Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@Karon

Most of the posted rumors have been confirmed by people who have an amazing track record. But I agree that most of the rumored rules changes do point to entirely different way to play. It's a lot like what they did with 5th edition 40k. It's not a 100% reboot like 40k 3rd or Fantasy 6th but it's going to be a much bigger change than 7th was.

I'm personally super excited about the changes and can't wait until the new rules come out. Especially since they seem to heavily favor armies I play (dwarves and ogres). Now I'd be excited anyway but the idea of Dwarves being able to brawl because 2/3 of the time you need to get them off an objective is amazing!

@Hulksmash
In terms of my sticky, only some of the rumours have been confirmed by people who have an amazing track record.

I have had to go much further afield than I would normally do for sources, because the information is so contradictory.

I'm excited for my Dwarves as well. Could make fighty dwarves work! That'd be great.
I would hope that the new guess stuff would always scatter though, possibly 2D6-BS or something. Getting a direct hit 1/3 of the time would be mental!

From first post:

Heavy cavalry - Avian says this is possibly speculation
# [*]- Rumoured to be something like this:
All infantry and cavalry models (i.e. smaller than ogre sized) with a passive non-magical save of 3+ or better cannot march move. I.e. heavy armour and shield would allow you to march, as the +1 HW & shield is only in combat.

Brettonians and Dwarfs will be exempt

I hope this is rubbish.
Otherwise most heavy cav will be slower than infantry units and chaos warriors will be absolutely rubbish.

I'm still liking WEs.
Multiple units of 20 Glade guard in 2 ranks (10 wide) so all can shoot and they are stubborn Ld8.
Every army I look at that has a bow type weapon ends up with me making lists with 100-160 archers in it at 2000 points. I hope there will be some caveat to this shoot in 2 ranks..

Not like stubborn matters for shooty units.. If someone charges you you're prob dead anyway

@Grimstone

True, But the ones that have been confirmed are the ones that make the biggest difference for my dwarves and are the changes I'm looking most forward to

@Waaagh

If they take away the -1" for barding they'll be the same speed as the infantry. Which actually makes sense since all that weight would blow the horses out extremely fast. But I'd take it worth a grain of salt until we actually see it since it would hurt to many armies out there. Heck even Cold One Knights would be moving at a crawl (LM or DE). And it would be just silly that DE's are 33% faster on foot than mounted.

Kirasu wrote:Not like stubborn matters for shooty units.. If someone charges you you're prob dead anyway

Dwarves and Orcs at T4 would like to have a word with you For a lot, however, I'd concur. T3, often lacking any sort of save (another Dwarf advantage - 4+ save potential), rarely above Ld8, and so on.

Once more, rumors are really supporting Orc gunline. However, now they really dis-support 50+ big blocks of troops: I'm fine enough with luck Plague Catapults hitting 24+ models in a single shot. Having multiple be able to slap on a direct hit for maximized models before scatter is just going to turn a 50 big block into a casualty sink. Now, 8+ War Machines at 2K points, that's harder to counter.

Also, I'm going to have to check my army book, but I might have found a really good thing for Orcs: The Spirit Totem - if I don't recall wrong - is "+1 Dispel Dice per rank". Without the "Up to a maximum of +3" clause that the Pig Stikka has. And only requires an Orc to be carrying it, not an Orc unit.

Hello, 150pt Night Goblin unit for +9 Dispel Dice.

Hulksmash wrote:@Karon

Most of the posted rumors have been confirmed by people who have an amazing track record. But I agree that most of the rumored rules changes do point to entirely different way to play. It's a lot like what they did with 5th edition 40k. It's not a 100% reboot like 40k 3rd or Fantasy 6th but it's going to be a much bigger change than 7th was.

I'm personally super excited about the changes and can't wait until the new rules come out. Especially since they seem to heavily favor armies I play (dwarves and ogres). Now I'd be excited anyway but the idea of Dwarves being able to brawl because 2/3 of the time you need to get them off an objective is amazing!

No, what I posted was a response to this.

Im not sure if this was posted yet, but the managers received a sheet of some definite rules changes when they were in Vegas. My local store manager was nice enough to show it to me.

