enable some very sick multi charges against enemies to force large combat res modifiers. Imagine a units of fiends linking together 3 or 4 units while the BC pile into them as well. That is going to win combat by a long shot and send the enemy running.

calypso2ts wrote:This list looks pretty strong to me, I like that you are 5 MC in it for target saturation. I think your toughest matchup is going to be Dark Eldar with your T 5 spam here.

The advantage of Fiends is they are really really fast, so most times they do not even take the fire that a BC does. They also help enable some very sick multi charges against enemies to force large combat res modifiers. Imagine a units of fiends linking together 3 or 4 units while the BC pile into them as well. That is going to win combat by a long shot and send the enemy running.

Exactly my thoughts Fiends are awesomesauce!

I'm just going to start putting them in my second wave, to avoid the pew pew fest.

Sooo playtested against a -very- tough IG parking lot. Here's some "lessons learned" and things I may change.

1. Fiends still aren't doing it for me. 5+ save/T4 just isn't enough. Are they fast? Sure. But even in the second wave, it doesn't take very much dakka to make them fold over. All they did in the game was murder Marbo when he came in. These may lose their place in the list to screamers/additional crushers/wargear

2. Still not feeling the Pink Horrors. They may go bye bye in favor of more screamers / crushers / wargear as well. They are innacurate, unreliable and an inneffective way of fielding anti-transport.

3. The points I generate from "trimming the fat" I think I will invest in Breath of Chaos on my nurgle princes. That template is so effective at killing elite infantry, and nothings better than a pair of immobilized! results against a squadron of Leman Russ.

What it boils down to, is I may drop the Fiends and Horrors or reduce their numbers in favor of Breath of Chaos on Princes and some Daemonettes or more screamers. Bloodletters perhaps? Not totally sure. The point is... the Horrors might be okay vs AV11 and AV10... but just aren't effective AT vs AV12, and that's what I'm the most afraid of. The Fiends just don't have the toughness/save to get themselves stuck in, and currently they are spending enough points for 4 more crushers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The list would look a little something like:

Chaos Daemons 2500 (2495)
-HQ-
Fateweaver 333

Bloodthirster 255
Blessings of the Blood God

-Elites-
6x Bloodcrushers 280
Full Command

6x Bloodcrushers 280
Full Command

-Fast Attack-
6x Screamers 96

6x Screamers 96

-Troops-
4x Pink Horrors 100
Bolt
1x The Changeling

5x Pink Horrors 95
Bolt

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince 245
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Cloud, Noxious Touch, Breath of Chaos

Daemon Prince 245
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Cloud, Noxious Touch, Breath of Chaos

Daemon Prince 245
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Cloud, Noxious Touch, Breath of Chaos

IMO Thirsters are pretty expensive for what they bring, I'd prefer a GUO (lasts longer thanks to FnP and is much cheaper). The Masque also combos well in a Fatecrusher list IMO.

I'd drop breath off the Princes, everything in the Daemon army already kills infantry, and a 50/50 chance to glance tanks is a bit too iffy.

Horrors are also a bit meh for antitank, single bs3 multimeltas don't really cut it. I'd drop them and take a squad of fiends for AT, they can smack most all vehicles (with their rear AV of 10) around nicely.

Screamers are good, you might wanna test them in 3 squads of 4 but YMMV.

In any case, fill out that third elite slot!! The best units in the Daemon Codex are found in the Elites section, you've gotta maximize the use you get out of it.

Just my .02

Probably right about the BoC on the princes Jabbdo, it's a little bit overkill. Might end up splitting into 3 squads of 4 on the Screamers, but for now it's point correct, and I can modify it as I see fit. Here's a revision:

Fatecrusherzilla 2500 (2500)

=HQ=
Fateweaver 333

Bloodthirster 255
Blessings of the Blood God

=Elites=
6x Bloodcrushers of Khorne 280
Full Command

6x Bloodcrushers of Khorne 280
Full Command

6x Fiends of Slaanesh 190
Unholy Might

=Fast Attack=
6x Screamers of Tzeentch 96

6x Screamers of Tzeentch 96

=Troops=
1x The Changeling 100
4xPink Horrors
Bolt of Tzeentch

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

5x Plaguebearers 75

=Heavy Support=
Daemon Prince 215
MoN, Iron Hide, Wings, Cloud, Touch

Daemon Prince 215
MoN, Iron Hide, Wings, Cloud, Touch

Daemon Prince 215
MoN, Iron Hide, Wings, Cloud, Touch

Seems good now, personally not a huge fan of Thirsters, but they do work, I can't deny that, so YMMV

How are thinking of splitting waves?

