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Welp time to start an Empire gunline. I wonder how no guessing works for cannons because suddenly Hellstorm Rocket Batteries might have just got broken.

Also no guess along with Screaming Skull Catapults or any Skaven template weapons is going to make games super not fun.

Good players always guess right on anyways

This will stop the arguments about overguessing though.

If you don't need to guess anymore I can definatly see stone throwers and their ilk becoming much more popular. Doomdiver anyone?

Kirasu wrote:Someone needs to play more FPS games to get the joke!

Really? My first thought was "grab a BB gun and go outside", CTF was invented by the FPS gaming, nor was KotH.
____

Grimstonefire wrote:Special Choices: No more than 3 of the same type

Warmachines: There'll be no guessing anymore. You place the template (or point of impact) where you want the weapon to hit and roll normally for scatter.

I think I just heard an Empire player wet himself in the distance over thoughts of 3 Great Cannon backed by a trio of Mortars...

This is obvious.

Yay for more homogenization of 40K and WHFB.

I mean come on.

It's cleaner and faster. Speeds the game up and eliminates certain abuses that were legit under the old rules. Also makes artillery worth it.

Boycott is over baby...I'm jumping all over 8th I'm getting really good vibes about this

If WFB takes the speed of 40k and gets rid of the needless rules of 7th edition then I say mixing is a good thing

Karon wrote:Yay for more homogenization of 40K and WHFB.

I mean come on.

Once more, you'll notice that a lot of the people who are loving the new WHFB rules are also saying that it becoming more like 40K is a good thing. If I'm going to play a 40K-like game, I'll just play 40K. It's that simple.

It is not homogenization, it is learning from success. There's a lot about 40k I don't like, so I stopped playing it a few years ago. There are also some things that I do like about 40k though, and it seems that it is those rules making the transition into Fantasy, which I think is a good thing. I am pleased with most of the rumored changes so far; I will make due with the rest.

If it's 25% max for characters, I'm done. That means in a 2k game I can't even take Sigvald, the Slaanesh special character I was SO excited about, after Slaanesh got completely ignored for so long.

That aside, in standard 2250 games I could bring him, but then that's the ONLY character I could take. I can't even take a chaos lord and a BSB with that limitation. I'm not a fan of having half my army characters, but when I can ONLY take a SINGLE good character, it sucks.

And my VC are pretty much done too. VC depends on characters, and a lord with magic items/abilities plus 3 vampires with items/abilities generally comes out to half the army, which in my opinion is how VC SHOULD be played. They aren't "uber" characters that dominate the field, hell they're naked 2 wound T4 models. Hardly hero hammer, especially once the horde is summoned and on full steam ahead.

And now if chaos warriors buy shields, they can't march ever? I can't believe that.

There's almost no way to guess so well that you will perfectly maximize templates. While you can be very accurate with a guess weapon, simply placing it over the unit allows you to tag upwards of 20 models and this will hit with 33% accuracy and that's with the SMALL template. This will be even more crazy with Skaven shooting that doesn't allow partials. I know 40k players are going crazy that there's one less step, but templates in Fantasy have a lot more impact due to clustered infantry units so they should not be so accurate. Over guessing and cannon sniping aren't as big an issue anymore since characters can be targeted out anyway unlike in 6th edition. This is a stupid change that I hope is a bogus rumor.

People that are excited for mass infantry armies are in for a surprise when their units are gunned off the field in two turns from massed template weaponry.

Start playing bigger games. I think 2500 is going to be come the new standard for my group.

@ Spellbound: If chaos warrirors take shields they can still march. You should go back and read what Grim has posted about heavy cavalry. It's highlighted red.

Spellbound wrote:If it's 25% max for characters, I'm done. That means in a 2k game I can't even take Sigvald, the Slaanesh special character I was SO excited about, after Slaanesh got completely ignored for so long.

That aside, in standard 2250 games I could bring him, but then that's the ONLY character I could take. I can't even take a chaos lord and a BSB with that limitation. I'm not a fan of having half my army characters, but when I can ONLY take a SINGLE good character, it sucks.

And my VC are pretty much done too. VC depends on characters, and a lord with magic items/abilities plus 3 vampires with items/abilities generally comes out to half the army, which in my opinion is how VC SHOULD be played. They aren't "uber" characters that dominate the field, hell they're naked 2 wound T4 models. Hardly hero hammer, especially once the horde is summoned and on full steam ahead.

And now if chaos warriors buy shields, they can't march ever? I can't believe that.

They wont be "done".. Believe it or not vampire counts have more than just ghouls, zombies and grave guard.. With fear not being autobreak vamp players might actually have to adapt to tactics other than "raise guys.. hope i out number"

Infreak wrote:@ Spellbound: If chaos warrirors take shields they can still march. You should go back and read what Grim has posted about heavy cavalry. It's highlighted red.

The highlighted red part says that if you have 3+ save or better, you can't march. Chaos Warriors have a 3+ base save if they have shields (2+ in hth)

Rated G wrote:Start playing bigger games. I think 2500 is going to be come the new standard for my group.

I have a feeling it will be 3,000. Everyone mentions codex creep, this is scale creep. More models to buy, more money to GW (or maybe Mantic )

skyth wrote:

Infreak wrote:@ Spellbound: If chaos warrirors take shields they can still march. You should go back and read what Grim has posted about heavy cavalry. It's highlighted red.

The highlighted red part says that if you have 3+ save or better, you can't march. Chaos Warriors have a 3+ base save if they have shields (2+ in hth)

It also goes on to say "heavy armour and shield would allow you to march, as the +1 HW & shield is only in combat." So marching would still be allowed.

Chaos Warriors have chaos armor and a natural 3+ save with shields.