There are now infinite rank bonus' and some type of modifier or bonus for having over 50 models or unit strength of 50.
Swords fight in 2 ranks, 3 ranks with spears.
Great weapons are still 1 rank.
If a large unit panics, ie. 30 Orcs, they panic all smaller units within 18 inches.
BUT if your general is withing 12 inches you are immune to panic.
They are also going to a Lords of the Ring style charge.

Not sure if these have been posted but just thought i should share.

So basically, patrickparker came on, spewed so me bs for us to rage about

The last time they did a full reset they needed to reset all of the army lists.

I cannot workout how they are going to balance it all with such extensive changes.

They did a fine job with 5th edition 40k which had just as extensive of changes overall and didn't have to redo all the codexes. It's not a full reset. It's a overhaul which is different. The framework will still be the same. Certain rules within those same parameters will change. And heres to hoping they get it right like they did with 5th 40k.

Assuming Skaven and Beasts were written with 8th in mind (or at least they better had been!), I expect the main races (Empire, High Elves, Orcs, Dwarves) will get updates relatively quickly.

That said, it's not that straightforward as recent Dakka polls show that players are quite evenly split in Fantasy. You could therefore argue that there are no major races in Fantasy (just ones that are an easy "sell" to beginners).

I'm quite happy to roll with all the changes anyway. We'll call this edition Crazy Hammer

Hulksmash wrote:They did a fine job with 5th edition 40k which had just as extensive of changes overall and didn't have to redo all the codexes. It's not a full reset. It's a overhaul which is different. The framework will still be the same. Certain rules within those same parameters will change. And heres to hoping they get it right like they did with 5th 40k.

See, that's just wrong. Even as a relative on-40k player, I can tell that 5E boned some codices - I hear it in my local store all the time. And 5E did NOT have as extensive a change as these rumors suggest - the framework was the same and they changed a few things, and threw in some new scenarios to force list balancing, but the FOC remained the same and the method for fighting combat remained the same.

These rumors are changing how we're allowed to build lists (not done of 40k), how the movement phase works (not done for 40k), how the maic phase works (not done for 40k, though the psychic rules are a little easy in my opinion), and how combat plays out (combat resolution was tweaked, but the actual rules were largely the same). This is FAR more drastic.

And yes, they DO have to redo all the books. Too many books are so ridiculously oudated that some border on unplayble. If most of these rumors are true, I expect to see something along the lines of Ravening Hordes released alongside the new rulebook, as certain armies will move into the realm of unplayble.

If the goal is to rebalance the books, then they succeeded: some new armies will move into the "suck" (VC) tier, while new armies will move into the "why AREN'T you playing them?!" (Empire) tier.

And yes, they DO have to redo all the books. Too many books are so ridiculously oudated that some border on unplayble. If most of these rumors are true, I expect to see something along the lines of Ravening Hordes released alongside the new rulebook, as certain armies will move into the realm of unplayble.

If the goal is to rebalance the books, then they succeeded: some new armies will move into the "suck" (VC) tier, while new armies will move into the "why AREN'T you playing them?!" (Empire) tier.

Only really answer to that is..

and...?

This only happens every time ANYTHING is changed with 40k or fantasy.. Its not like its anything new and its pretty much the same throughout the world with actual real events as well.. Most things in life fall between the average amounts, some are at the highest point and some at the lowests points

This is not new and will never change.. Just yeah it sucks to be the guy at the lowest point

@Manfredd

There were a lot of changes that were added to the basic framework of 40k in 5th. It was a massive change to the way the game played and was played. The fact that it was more subtle doesn't change the fact that 5th edition plays like a new game. You can ask most of the big 40k guys and they'll tell you the same thing.

And to be fair, fantasy needs this much more than 4th edition 40k did. And yea, Kirasu said it best. There is always gonna be a totem pole. But at least in 40k there is only really 1 army at the bottom cough::necrons::cough. As opposed to only having 3 power army books like fantasy.

Kirasu wrote:Only really answer to that is..

and...?

Some armies now literally cannot play a game under certain point levels (Bretonnia and Tomb Kings the most heavily hit, with their need to have two characters and the fact that said characters fielded naked are no-where near as effective as something such as a naked Exalted Champion in WHFB or a naked Necron Lord in 40K). Furthermore, "Rules change" doesn't seem like an entirely valid counter to complaints about armies being made difficult / impossible to play. It's a good counter to asking why they have to change, but when it comes to countering why someone's upset it's about as good as being told off in an argument "Because I say so."