Looks a lot like a daemon army I faced (battle report found here), except his army was at 2K. This was his list:


Kairos Fateweaver
Bloodthirster - Blessings of the Blood God, Unholy Might

4x Bloodcrushers
4x Bloodcrushers
5x Fiends of Slaanesh

5x Plaguebearers - Icon
5x Plaguebearers - Icon
5x Plaguebearers

Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch
Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch
Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch


However, I would swap out 1 unit of crushers for another unit of fiends. Fatecrusher is out. Fiendcrusher is in. Also, don't put too many upgrades into your DP's. They're too easy to take down. Then with the extra points, get more troops. I would go something like this:



Kairos Fateweaver
Bloodthirster - Blessings of the Blood God, Unholy Might

6x Bloodcrushers - Full Command
6x Fiends of Slaanesh - Unholy Might
6x Fiends of Slaanesh - Unholy Might

5x Pink Horrors - Bolt, Changeling
5x Pink Horrors - Bolt
5x Pink Horrors - Bolt
5x Plaguebearers
5x Plaguebearers

5x Screamers
4x Screamers

Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch
Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch
Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch



But what I feel is lacking is some AT. Consider swapping out the Nurgle DP's for Bolt DP's.

jy2 wrote:Looks a lot like a daemon army I faced (battle report found here), except his army was at 2K. This was his list:


Kairos Fateweaver
Bloodthirster - Blessings of the Blood God, Unholy Might

4x Bloodcrushers
4x Bloodcrushers
5x Fiends of Slaanesh

5x Plaguebearers - Icon
5x Plaguebearers - Icon
5x Plaguebearers

Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch
Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch
Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch


However, I would swap out 1 unit of crushers for another unit of fiends. Fatecrusher is out. Fiendcrusher is in. Also, don't put too many upgrades into your DP's. They're too easy to take down. Then with the extra points, get more troops. I would go something like this:



Kairos Fateweaver
Bloodthirster - Blessings of the Blood God, Unholy Might

6x Bloodcrushers - Full Command
6x Fiends of Slaanesh - Unholy Might
6x Fiends of Slaanesh - Unholy Might

5x Pink Horrors - Bolt, Changeling
5x Pink Horrors - Bolt
5x Pink Horrors - Bolt
5x Plaguebearers
5x Plaguebearers

5x Screamers
4x Screamers

Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch
Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch
Daemon Prince - Cloud of Flies, Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch



But what I feel is lacking is some AT. Consider swapping out the Nurgle DP's for Bolt DP's.

Took the words right outta my mouth.

Fiends and Horrors are AWESOME... but you need to play em right. Sure, horrors are inaccurate; thats why you run LOTS of small squads. Personally, I prefer bolt princes for the 4++ (combines well with Kairos) and more AT. At 1850 I have 3 DP's with bolt, kairos, and 4 units of horrors, which means I have 8 ranged AT threats. Horrors also provide great dakka (15 shots/turn) for hordes. Daemons are awesome at taking on IG (see my report http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369083.page ) if ya do em right!

What it seems like, from playtesting, is that certain very effective 'Ard Boyz style lists (IG Parking lot, BA MSU) are able to put a serious hurting on my Fiends, and it is causing them to get wiped out, and fast.

While I don't deny that their speed is important, I don't think that at this high points level, you can rely on T4 5++ to be the backbone of your army.