Also I'd like to know what tactics that Vampire counts will have to adapt to with this new system since the army is pretty limited with no shooting, and with a heavy character and magic focus. Not sure how any of the units in the current book get any more useful with the new rumors although great weapon grave guard get crappier, Banner of the Blood Keep is fairly pointless and there's a reason to not give Black Knights barding.

Ixquic wrote:Also I'd like to know what tactics that Vampire counts will have to adapt to with this new system since the army is pretty limited with no shooting, and with a heavy character and magic focus. Not sure how any of the units in the current book get any more useful with the new rumors although great weapon grave guard get crappier, Banner of the Blood Keep is fairly pointless and there's a reason to not give Black Knights barding.

Obviously Skeletons - WS2, S3, A1, 5+ save models - just became competitive as they can easily do wounds in comb- oh wait a minute. Hm, what about a 50+ big unit of Skeletons? There's no way they can wipe it out fast enough for your mages to be unable to supplemen- oh wait. Well, at least your unit is now stubbo- no. Hm...

Perhaps if you count every Skeleton as Richter Kreuger...

Minsc wrote:

Karon wrote:Yay for more homogenization of 40K and WHFB.

I mean come on.

Once more, you'll notice that a lot of the people who are loving the new WHFB rules are also saying that it becoming more like 40K is a good thing. If I'm going to play a 40K-like game, I'll just play 40K. It's that simple.

I concur. WHFB is not 40k. While I certainly have a preference of swords and magic over guns and tanks, my primary concern is that 40k too often devolved into a shootout and was relatively stale. 5E changed this up, but I still find WHFB more exciting and more tactically challenging than 40k. Maybe my opinion isn't a popular one, and maybe it's because I don't yet have a lot of experience playing it (a whole 4 or 5 games so far), but 40k seems more won or lost during roster creation and deployment than on the table. In WHFB, it's a bit harder: you can either balance out your usefulness in all phases, or choose one/two to dominate. For instance, my Warriors of Tzeentch are built to dominate the magic phase, then mop up in combat. My Dark Elves dominate the movement phase (arguably the most important phase of the game). My Empire can either balance out or go gunline. I like the options, and I can do almost anything.

The more 'rumors' I hear, the less I like. I guarantee that if guessing goes away (like they did with 40k) then my Empire army will suddenly become scary as hell (especially if partials are gone from my mortars).

If partials go away, any army with Template weapons is going to be scary when facing pretty much anything. Once more, this isn't like 40K for template weapons.

Imagine if you will that 40K Squads must wander around like a freshly deep-striking squad (all models in base-to-base). Now imagine they're hit by a Frag Missile. Now, imagine the center model under the hole is hit at S8. It gets better. Now, imagine that all those hit don't have their regular armor save - if they have an Invuln, they keep it.

Oh, and as final icing on the cake, if the cake, if those are multi-wound models, they each take D6 wounds instead of the standard 1. Did we mention how against 20mm regiments, those direct hits can get a nice 21 models touched (16 partials, 5 full hits)? The reason you have to guess is so that you require some skill to potentially hit 21 models in a single shot.

Um, guessing isn't a "skill". At least, not after the first shot...

Not even for the first shot if you can do basic math.....

And the amount of time it took a lot of people to do that math is frustrating in the extreme. Makes games faster! And by this I mean friendly games or pick up games. Tournament players know there is a time limit and act accordingly most of the time but since there is no limit set on friendly games it can get just silly....

Keep the awesome sauceness of rumors coming!

War Machines
# [*]Weapons using the flame template or large or small blast templates automatically hit any model in contact rather than cause partial hits. If you are touched, you are hit. -Avian and someone else, so I'm considering this confirmed now

Barbed razordons are already a long way behind salamanders but with the boost this will give sallies, they should be 100-120 a pop. At a tourney a couple weekends ago I had 2 causing 15-20 hits per turn with the current rules. that would easily go 30+ under the new rules.

Brilliant.

I'm not sure I like where we're heading, but I'll certainly give it a fair shake...

Agreed, guess weapons serve no purpose other than to perpetuate a fallacy that somehow guessing is skillful.. Just be done with it and go with direct placement + scatter. It has the same result and its faster

Oh, and btw, I forgot to post this, from a very long standing member, and a GW store owner over at Relicnews.

Guys, I was in Vegas and I did not recieve a 'sheet'. You have been bullshitted.

Lots of negativity spawning around here based on some pretty thin rumors and theory hammering.

The game is going to change, period. It will be 8th edition, not 7.5th edition. If you hate the new rule set completely, hold on to your 7th ed stuff and play it out that way...but the key word here is set. It's a set of rules, not just a couple of changes in a vacuum.

Taken by themselves you might find yourself scratching your head or just upset. Looking at the rules and the game as a whole will very likely give a better understanding of what's going on.

So yeah.

Actual thread can be found here: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=246971

Interesting.

And yes, I think most of are going to wait until the sky is falling to start yelling about the fact that the sky is falling.

Maybe.

Kirasu wrote:Agreed, guess weapons serve no purpose other than to perpetuate a fallacy that somehow guessing is skillful.. Just be done with it and go with direct placement + scatter. It has the same result and its faster

This might work well if they issue new scatter dice with only 1 'HIT' symbol better representing the difficulty of dropping the missile directly on target. A 1/3 chance is just a little too good and you would start seeing more Engineers in Empire/Dwarf armies!

Characters should also have a 2+ save against war machine fire full stop. You can't hit an individual with cannons/mortars unless you're really lucky. A British general (Gough?) in the Sikh Wars understood this and during one battle, galloped off to his flank to draw enemy artillery fire away from his infantry. It worked too. They threw everything they had at him and he didn't get a scratch.