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Made in lt
Longtime Dakkanaut






So we just calculated (wee haven't received this message yet and we really hope we won't receive it, as this still could be regional). Right now, if we sell a start collecting that costs 120 euros with 20% discount, we earn 14 euros after tax. If this comes info effect, we will earn whopping +-6 euros This might not seem a lot at first glance, but let's say someone would sell stuff for 12'000 euros. That would mean a profit of 1400. After this - 600 euros

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/01 21:31:13


   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

There's no one simplification that covers all people.


Correct, there is not.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

There's gamers who complain about the prices and keep buying.
There's gamers who complain about the prices and stopped buying from GW but kept buying from discounters.
There's gamers who complain about the prices and stopped buying new but kept buying used.
There's gamers who complain about the prices and moved to different games or even completely different hobbies.
There's gamers who complain about the prices and left entirely.
There's also newer people who haven't been around long enough to experience the Kirby years and the LotR bubble and whatever.


All rational subcategories.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

You might fall into one of those categories, but survivorship bias just means there's a segment of the people that you're missing since they're no longer present to count.


And your point of failure is in the conclusion. Survivorship bias is due to survivors normally having a similar story and non survivors not being around to say otherwise. So bomber crews that returned from mission could tell their superiors what saved them, and that can be statistically analysed for future design, however shot down bomber crews cannot testify what killed them.
You have skewing of testimony from survivor bias..

However GW customers who do not fall into the survivor category, which presumable is the one that still goes to GW store, are not dead or sitting out the duration in a Stalag. There is no survivor base for bias because there is no lobsided testimony.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Personally, I didn't buy anything from GW for years, and was maybe only slightly active in the online community and not at all in the local community... but GW coaxed me back somewhat with specialist games where the prices and massive amount of building and painting armies is somewhat mitigated versus WHFB/AOS/40k.

Everyone has their own story that might be unique or shared, trying to figure out how that feeds into revenue, it's always going to be a massive oversimplification unless you could somehow gather a lot of data, including data on people who are no longer active in the community.


Case in point. You do not fall into a narrow category divide of 'survivor' and your testimony and thus statistical data if compilable if GW chose to ask.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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Deadly Tomb Guard





Florida

 CragHack wrote:
So we just calculated (wee haven't received this message yet and we really hope we won't receive it, as this still could be regional). Right now, if we sell a start collecting that costs 120 euros with 20% discount, we earn 14 euros after tax. If this comes info effect, we will earn whopping +-6 euros This might not seem a lot at first glance, but let's say someone would sell stuff for 12'000 euros. That would mean a profit of 1400. After this - 600 euros


This is it, exactly. economies of scale. individual box sales don't matter near as much as volume, and GW are stepping on retailers ability to make those volume sales.

someone being introduced to the hobby and buying a single start collecting and some paints, because GW stuff (for bigger or bundle items) are usually in the $100-200 range.

in base sales.

take, for example, a 45% margin (generally an industry standard. most manufacturers offer between 40-50% off for independents.)

for ease of example, 45% of $100 is $45.

take out shipping costs i ate to get that product to my store.

take out 15% MAP discount

take out time and effort for advertising to sell that product.

I'm now sub $30 on end profit from the sale.

unless sold in volume, miniatures do not pay the bills.

McDougall Designs Wargaming Retailer

McDougall Designs Dakka News thread.

McDougall Designs Facebook page

I am an Authorized Retailer of Wargames Atlantic and Mantic games, and carry shieldwolf and fireforge (among others) from distributors. 
   
Made in us
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 privateer4hire wrote:
Sure. It’s just hyperbole. Different situation back then with some real competition for them at the time. Competition like privateer press that’s essentially negligible nowadays. And x-wing first edition was doing really well. But not so much with the new edition.