Kirasu wrote:This is not new and will never change.. Just yeah it sucks to be the guy at the lowest point

Debatably: Empire's at one of the lower points ATM (for non-Lector & Stank armies anyways), and they're going to absolutely love the "no partial" and "no guess" rumors. Similarly, Vampire Counts are one of the higher point armies and it's really not going to enjoy losing 1-2 characters in addition to harsher magic and a (potential) shift to less efficient infantry.

Hulksmash wrote:There were a lot of changes that were added to the basic framework of 40k in 5th.

I think his point was more related to the fact that shooting phase was the most heavily (though, to be fair, appears to be more modified than any one phase in WHFB) modified of 40K, with the assault and move phases relatively untouched. WHFB, all phases are being hit and most of them hard. Movement phase starts with a 'small' change of moving from double-move to D6's for charge range. It then gets modified more from there when some units are restricted from marching, reform rules are being changed in a way that seemingly negates the use of Fast Cavalry (free reform), modifiers are being applied due to equipment that didn't apply such before (re-roll charge D6's, additional movement, greater reform capabilities).

Next comes magic, which is changing in how dice are generated, how spells are cast, how miscasts are acquired, how irresistible force interacts with the table, and - possibly - even how spell generation is done.

Shooting starts small for regular troops: Less modifiers to armor (little impact for most non-S4 shooters), and firing in two ranks with bows. Then War Machines come, however, and they are changed a lot. No more guessing, no more partials. Those two rules, though sounding like little, are big for anyone who has ever either seen a stone thrower land dead-on with a lucky guess into the center of one's formation, or if they've been the one to launch said stone into the center of someone's formation. However, for the most part, this is the least changed rule.

Finally comes the combat phase, which is easily arguable as a peer to 40K's shooting phase when it comes to changes. Combat resolution has been changed around a lot, some bonuses completely removed while others are either brand new or modified to be more or less effective. "Chargers strike first" has been negated with initiative order the rule of the day, which similarly changes Great Weapons from "Go first on charge, last otherwise" to "last at all times". Units are fighting in deeper ranks with more attacks being thrown out and new close-combat weapon rules. Width now influences not only how many guys are fighting in base-to-base, but also whether you get even more attacks from a ten wide front as well as potentially giving your unit the rule of stubborn - a rule that can turn any combat that doesn't involve a flanking action into one gigantic meat grinder until either you break the enemy or they manage to take you down to a smaller front than them. This has been barring stuff such as changes to what counts as a unit frontage, removal of unit strength, and so on.

While you can make some comparisons to what happened in 40K, those were more "isolated" in what phases they applied to. WHFB, not so much.

I'm hanging for what they are going to do to chariots, because they are going to get smashed with the new combat res and deeper ranks rules.
Unless you will be required to combo chargemultiple chariots or charge alongside ranked units. Stegadons will also fall into that category.

On deep thought whilst running I'm now all for the deeper ranks of fighting so that at least you do get to fight back.
Using an otherwise unmodified combat system I think it would have great potential.

Minsc wrote:] Some armies now literally cannot play a game under certain point levels (Bretonnia and Tomb Kings the most heavily hit, with their need to have two characters and the fact that said characters fielded naked are no-where near as effective as something such as a naked Exalted Champion in WHFB or a naked Necron Lord in 40K).

Meh!

There are always gonna be issues when the core rules change. As far as the army list go, these are very minor problems. Would you prefer ALL army books were invalidated, or that 2 of the oldest lists (both Bretonians and Tomb Kings were written for 6th ed) have glitches that will rarely be relevant and are easily corrected by an errata or house rule? Are games of under 860 points (or 480 for Brets) so very enshrined in your gaming group that you can't bump the points up to an even thousand (or 500 for brets) to accommodate your friends army?

