Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

All I really see when I see the rumors are certain armies getting massive boosts. The biggest problem for some armies (i.e. orcs, dwarves, empire, and maybe a few more) is that their killing stuff has always been in the special slots. But you only ever had 4 special slots which meant that you could never fit in those anvil units and hammer units.

Now Dwarves will be able to field hammerers/slayers/ironbreakers and warmachines for a change. Orcs can field boar boyz/chariots/artillery/black orcs in numbers now.

I see armies with solid core like Warriors/Dwarves/Lizardmen getting a huge boost too. Lizardmen in particular will be nasty if it's just base attacks in extra ranks since with spears that's 3 ranks of 2 attacks each. Even if it's only 1 attack for the extra rank it's still huge and nasty. It's a new age of fantasy and even though we will see those 15 cannon armies....(damn dwarf/empire gunlines) we're gonna see a greater variety overall which will only help I think.

An interesting point, but I'm not sure that allowing 10 cannons (not to mention 4 Helblaster Volley Guns) in a 2000pt game is a fantastic idea.

This edition could become War Machine Hammer...

Flashman wrote:An interesting point, but I'm not sure that allowing 10 cannons (not to mention 4 Helblaster Volley Guns) in a 2000pt game is a fantastic idea.

This edition could become War Machine Hammer...

Let's just call it WM/H for short.

I did the Math. A 25% Rare allocation for Dwarves in a 2000pt game allows for 3 Organ Guns and a Flame Cannon. Nice.

Except that with your example that would barely be possible and any army with flyers wins auto-matically. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's gonna happen. I do think warmachines will see more use but I also think that flyers will as well. And I think chariots are gonna make a big comeback since they can't be insta-killed anymore. There is a whole new world for Fantasy. Makes me glad I haven't played a game since the DE book came out. I won't have as much trouble erasing it as other people

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I did the Math. A 25% Rare allocation for Dwarves in a 2000pt game allows for 3 Organ Guns and a Flame Cannon. Nice.

I seen your 3 Organ Guns and Flame Cannon and raise you 5 Warp Lightning Cannons. Mmmwwhahahaha!

That's assuming that that slots are also removed as well.

Yeah thats pretty silly.. A lot of war machine costs were based around the fact that you could only have 2 max and then nothing else

Yay my lizardmen can get.. more salamanders?

I have read (and heard) rumours about them limiting the slots by number:

3 x maximum per special choice (e.g. 3 x units of Chaos Knights, or 3 x units of chosen, or 3 x units of forsaken etc)
2 x maximum per rare choice (e.g. 2 x Chaos Spawnn or 2 x chaos giant, or 2 x hellcannon etc)

This doesn't scale terribly well for massive battles, but to be honest it would only be really huge games where anyone would really notice imo.


I've had a pm with another load of rumours, but before posting I'm getting the opinions of other people who have told me things.
That way (hopefully) I will only add things to the sticky that are more likely, than just adding things and saying they are already discredited.

I can't imagine slots and percentages being combined. I suppose it's possible but think about it. If they use both it's a limiting factor only for armies that are character reliant. Only those players go out and buy new stuff. Take out those slot options though and a lot of mid-low tier fantasy armies go out and buy those specials that are killy to add to their army while those character reliant armies also go out and buy stuff. I don't see GW missing out on that opportunity.

And Lizardmen are just getting a boost by having amazing core that are tough and well armored that can fight in up to 3 ranks now Oh and I normally didn't have any extra space in my special slots after Kroxigor and Terridons. But now I can get pick up some Coldone Calvary too

The number of slots could very well be changed for each army. Character reliant armies are allowed to take more while others cannot. Very much like how HE get more special slots and Bretts get more hero slots.

Hulksmash wrote:Now Dwarves will be able to field hammerers/slayers/ironbreakers and warmachines for a change. Orcs can field boar boyz/chariots/artillery/black orcs in numbers now.

While I rarely saw Iron Breakers (barring specific scenarios) and Slayers (barring specific lists) in my GW, Hammers I saw all the time.

Also, what O&G army lists are you looking at? Artillery is one of the few things wielded frequently in a competetive list, let alone fun ones (Doom Divers). Furthermore, there's a reason you don't see Boar Boyz now: They suck. They're overpriced (model-wise) for their stats, and in the case of Savage Orc Boar Boyz both lack durability (at best a 4+ save / 6+ Ward) and have the whole "200pt 5 model unit can't do jack 13% of the game" thing. Unless your whole thing was Orcs can field all five at once, in which case there's no purpose. Or in case you meant Black Orcs and Boar Boyz in large numbers, which is never going to happen because they're too pricey for what they do (O&G special's are often ignored for Artillery not because it's not worth sacrificing the War Machines, but that - barring Chariots - most of it sucks against anything other than either Dwarves or Empire when it comes to a core v special comparison).