And GW makes self aware jokes now. Has social media engagement to at least a minimal level. And they gave people plastic sisters. And squats are back! Along with blood bowl, necrominda and the old world is waiting in the wings.
One might say they have changed a great deal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CragHack wrote:
So we just calculated (wee haven't received this message yet and we really hope we won't receive it, as this still could be regional). Right now, if we sell a start collecting that costs 120 euros with 20% discount, we earn 14 euros after tax. If this comes info effect, we will earn whopping +-6 euros This might not seem a lot at first glance, but let's say someone would sell stuff for 12'000 euros. That would mean a profit of 1400. After this - 600 euros
What takes reducing the discount off the table? Surely others would be in the same boat? (Not rhetorical, to be clear.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/12/01 23:18:19


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Tacoma, WA, USA

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
So we just calculated (wee haven't received this message yet and we really hope we won't receive it, as this still could be regional). Right now, if we sell a start collecting that costs 120 euros with 20% discount, we earn 14 euros after tax. If this comes info effect, we will earn whopping +-6 euros This might not seem a lot at first glance, but let's say someone would sell stuff for 12'000 euros. That would mean a profit of 1400. After this - 600 euros
What takes reducing the discount off the table? Surely others would be in the same boat? (Not rhetorical, to be clear.)
Exactly, if the 20% discount becomes a 15% discount, your price to the customer goes up 6 Euros. That makes your profit 12 Euros instead of 6. A little less than when the product was cheaper and you made 14 Euros, but not the end of the world.
   
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SoCal

And then the customers still buying from you.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 oni wrote:
@Gert: It's been my experience and the experience of a lot of people I know that Warhammer stores (official GW stores) foster a narrative / non-competitive community as their in-store policies tend to push things in this direction. Generally, by limiting game size, time duration and having a strong awareness of new and unexperienced players. Warhammer store events tend to be things like Mega-battles to promote community and escalation leagues to boost sales - both of which are rather non-competitive.

My point being, if the Warhammer stores are flooded with people, but the LGS's are empty, it's likely because players are flocking to and can expect to enjoy themselves more in the Warhammer stores non-competitive environment.

Ok to counter you, the city I live in has a fair few gaming shops. Not all of them foster 40k and of the two I have frequented (pre-Covid) only one liked the idea of us doing 40k there consistently. The first has lots of gaming nights and a few people I still chat with note that it is full on 40k nights. As for the other, it's had some rough times both pre and post lockdowns and it seems that they only open their doors to prebooked sessions (which you can only do via Discord which I CBA with) or in-store events that heavily focus on Flames of War, Team Yankee, or X-Wing.
So if both the GW store and larger LGS are full all the time and the other I used to go to never really built a 40k community (blaming the GW half a mile away which was weird), I fail to see how competitive play is killing the game.

My point was regarding if there was actual data to support the claim that a focus on competitive players was actually having an effect. Anecdotes are all well and good but the same group of people on Dakka saying the same stuff every single thread about GW isn't what I would call accurate data gathering.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Sounds like GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


So let me get this straight - not only are they banning games being played in their official stores....but they are trying to shut down all the other game stores where people can play 40k as well?

Brilliant.

So where do people play, especially new players? Is WH supposed to only be plàyed at homes, like it's a dirty little secret?

It makes no sense. It's like a Dungeons and Dragons store where you can't play Dungeons and Dragons or a library that bans reading actual books.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/12/02 05:57:29


 
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

you are not supposed to play the game, the game is just an excuse to buy models
hence it does not matter how good the game itself is, or if there is a possibility to play it in public
people need a reason to buy an army and "it looks cool as display" is not enough for most people (and if you want something to display a larger scale or actual dioramas are the better option)

so not being able to actual play is not a big problem for GW as long as the illusion that you may play the game once in future exists (and for those that really want to play, events/tournaments exist hence why 40k is so popular as tournament game, for a lot of people it is the only option to actually play the game)

