Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

When building an army for a VERY competitive environment, what is on your check list of "must haves" to be prepared for? I am trying to compile a list of current threats that must be dealt with.

raiders- melta/ high str 2d6 MCs
psychic defense
altering how the other player plays- lash, IG officers
Null deployment
transport- high volume of str6-8 shots
Horde- templates, blasts. high rate of fire/attacks
Deathstars


these are some examples of what i feel balanced lists should be able to deal with, what are some other ways of dealing with them, and what are some other current threats that you look to negate when list building?

I think a big mistake of many gamers is to play to the meta game. Yes you have to be aware of what you will be fighting but a really good list makes the player play to you, not the other way around. Just do your thing.

Yeah, it always seemed silly to me to try and tailor your list to other people. There's one person in particular I know of who is constantly swapping out units when he sees what you're placing on the board. I tend to have favourites, and so even if I know what I'll be facing in the next battle, I find myself hard pressed to actually swap units or weapons simply because of attachment or sentimental feelings. Winning be damned, just have fun! Blow stuff up! High body counts!

A must have for me to play any game competitively is to have an army of models I am very used to using and know I can use seamlessly, familiarity with your own list is more important to me than mathhammer and a checklist. Before I go into a tourney, I just make sure I know the capabilities of my units beyond the simple numbers on their statline. To me, that is paramount.

im not talking about list tailoring for a specific army, or hoping that a particular build is an auto win list. im asking what players are building into their lists for competitive play, what threats they are building to defeat. im basically hoping to create a list of threats, to help with list building in competitive play. whether your a WAAC or very casual player, we all would like to win, and discussing tactics on how to accomplish this is never a bad thing.

Playing to the meta isn't worth it, IMO simply because it restricts what you can do. I like to throw together bizarre lists that nobody is expecting and see what happens.

The current meta game has a target opponent, opponents that it can handle, opponents that it is weak against, and then everything else.

There are two sides to the metagame, ATM. Correct me if I am wrong, but I read it as 'armour' and 'anti-armour'. If you run a list that doesn't fit into either side, you instantly have an advantage in that your opponent isn't ready for your list.

TLDR: build the list you want without trying to counter specific units. Don't play into the meta either way.

-cgmckenzie

okkk lets take the term "meta" out of it. lets talk about, instead, building a strong list to face multiple threats in a competitive environment. what are these threats, and how do you plan for them, and others with the same list?

You field nids, and take 3 hvc harpies and 2 winged devtyrants. 1030 points, and you can take on anything.
Null deploy? You too. Or not.
Raiders? 5 MCs.
Terminators? Catch me if you can.
12 rhinos? Tl s9 shots make you cry then die.

Fill in the rest of the list to taste. Then sitback and say,
"I'm So Meta Even This Acronym."

Texas Instrument wrote:You field nids, and take 3 hvc harpies and 2 winged devtyrants. 1030 points, and you can take on anything.
Null deploy? You too. Or not.
Raiders? 5 MCs.
Terminators? Catch me if you can.
12 rhinos? Tl s9 shots make you cry then die.

Fill in the rest of the list to taste. Then sitback and say,
"I'm So Meta Even This Acronym."

Which doesn't deal with Dark Eldar very well at all. =p Eat that Meta!

Basically, you need to be able to:

Kill tanks, infantry and heavy infantry in reasonable amounts.

You should look at your army and think, can this handle 8 rhinos, 2 land raiders, 100 guardsmen, 8 Monstrous Creatures, 30 terminators or 60 flying marines? If not, tweak stuff. (these numbers are probably a bit off, depending on what points level you play, but you get the idea)

Making a balanced list is something that takes a while to figure out, and the more you play it the more you'll figure out what you like and what you don't. Most of the newer codexes have multiple tools for the same job. If you don't like speeders, try bikes. If you don't like Predators, try devastators (gave an SM example cuz most people know that book). Stuff like that.

Look around the internetz at lists people make and think, how would i fight that? Make changes, test them out.

That's really the only way to make a balanced and competitive list that i know of.