Of course, Orc Boar Riders are likely going to get some absurd upgrade next edition (Black Orcs too), but that's it.

Hulksmash wrote:I see armies with solid core like Warriors/Dwarves/Lizardmen getting a huge boost too. Lizardmen in particular will be nasty if it's just base attacks in extra ranks since with spears that's 3 ranks of 2 attacks each. Even if it's only 1 attack for the extra rank it's still huge and nasty. It's a new age of fantasy and even though we will see those 15 cannon armies....(damn dwarf/empire gunlines) we're gonna see a greater variety overall which will only help I think.

I've said it before, and I'll repeat: Orcs & Goblins have only two effective lists now.
List A: Gorbad, Big Boss, Shaman, Fanatic-delivery Gobbo units, Bolt Throwers, 50+ big unit of Big 'Uns carrying Gorbad and - if an Orc Big Boss - the Big Boss. Put all the points in a pretty much unbreakable (Ld 10 re-roll stubborn unit) and just park its ass on top an objective.

List B: If 50% special 25% rare, 5 Doom Diver Catapults, 14 Bolt Throwers, 5 Rock Lobbers, and then cram as many NG Fanatic-delivery units as you can in with a 30pt general (seemingly 3 units w/ 3 Fanatics ATM). Units within 12" of general are still immune to panic, army throws 9D6 S5 hits at whoever manages to get close, and you're putting out 24 No-Save shots a turn (19 of which can theoretically kill 6 ea. a turn, the other 5 even more). If 25% / 25%, it drops to 8 Bolt Throwers, 3 Rock lobbers, 5 Doom Divers, same general, 4 Night Goblin units w/ 3 Fanatics now, and the spare points on NG Big Bosses for a smidge more combat res in your general's unit (well, a bit more actually: it's now a 6x6 unit with two standards (BSB and norm) and five heroes in the front).

Beyond War Machine "Blot out the Sun" and "One mega-huge "SOD OFF 'UUMIES!" Big 'Un Unit" Orc Boy lists, there's not too much that'll be effective.

Minsc we have different views. And yours are more than mildly pessimistic in my view. Maybe your ability greatly exceeds mine tactically and I'm completely in the wrong but I view almost all these changes as excellent.

Oh and Black Orcs are awesome if used properly

Hulksmash wrote:Maybe your ability greatly exceeds mine tactically and I'm completely in the wrong but I view almost all these changes as excellent.

For several armies, they're great yes. Orcs are at a drawback for four reasons:
1) Their combat troops meant to actually kill stuff in hand-to-hand have a 25mm front. That limits the effectiveness of the Horde rule as you have a 250mm front as opposed to the standard 200mm.
2) Their combat troops are mediocre. Not exactly crappy (See: Zombies) when put side-by-side with another army's core, and actually can be superior to some core, but they have nothing that can be classified as an Elite. This wouldn't be a problem, if elite troops couldn't maul non-Elite troops regardless of numbers.
3) They're only a 4+ save at best for their generic soldiers, and more often than not Orc troops are fielded in 6+ save formations. If they had a save to make up for a poor WS and so-so attack capability (Saurus, for example) then they'd be better, but they don't.
4) Initiative 2. On its own, this would be redeemable. With one of the above, it could be salvageable. So-so / poor statline + minimal / no save + striking last against all but Undead & Saurus = "Sweet Gork & Mork, my front ranks just vanished!"

Orcs have always been about characters getting the majority of the combat res wounds that tip the tide, the boyz simply getting enough to prevent the enemy from brutally slaughtering your troops on the charge or being charged. This new edition only further accentuates such, as the superior-stat opponent troops are going to be hitting your mobs with more and harder than they can in this edition. Well, assuming they can reach combat, there is after all going to be 5-10 plates of terrain on the table each game.

Hulksmash wrote:Oh and Black Orcs are awesome if used properly

I've never got them to function "awesome", mostly because they don't really specialize in anything other than "Stupid-high number of S5 attacks on charge", and that's mitigated by #1, #2, and #4. Oh, and they're expensive (140pts for 10, you need at least 18 for the unit to have some semblance of effectiveness, and you need some command). I might have higher opinions about them if I didn't wiff my Animosity & Waaagh! banner rolls (Ever see B-Orcs using both those in one turn fail to charge an enemy unit 12" away? Want to?), but even so they just don't offer much: They can either be HW&S (in which case they have a save, but are a single [meh] WS4 [big meh] S5 [good] attack on the first turn), HWx2 (in which case they have a 5+ save [big meh], WS4 [meh w/ A2 now] S5 [good] and A2... that isn't going to go in initiative order), or GW (which is no save, single WS4 S6 attack). They just can't do much of anything. If used in conjecture with other units they're more effective, but even so you pretty much need to do BOrc on front + BOrcs on flank to get the most out of them (and that happens rarely).