PS: she also made a video about that: https://youtu.be/uafCk6vx_6U


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 alextroy wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
So we just calculated (wee haven't received this message yet and we really hope we won't receive it, as this still could be regional). Right now, if we sell a start collecting that costs 120 euros with 20% discount, we earn 14 euros after tax. If this comes info effect, we will earn whopping +-6 euros This might not seem a lot at first glance, but let's say someone would sell stuff for 12'000 euros. That would mean a profit of 1400. After this - 600 euros
What takes reducing the discount off the table? Surely others would be in the same boat? (Not rhetorical, to be clear.)
Exactly, if the 20% discount becomes a 15% discount, your price to the customer goes up 6 Euros. That makes your profit 12 Euros instead of 6. A little less than when the product was cheaper and you made 14 Euros, but not the end of the world.


one point is that stuff might get too expensive for people to buy
there is a breaking point when something is too much, and for a lot of GW products, the 20% are already "does not look that bad any more" rather than "really good deal", so 15% off instead of 20% might already result in less sales which makes it worse

another point is, the 12€ are income not net-profit, you still have to cover your own costs and make a living, so 2€ short of a box combined with less overall sales because of the higher price could already break your buisness

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/02 07:08:56


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Deadly Tomb Guard





Florida

 kodos wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
So we just calculated (wee haven't received this message yet and we really hope we won't receive it, as this still could be regional). Right now, if we sell a start collecting that costs 120 euros with 20% discount, we earn 14 euros after tax. If this comes info effect, we will earn whopping +-6 euros This might not seem a lot at first glance, but let's say someone would sell stuff for 12'000 euros. That would mean a profit of 1400. After this - 600 euros
What takes reducing the discount off the table? Surely others would be in the same boat? (Not rhetorical, to be clear.)
Exactly, if the 20% discount becomes a 15% discount, your price to the customer goes up 6 Euros. That makes your profit 12 Euros instead of 6. A little less than when the product was cheaper and you made 14 Euros, but not the end of the world.


one point is that stuff might get too expensive for people to buy
there is a breaking point when something is too much, and for a lot of GW products, the 20% are already "does not look that bad any more" rather than "really good deal", so 15% off instead of 20% might already result in less sales which makes it worse

another point is, the 12€ are income not net-profit, you still have to cover your own costs and make a living, so 2€ short of a box combined with less overall sales because of the higher price could already break your buisness


Bingo.

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I am an Authorized Retailer of Wargames Atlantic and Mantic games, and carry shieldwolf and fireforge (among others) from distributors. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




i really think this will effect Europe more so then the USA. In USA we pay inflated GW tax and GW only lets online discounters advertise at 15%. Europe pays about 30 some percent less and can take an additional 20-25% off from online vendors. I honestly don't think it will change much for the US.
   
Made in fi
Calculating Commissar







 kodos wrote:
you are not supposed to play the game, the game is just an excuse to buy models
hence it does not matter how good the game itself is, or if there is a possibility to play it in public
people need a reason to buy an army and "it looks cool as display" is not enough for most people (and if you want something to display a larger scale or actual dioramas are the better option)

so not being able to actual play is not a big problem for GW as long as the illusion that you may play the game once in future exists (and for those that really want to play, events/tournaments exist hence why 40k is so popular as tournament game, for a lot of people it is the only option to actually play the game)

PS: she also made a video about that: https://youtu.be/uafCk6vx_6U


I'm not surprised if far fewer people than you'd think play with their armies regularly, or at all. The game takes a lot of space to play, requires a lot of terrain that's either expensive to buy or time-intensive to build (and takes a lot of space to store in either case). Games last a long time to finish compared to board or video games, you can't "save" your progress overnight or into next week without cordoning off an entire 4x6 out of your living space, transporting your army to where the game is being played is an actual hassle sometimes and requires yet another purchase of a carrying case in many cases, etc.

And finally, and here's where it gets subjective, it's just not that fun. The game I play in my head before the start of the first turn is always superior to the actual sad affair with the dice, counters, objective markers, and constant need to refer back to page 87 for the precise wording of the Armour of Contempt rule. The best memories I have from around the gaming table tend to have more to do with the people I met or stupid jokes we shared than they do with the actual who-won and who-lost of it. Or, and here's an interesting thing: they're about other people's games. When you don't have to engage with the preparations and accompanying faff of the whole exercise, it's easier to get swept away with the, for lack of a better word, pageantry of it. This is why demos and convention games are so insidious and why you should never decide to pick up a game because of them: They're offering you a taste of the end result while hiding the steps you will need to take if you wish to repeat that experience.