While I know that some people must get a lot of mileage out of bolt DPs.... I just don't. The 4++ with no armor save makes them vulnerable to small arms, and T5 just isn't what it used to be. Theres waaay too much reliance on heavy weaponry now. I find MoN to be the only way I can run princes that will survive long enough to matter at this point cost.

Cottonjaw wrote:What it seems like, from playtesting, is that certain very effective 'Ard Boyz style lists (IG Parking lot, BA MSU) are able to put a serious hurting on my Fiends, and it is causing them to get wiped out, and fast.

While I don't deny that their speed is important, I don't think that at this high points level, you can rely on T4 5++ to be the backbone of your army.

While I know that some people must get a lot of mileage out of bolt DPs.... I just don't. The 4++ with no armor save makes them vulnerable to small arms, and T5 just isn't what it used to be. Theres waaay too much reliance on heavy weaponry now. I find MoN to be the only way I can run princes that will survive long enough to matter at this point cost.

Then the question is this; where is fateweaver when all this is happening?

The ENTIRE point of a weaver list is to keep stuff nearby him as they drop in and spread out from there. A 4++ rerollable is about as good as a 3+ (a little more I think statistically), and a 5++ rerollable is a bit better than a 4+. Yes, fiends have low toughness... but if even 3 live thats 18 str 5 attacks on the charge in the coming turn. Crushers are supposed to be your anvil, fiends your hammer, and everything else supports those units. Most of the time when my fiends drop in I try and drop them near or in cover. They still get their 5++ if you get hit with dangerous terrain, but if you do it right, and fateweavers near, you won't lose one often. And even then, you have a 4+ cover next turn. The power of Tzeentch DP's is everything hurts them the same; they are slightly more vunerable to small arms fire, but are 16% more likely to live through heavy arms fire (which is all most people shoot at em). Plus, Tzeentch DP's don't have to hide and get cover as it doesn't give you any benefit; throw them at the nearest vehicle til it dies and move on from there. DP's of Nurgle are better in CC, but they can't destroy vehicles any easier than a Tzeentch one. And you need to rely on cover so you don't get shot to hell by missiles!

Of course, as I say with everything, some stuff just doesn't work for some players. I.E. My ravager dark lances seem to miss a LOT more than 33% of the time.... But I still try em!

As for how I intend to split my waves, I usually choose my toughest targets to be part of the initial wave (Fateweaver, Crushers, Princes, Bloodthirster) with my more fragile choices (Fiends, Horrors, PB) coming in to support them. The idea being that if something is going to be taking all that shooting in the chest turn 1, I want it to be T6 or at least T5, with a decent pair of saves.

Really though, I tailor my waves to what I'm playing against. After I see my opponents list, it's usually pretty easy to decide how to bring my waves in. Lots of mech? Screamers might make their way into a starting wave. Nids? Bring out the Nurgle Princes.

You know.

Cottonjaw wrote:As for how I intend to split my waves, I usually choose my toughest targets to be part of the initial wave (Fateweaver, Crushers, Princes, Bloodthirster) with my more fragile choices (Fiends, Horrors, PB) coming in to support them. The idea being that if something is going to be taking all that shooting in the chest turn 1, I want it to be T6 or at least T5, with a decent pair of saves.

Really though, I tailor my waves to what I'm playing against. After I see my opponents list, it's usually pretty easy to decide how to bring my waves in. Lots of mech? Screamers might make their way into a starting wave. Nids? Bring out the Nurgle Princes.

You know.

Well thats how your supposed to play Daemons But either way, Crushers die just as easily to lists like BA razorspam because... well, 20 plasma shots kills a 5++ the same no matter what toughness they are! Daemons need things that are quicker (Fiends/hounds) to catch things like Wave Serpents as well as shooty stuff (horrors/dp's/grinders) to take down vehicles on the drop. Your biggest PITA will be things like Wave Serpent spam or other quick lists. I know my BA could run from crushers for most of the game then throw a dread into them to tie them up while taking down the rest of your stuff; thats why I think thirsters are so awesome!

Zid wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:What it seems like, from playtesting, is that certain very effective 'Ard Boyz style lists (IG Parking lot, BA MSU) are able to put a serious hurting on my Fiends, and it is causing them to get wiped out, and fast.