Basically, you look at other army's special units and you see a big gain in stats. You look at BOrcs, you see... +1 to their save, +1 Leadership (most O&G armies are hugging their general anyways) and don't test Animosity (which doesn't matter much as most units worth shoving into the fray are lead by a BOrc or are Goblins anyways). That's it. It's an improvement at a minor point increase, yeah, but it's nothing like the jump from HE Spearman to Swordmaster, or Dwarf Warrior to Hammerers, or Marauders to Chaos Warriors, or Saurus v Templeguard. You just gain too little.

O&G are at a disadvantage as they were written in 7th Edition when they were meant to sit on even terms with late 6th Edition lists (which even then they had some trouble). 8th Edition is basically going to be rounding out (making a parity) for late 7th lists, which Orcs already can barely compete with exploiting rules that are still more disadvantageous to the cheesey lists than advantageous (Warriors of Chaos suffer more penalties to armor, Black Guard can't fight in two ranks, etc).

One thing that hasnt been brought up.. Some of the older books have units that up Hero and lord slots, or lord and rare slots.. I wonder how percentages work with that?

Being not too up on Fantasy I like the idea of some of these "rumored" rules and I'm interested to see how they'll fit in with everything else.

That being said I never liked the whole "Line up and shoot at stuff, move your stuff in some complex geometric dance and then charge, break the enemy and hope his army runs off the board". The focus on Objectives and only Core units being able to score/hold sounds like a direction for Fantasy that seems more fun and intuitive rather than reenacting the Revolutionary War every game where x army represents the US and Y army represents the Redcoats.

It might even get my friends interested. I'm hoping the starter box is priced around the same as the current BFSP.

@Kirasu
I'm guessing they will errata all those.

If they want people using them as a general/character then they'll only fall in that category.

Fateweaver wrote:only Core units being able to score/hold sounds like a direction for Fantasy that seems more fun and intuitive

Actually, if it is only core, (Current rumors point towards units with a banner), then it is not more intuitive, it is rather hamfisted and gamey same as the 40k Troops only scoring is.

@skyth: I'd expect Fantasy to require bricks with flags to be Scoring.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@skyth: I'd expect Fantasy to require bricks with flags to be Scoring.

I'd expect all of three books before individual lists have non-Core models that are allowed to capture things anyways. Probably only six or seven until almost a whole army is given the capability.

Minsc wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@skyth: I'd expect Fantasy to require bricks with flags to be Scoring.

I'd expect all of three books before individual lists have non-Core models that are allowed to capture things anyways. Probably only six or seven until almost a whole army is given the capability.

I expect that the requirement will be non-skirmisher and a Standard. Not that the unit be core. But it's just a guess.

Having the standard be a requirement doesn't make much sense in light of other rumors. If they are going to a scenario based as opposed to VP based victory conditions, there is no real reason not to take a standard.

It does limit the number of scoring units though. And, with capturing of standards, they can limit it even further.

Even better, no flag = no contest.

Instead of Killpoints it's Flagpoints?

Minsc wrote:

List B: If 50% special 25% rare, 5 Doom Diver Catapults, 14 Bolt Throwers, 5 Rock Lobbers,

Ridiculous things like this is why the rumour that slots remain in the Percentage system makes more sense.

Otherwise, it's not fixing ANYTHING, because you can squeeze in 37 Warlock Engineers(or 8 Lvl 1 Engineers) into a 2250 List.

I can see them keeping a maximum # of choices + percentages because the # of choices per point level is already printed in each book

Then all they have to do is put in the rulebook "This is also the cap"

Maybe you can return enemy standards to your base! first person to 3 wins

Kirasu wrote:I can see them keeping a maximum # of choices + percentages because the # of choices per point level is already printed in each book

Then all they have to do is put in the rulebook "This is also the cap"

Maybe you can return enemy standards to your base! first person to 3 wins

To be honest, that would be terrible for fantasy... besides slow moving (especially when march blocked). The use of magic/shooting armies would be terrible and cause games such as these to take for ever... They would actually have to go try to kill the opposing army (and probably fail) or sit back which means it will take forever for the other army to reach them then walk all the way back...

Someone needs to play more FPS games to get the joke!

I'll copy it over in full later, but the rumours I added to the sticky today:

There *may* be something to prevent spamming...

The first rumour about this;

Special Choices: No more than 3 of the same type - Examples; No more than 3 units of Chaos Knights, or 3 units of Forsaken etc in the same army.

Rare Choices: No more than 2 of the same type - Examples; No more than 2 Hellcannons, or 2 Chaos Giants etc in the same army.


There will be no CR bonus for Outnumbering the enemy.

ASF + higher initiative than your enemy: Reroll to hit rolls. (note: imo this is a direct 'fix' for the swordmasters and white lions)

Warmachines: There'll be no guessing anymore. You place the template (or point of impact) where you want the weapon to hit and roll normally for scatter.