The supply does not get to make the demands. 
   
Made in gb
Using Object Source Lighting







People play it though and thats why GW has been so willingly churning in rules updates on top of updates etc Votann had what, 2 updates already?
Tournaments datas etc I think GW is more on top of this than I ever remember. I would rather prefer if they let things stay quiet for longer than a few weeks
People will not have the patience to keep it up for a long time before they give up on this insane updates train.

Will the squeeze affect stores and gaming tables? Probably some more than others, if margins not that great they need to diversify to stay alive. Food, painting workshops and comps, killteams and other smaller games, skirmish armies rental and so on and on, still 40k orientated but just not the typical 2000pts

I like demo games because sometimes a small taste is all you want.

   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Orlanth wrote:
However GW customers who do not fall into the survivor category, which presumable is the one that still goes to GW store, are not dead or sitting out the duration in a Stalag. There is no survivor base for bias because there is no lobsided testimony.

The lobsided conclusion is "people complain about GW prices, but they keep buying".

Some people do, and some people don't, and don't to the point that they're no longer involved in the community, it's the people who don't that don't get counted.

Hence, it biases the the assertion that people complain about GW prices but continue to buy. Not that those people don't exist, but the significance of those people versus the people that complained and are as such no longer part of the community is unknown.

Case in point. You do not fall into a narrow category divide of 'survivor' and your testimony and thus statistical data if compilable if GW chose to ask.


I do fall into the category of survivor, so does everyone on this forum. The non-survivors are the ones not on this forum, and not at a GW store, and who GW can't ask because they have no way of tracking them down and forcing them to answer questions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/02 11:11:43


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 kodos wrote:
PS: she also made a video about that: https://youtu.be/uafCk6vx_6U


I think the video makes an important point.

The game isn't the most important thing in the world in terms of buying minis. I have far too much 40k stuff that has never seen a table. (And can't really, unless we go full sandbox).
But because I play 40k, I have the illusion that maybe, one day, those random squads will be joined by others to make a "proper army". I could shelve my long in the tooth DE and play Orks, GSC, Tau or half a dozen other factions at a standard 2k points tournament. I'm planning out a new 1k points army for Christmas (still undecided though!) to play a friend who has been "collecting SoB" since their update 3 years ago but never played a game with them.

The idea that I "could" use those minis is important.

Whereas, if 40k was effectively dead as a game system, but you could buy the models - my motivation would disappear in an instant. I know this, because it's what happened with Warmahordes. When we had an active scene I had Cryx and Elves and Everblight and so on. I'd buy a new caster or something every few months even though a bunch of them never made it out of the clampack. And then it was over. And I don't think I've played, thought about, or bought a Warmahordes model since 2016 or something. It just died with 3rd edition (and 8th edition 40k was the final nail). I wasn't going to buy a load of crocodile men or whatever to just to sit in a box even if I thought the minis were cool.

So this is why I think GW does have to keep the game ticking over - and why the "outlook from the competitive scene" is important, even if it doesn't reflect was a huge percentage of their customers are doing.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Tyel wrote:

The idea that I "could" use those minis is important.



Age of Sigmar's launch also proved that this is the case for a significant portion of the buying market.
Plus, of course, we have to factor in that even without the "could" market, the actual playing market is hard to survey because not everyone games in groups/clubs/stores and that there's lots of home games which happen between perhaps only family members or even just two friends.

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Made in lt
Longtime Dakkanaut






Exactly. Our club generates money for rent from paid membership. Membership grants 20%. Quite a few people have membership just because it’s a deal for them to get the 20%. 15% might just make them look elsewhere and cancel their memberships all together. I mean, if this all increased trade price will apply to us. It just all boils down to how loyal/thinking people are. And people are people, gak happens. But overall, it’s still a fact that this is basically a dick move from GW.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Tyel wrote:
 kodos wrote:
PS: she also made a video about that: https://youtu.be/uafCk6vx_6U


I think the video makes an important point.