Dash, yes it does. Crazy shielding be damned, if those 5 MCs deepstrike, armor 10 is a joke. On a kp game, that's 5 tanks, maybe you kill 5 MCs in return, maybe. On an objective game, those DE are walking.

De haate brainleech worms. Instadeath with no fnp.

I'm sorry but anyone that advocated MC's as being the way to beat Dark Eldar obviously doesnt play against Dark Eldar enough.

Well, our local meta in our area loves terminator squads of 10 with TH/SS, so if you don't bring some plasma you're gonna have a fun time

And by "loves" I mean "4/5" armies-literally-have terminators like this to some extent somewhere in them. It's absurd.

Texas Instrument wrote:Dash, yes it does. Crazy shielding be damned, if those 5 MCs deepstrike, armor 10 is a joke. On a kp game, that's 5 tanks, maybe you kill 5 MCs in return, maybe. On an objective game, those DE are walking.

De haate brainleech worms. Instadeath with no fnp.

It's because you're assuming those 5 MC's are going to deepstrike all within range of a vehicle and each destroy 1. And if they're not all in on the same turn, you're boned.

Mr. Self Destruct wrote:

Texas Instrument wrote:Dash, yes it does. Crazy shielding be damned, if those 5 MCs deepstrike, armor 10 is a joke. On a kp game, that's 5 tanks, maybe you kill 5 MCs in return, maybe. On an objective game, those DE are walking.

De haate brainleech worms. Instadeath with no fnp.

It's because you're assuming those 5 MC's are going to deepstrike all within range of a vehicle and each destroy 1. And if they're not all in on the same turn, you're boned.

And that getting a chance to wreck a 65 point transport is a good trade out for the life of a MC....

Rather than look at the strengths of an opponant or group of opponants (i.e the local meta) I prefer to look at my own army and iron out the creases and tie off the loose ends. I make sure my list has a capable ammount of anti-tank, anti-transport/heavy infantry and anti-infantry. I'll also usually spread it out a little between vehicles and infantry. This way I always have the right tools for the job and rarely get caught on the back foot. Making sure you know your own list and units well through thorough play means you can also pull through when an opponant does catch you off guard. The majority of this can be done before you even think about having a battle.

The problem with trying to keep up with the local meta is that it changes too quickly for you to keep on top of and some odd fads keep making an appearance now and then. You can't make a list that is simply immune to all the dirty little tricks or heavily specialised lists. The only way to keep winning from this kind of play is to be the one constantly making the changes and staying one step ahead of the game with your own new ideas and tactics. If you make a nicely balanced list which gives you a few options however, you can go far. My lists don't vary too much when I take to the table (unless i'm trying something fun like an all infantry build) The reason my lists don't change much is because 1, I know the units inside out and what to expect and 2, My lists give me enough flexibility to change my game plan from one game to another depending on the terrain, opponant, or just how i'm feeling. Having a list like that is, IMHO, harder to beat since even though the list doesn't change, the gameplay does. An example would be the last time I played my regular opponants necrons. I held a solid refused flank and out shot him as he hesisted to attack. The next game he doesn't hesistate and charges straight in but this time i'm playing more aggressively and sending my power blobs and demo vets forward too!

With my vanilla marines I make sure that every unit I include can reasonably threaten most things in this game (infantry, elite infantry, hoard, MC, transport, heavy tank) for the lowest amount of points possible. Usually means I have lots of small squads and tons of tanks and my competitive SM lists kind of play like a guard army. Fortunately SM have plenty of choices in every FOC that can put the hurt on anything. No one unit wreaks face on anything in particular but the whole army together packs a huge punch and is pretty mobile. I don't think I could play an army like eldar where each unit has a specific job i would feel too constrained.

That said I don't worry too much about the meta because I can deal with most things and rarely have a bad match up. I think a solid all comers list will go a long way in any local scene.

Meta is specific and lopsided by construction, because it involves a small number of players at your FLGS. Even if you are new to the group, after a few games, you will know what the local meta likes to field and how it likes to use it. Then it is much simpler to make an all-comer list that is fun and reasonably effective. By contrast, trying to build an all-comer army for a tournament is a far bigger challenge.