Tomb Kings are already unplayable under virtually any points limit.. Not much is changing with them, moving on

Brettonians use an outdated book anyway and are very very very one dimensional.. Cant imagine theyre a very fun army to play given I can almost close my eyes and know the set up a bretonnian player is going to do and the list hes going to play before i see it

Kirasu wrote:Brettonians use an outdated book anyway and are very very very one dimensional.. Cant imagine theyre a very fun army to play given I can almost close my eyes and know the set up a bretonnian player is going to do and the list hes going to play before i see it

And they're also very good, quite a few at my LGS cleaning up ... If they're still able to march we might be seeing even more I'd reckon, but at least stacked armor & ward saves won't be happening

On the 25% character front, I spent some time today running through my builds and seeing how badly the drop from ~33% (where my lists are at) to 25% is. In short: not great. Basically looking at lord + bsb OR support caster, which is a choice I'm not in love with, particularly in my level 4 led builds.

- Salvage

Boss_Salvage wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Brettonians use an outdated book anyway and are very very very one dimensional.. Cant imagine theyre a very fun army to play given I can almost close my eyes and know the set up a bretonnian player is going to do and the list hes going to play before i see it

And they're also very good, quite a few at my LGS cleaning up ... If they're still able to march we might be seeing even more I'd reckon, but at least stacked armor & ward saves won't be happening

On the 25% character front, I spent some time today running through my builds and seeing how badly the drop from ~33% (where my lists are at) to 25% is. In short: not great. Basically looking at lord + bsb OR support caster, which is a choice I'm not in love with, particularly in my level 4 led builds.

- Salvage

I threw together an Empire list using the proposed percentages, and even factored in the speculated 'anti-spam' method, using 2000 points:

Count - 206
Full Plate, Shield, Barded Warhorse, Sword of Sigismund, Holy Relic

Battle Wizard - 115
2 Dispell Scrolls

Master Engineer - 85
Hochland Long Rifle

Master Engineer - 85
Hochland Long Rifle

Swordsmen - 194
x24, Full Command, War Banner
-10 Free Company (50)
-10 Free Company (50)

Handgunners - 110
Musician, Marksman with HLR

Handgunners - 110
Musician, Marksman with HLR

Pistoliers - 168
x8, Musician, Marksman with Repeater Pistol

Mortar - 75
Mortar - 75
Mortar - 75

Cannon - 100
Cannon - 100
Cannon - 100

Steam Tank - 300

There's a gunline I wouldn't want to mess with.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Pistoliers - 168
x8, Musician, Marksman with Repeater Pistol

Mortar - 75
Mortar - 75
Mortar - 75

Cannon - 100
Cannon - 100
Cannon - 100

*vomits in mouth a little bit*

Aren't all of those special choices? So you figuring on slot limitations falling, to be replaced with just max percentage?

But point taken on Empire's nastiness. It seems like those mid-to-low tier armies that don't really rely on characters (and have guns) could be looking to win out. Oh, also dark elves. I hope I haven't launched into this on Dakka yet, but what rumored change actually hurts DE? Like, in a way that matters? My favorite 'boost' that I realized today - seriously, I find a new one with every batch of rumors - was the non-hero assassins being utterly unaffected. I suppose they can't kill entire units now by themselves, if the unit has ranks and is stubborn

- Salvage

Boss_Salvage wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Brettonians use an outdated book anyway and are very very very one dimensional.. Cant imagine theyre a very fun army to play given I can almost close my eyes and know the set up a bretonnian player is going to do and the list hes going to play before i see it

And they're also very good, quite a few at my LGS cleaning up ... If they're still able to march we might be seeing even more I'd reckon, but at least stacked armor & ward saves won't be happening

On the 25% character front, I spent some time today running through my builds and seeing how badly the drop from ~33% (where my lists are at) to 25% is. In short: not great. Basically looking at lord + bsb OR support caster, which is a choice I'm not in love with, particularly in my level 4 led builds.

- Salvage

Exactly what I saw in my beastmen list, but I figured it out pretty well. Of course, beastmen are a bit easier since we have cheaper gak.

It is hard to get all the goodies, though.

Yeah, I figured that 'slots' would go away - having slots AND percentages seems a little over the top.

but what rumored change actually hurts DE? Like, in a way that matters?