The game isn't the most important thing in the world in terms of buying minis. I have far too much 40k stuff that has never seen a table. (And can't really, unless we go full sandbox).
But because I play 40k, I have the illusion that maybe, one day, those random squads will be joined by others to make a "proper army". I could shelve my long in the tooth DE and play Orks, GSC, Tau or half a dozen other factions at a standard 2k points tournament. I'm planning out a new 1k points army for Christmas (still undecided though!) to play a friend who has been "collecting SoB" since their update 3 years ago but never played a game with them.

The idea that I "could" use those minis is important.

Whereas, if 40k was effectively dead as a game system, but you could buy the models - my motivation would disappear in an instant. I know this, because it's what happened with Warmahordes. When we had an active scene I had Cryx and Elves and Everblight and so on. I'd buy a new caster or something every few months even though a bunch of them never made it out of the clampack. And then it was over. And I don't think I've played, thought about, or bought a Warmahordes model since 2016 or something. It just died with 3rd edition (and 8th edition 40k was the final nail). I wasn't going to buy a load of crocodile men or whatever to just to sit in a box even if I thought the minis were cool.


I just don't understand this mentality, either paragraph of it.

1) So as long as you're playing a game you'll buy stuff you know you'll never actually use? But you won't won't buy the crocodile men (or whatever) that you like for a game you aren't playing....
???

2) So you had a community who enjoyed playing Warmachine/Hordes 2e. Ok, so PP put out 3e & you all didn't like it. So what? Why'd you stop playing the edition you did like??
That you aren't playing WM/H 2e is all on you & your group, not PP. They can't make you play an edition you don't like. I doubt all your 2e books spontaneously combusted or were magically recalled off your shelves. So why'd it end?

   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

well, this is part of a sales model

people want to have a hobby and because they like building and painting they get into models

but because scale models are a one thing and done model, at the same time selling a game around that scale model gives you an excuse

so people don't buy the models to play the game, but because they there is a game they buy models for display
and marketing sets in because how much a model is worth is related to the rules and the high price justified because you play with a model that is worth the money in points

if you don't ever plan to play or see no chance to play because there is no community, it is just an expensive display model, and not worth to put on the shelf, even if it is the same with the other models

this also is a reason why only the official edition/rules count
it is not about playing the game at all, so the actual rules don't matter


for those that actually want to play the game, things are different, but because they want to play the also stick to GW because Warhammer is the game played

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 oni wrote:

Adding to the issue is an edition that has pandered so hard to the competitive cupcake, it has driven away a huge swath of customers.


I don't think that is true. I stopped playing 40k this edition because the game wasn't fun. The whole primary/secondary objectives thing was a game, not a wargame. It is fine in Killteam where I expect that granularity, but not in a company+ sized engagement. It is like being at work where the 1* outlines his top 6 number 1 priorities (I jest, he has changed, the last time we asked him at a staff call he said his priority was to 'do everything well'.) The amount of info I have to know about the opponent isn't fun.

Plenty of games are highly competitive. Take Art De La Guerre which is played very competitively. It is still a fun wargame. Or online games like counterstrike. I am rubbish, but I can have fun for half an hour, there isn't a wild imbalance or lack of knowledge that ruins things for me. 40k is a mess, to the extent that while we had some great fun doing 500 point narrative linked games in 8th, we can't even seemingly do that in 9th without running into rule and codex and stratagem problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:


1) So as long as you're playing a game you'll buy stuff you know you'll never actually use? But you won't won't buy the crocodile men (or whatever) that you like for a game you aren't playing....
???


I actually bought a lot of the crocodile men from wargods of aegpyt or whatever it was called because I thought crocodiles were cool... Everything can always be a supporter in blood bowl at the end of the day

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/12/02 15:03:09


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:
I just don't understand this mentality, either paragraph of it.