While I don't deny that their speed is important, I don't think that at this high points level, you can rely on T4 5++ to be the backbone of your army.

While I know that some people must get a lot of mileage out of bolt DPs.... I just don't. The 4++ with no armor save makes them vulnerable to small arms, and T5 just isn't what it used to be. Theres waaay too much reliance on heavy weaponry now. I find MoN to be the only way I can run princes that will survive long enough to matter at this point cost.

Then the question is this; where is fateweaver when all this is happening?

The ENTIRE point of a weaver list is to keep stuff nearby him as they drop in and spread out from there. A 4++ rerollable is about as good as a 3+ (a little more I think statistically), and a 5++ rerollable is a bit better than a 4+. Yes, fiends have low toughness... but if even 3 live thats 18 str 5 attacks on the charge in the coming turn. Crushers are supposed to be your anvil, fiends your hammer, and everything else supports those units.

Of course, as I say with everything, some stuff just doesn't work for some players. I.E. My ravager dark lances seem to miss a LOT more than 33% of the time.... But I still try em!

Fateweaver is providing re-rolls to as much as he can, but that 6" isn't very far. I sneak one crusher per squad within 6" of Fateweaver as well as Screamers and anything else fragile, but I find that "deathstar" mentality isn't very effective past turns 1&2. You have to play the mission. You have to spread out, hold table quarters, hold objectives, king of the hill. Tournament missions can be very complex, especially with the advent of secondary and tertiary objectives.

The real advantage of the Nurgle prince is that he is a tough enough to operate independently of Fateweaver. He doesn't need a bubble.

Cottonjaw wrote:

Zid wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:What it seems like, from playtesting, is that certain very effective 'Ard Boyz style lists (IG Parking lot, BA MSU) are able to put a serious hurting on my Fiends, and it is causing them to get wiped out, and fast.

While I don't deny that their speed is important, I don't think that at this high points level, you can rely on T4 5++ to be the backbone of your army.

While I know that some people must get a lot of mileage out of bolt DPs.... I just don't. The 4++ with no armor save makes them vulnerable to small arms, and T5 just isn't what it used to be. Theres waaay too much reliance on heavy weaponry now. I find MoN to be the only way I can run princes that will survive long enough to matter at this point cost.

Then the question is this; where is fateweaver when all this is happening?

The ENTIRE point of a weaver list is to keep stuff nearby him as they drop in and spread out from there. A 4++ rerollable is about as good as a 3+ (a little more I think statistically), and a 5++ rerollable is a bit better than a 4+. Yes, fiends have low toughness... but if even 3 live thats 18 str 5 attacks on the charge in the coming turn. Crushers are supposed to be your anvil, fiends your hammer, and everything else supports those units.

Of course, as I say with everything, some stuff just doesn't work for some players. I.E. My ravager dark lances seem to miss a LOT more than 33% of the time.... But I still try em!

Fateweaver is providing re-rolls to as much as he can, but that 6" isn't very far. I sneak one crusher per squad within 6" of Fateweaver as well as Screamers and anything else fragile, but I find that "deathstar" mentality isn't very effective past turns 1&2. You have to play the mission. You have to spread out, hold table quarters, hold objectives, king of the hill. Tournament missions can be very complex, especially with the advent of secondary and tertiary objectives.

The real advantage of the Nurgle prince is that he is a tough enough to operate independently of Fateweaver. He doesn't need a bubble.

I understand playin the mission; but the units most useful to you aren't the units who are holding objectives, but the ones clearing objectives and dominating things. The thing with Daemons is our troops really suck at doing most things... Letters and Daemonettes chop up things, but die easily, PB's can't do any damage, but can hold objectives like a champ. Horrors are fragile and shooty, but can't hold most things well. I always run weaver alongside the most fragile things I use (fiends) and try and keep my princes nearby until the last second.

Of course, what works for me might not work for you, and vice versa. I used to run a dual thirster/triple soul grinder list that worked awesomely, but most people thinks sucks... so to each his own