Same rules as above:

Dreadlord - 282
Cold One, Halberd, SDC, Potion of Strength, Pendant of Khaleth, Armor of Eternal Servitude

Master - 214
BSB, Cold One, Lance, HA, Shield, SDC, Hydra Banner

Dark Riders - 117
x5, Musician, RXBs

Dark Riders - 117
x5, Musician, RXBs

Dark Riders - 117
x5, Musician, RXBs

Dark Riders - 117
x5, Musician, RXBs

Harpies - 55
x5

Cold One Knights - 235
x5, Full Command, Ring of Hotek, Banner of Hag Graef

Cold One Chariot - 100

Cold One Chariot - 100

Shades - 90
x5, Great Weapons

War Hydra - 175

War Hydra - 175

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100

Like, in a way that matters?

I guess not.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Yeah, I figured that 'slots' would go away - having slots AND percentages seems a little over the top.

No, it doesn't.

Being able to field 9+ Specials(or 15+ characters in the case of Skaven and Gobbos) because you happen to get low cost ones is what's over the top.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

I threw together an Empire list using the proposed percentages, and even factored in the speculated 'anti-spam' method, using 2000 points:

Count - 206
Full Plate, Shield, Barded Warhorse, Sword of Sigismund, Holy Relic

Battle Wizard - 115
2 Dispell Scrolls

Master Engineer - 85
Hochland Long Rifle

Master Engineer - 85
Hochland Long Rifle

Swordsmen - 194
x24, Full Command, War Banner
-10 Free Company (50)
-10 Free Company (50)

Handgunners - 110
Musician, Marksman with HLR

Handgunners - 110
Musician, Marksman with HLR

Pistoliers - 168
x8, Musician, Marksman with Repeater Pistol

Mortar - 75
Mortar - 75
Mortar - 75

Cannon - 100
Cannon - 100
Cannon - 100

Steam Tank - 300

There's a gunline I wouldn't want to mess with.

I would trade out the tank for two Hellstorm Rocket Batteries. If the rumor that there are no more scatters is true those things just got broken.

Karon wrote:

Im not sure if this was posted yet, but the managers received a sheet of some definite rules changes when they were in Vegas. My local store manager was nice enough to show it to me.

There are now infinite rank bonus' and some type of modifier or bonus for having over 50 models or unit strength of 50.
Swords fight in 2 ranks, 3 ranks with spears.
Great weapons are still 1 rank.
If a large unit panics, ie. 30 Orcs, they panic all smaller units within 18 inches.
BUT if your general is withing 12 inches you are immune to panic.
They are also going to a Lords of the Ring style charge.

Not sure if these have been posted but just thought i should share.

So basically, patrickparker came on, spewed so me bs for us to rage about

This is a News and Rumors section so I was just informing you all of what I saw, it could of just been a sheet to sort out the rotten apples in gw. Besides most of these rumors where posted already, except for the Panic change, but we will all see when the rules come out.

You said definite rule changes, sir.

That's not a rumor, and you lead us on that all of that was true. (We thought they we're rumors, as we now know they still are.

Not saying anything against you (though it does look like I did in my post, apologies. I'm just saying, that those aren't definite, since if they really wanted people to know, they would have handed them out to all store owners, not one token store.

Platuan4th wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Yeah, I figured that 'slots' would go away - having slots AND percentages seems a little over the top.

No, it doesn't.

Being able to field 9+ Specials(or 15+ characters in the case of Skaven and Gobbos) because you happen to get low cost ones is what's over the top.

Goblin heroes are WS4, S4, T4, I3, and Ld7. For many armies, if you removed a wound and one point from any other stat (weapon skill, initiative, toughness, or strength) from them people would be going "Oh hey, it's a rank & file". In some army's cases (Chaos Warriors, Daemons, Dwarves), they're still inferior with only the wound lost (if even only then).

There's a reason that in the old O&G book you could take an extra big-boss for every 1000pts if they were all Goblins: You can pretty handily counter them with most army's unit champions and be on even footing.

Yeah.

R&F Warlock Engineers.

The sky is starting to fall...

Yeah, force org. caps will stay. No doubt about it. They wouldn't just invalidate that one page in everyone's armybook.

@Minsc

You probably dont' play much 40k but the changes weren't minor in any phase. Let alone how parts of the game (read units not phases) work. But back to fantasy.

Anyone who is crying about the no guessing artillery paused to consider that the toning down of armor save modifiers could apply to these as well? The no armor save portion of stonethrowers/bolt throwers/and cannons are generally found in the main rulebook. Meaning that it's probably changing as well.

Just another food for thought.