1) So as long as you're playing a game you'll buy stuff you know you'll never actually use? But you won't won't buy the crocodile men (or whatever) that you like for a game you aren't playing....
???

2) So you had a community who enjoyed playing Warmachine/Hordes 2e. Ok, so PP put out 3e & you all didn't like it. So what? Why'd you stop playing the edition you did like??
That you aren't playing WM/H 2e is all on you & your group, not PP. They can't make you play an edition you don't like. I doubt all your 2e books spontaneously combusted or were magically recalled off your shelves. So why'd it end?


The point is there's a chance I'll use them (even if it probably won't happen). Versus other games where the chance appears to be zero - or has become zero. I don't think its rational exactly. But when you go to the FLGS, play a game of 40k etc, the boxes are all on the shelves etc, so you can just buy a new kit. "New year, new army, lets get a starter or something, ah I'm bored a unit or two in, never mind." And it was the same with WM/H around 2012-2016 or so. You are having fun in the game, so why not?

Its different from just buying models for another game I don't play - and don't expect to ever play. Just as its different to buying lego or model trains or MTG cards.

I don't really know why WM/H 2e didn't continue - but it didn't. (And I don't think we were unique in this, I feel it pretty much disappeared all over the UK). I know some people keep the fire going for things like oldhammer, fantasy etc. But over the years I find that when the music stops most people just move on to other things. In this case a lot of people who had long been alienated with 40k in the 5th through 7th process got back into it. Interest in X-Wing, WM/H, Infinity etc just sort of disappeared as people got new 40k armies and were happy to play with them.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Warmachine died fast because PP made a series of mistakes all at once. Ending the PG program; gutting their own forums; messing up the launch of 3rd edition (which I've heard rumours of being rushed out the door).

These issues added ontop of things like supply chain problems and production issues and their unpopular choice of casting materials for plastics.


At the same time GW was doing a load of good moves so pepole jumped off one and into the other game. It killed 3rd edition and killed off 2nd edition for Warmachine. The loss of PG I think was a huge blow for a firm that relies heavily upon local vested interest to keep the game afloat outside of random store owners (who already had a problem with stock issues for some)




But the other factor is certainly that many people like being involved in something active and being worked on - something "alive". Which is why current editoins of games typically do better than old; why many move with them and why most things rely upon a firm or powerfully interested group to keep the attention alive

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Biloxi, MS USA

 Overread wrote:
But the other factor is certainly that many people like being involved in something active and being worked on - something "alive". Which is why current editoins of games typically do better than old; why many move with them and why most things rely upon a firm or powerfully interested group to keep the attention alive


This. I spent a bunch of time trying to think of how to put it, too, but you beat me to it. Basically as the 9th Agers put it when I tried to keep 8th going where I lived: "8th Ed is a dead game, there's not going to be any updates."

Those "updates" are important to a lot of people psychologically.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/02 16:12:10


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Tyel wrote:
The idea that I "could" use those minis is important.


There's a famous quote about books that I think applies here: "When we buy books, we think we are also buying the time to read them." Engaging in the delusion, and it really is a delusion, that we'll have the time to read all our books, listen to all our records, finish each of our whiskey bottles in good company, etc. is incredibly common. We like to believe we govern our own lives. In the cold light of day we sometimes realize we are on the large part governed by something else entirely.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Platuan4th wrote:
 Overread wrote:
But the other factor is certainly that many people like being involved in something active and being worked on - something "alive". Which is why current editoins of games typically do better than old; why many move with them and why most things rely upon a firm or powerfully interested group to keep the attention alive


This. I spent a bunch of time trying to think of how to put it, too, but you beat me to it. Basically as the 9th Agers put it when I tried to keep 8th going where I lived: "8th Ed is a dead game, there's not going to be any updates."

Those "updates" are important to a lot of people psychologically.


I think it applies to many markets, but for Wargames I think part of it is that we invest a lot of time into them, money too but building and painting is a big time sink. So we like to think that for that huge time sink there's going to be more to enjoy after that. If the idea is that the army, let alone the game itself, won't get any new updates. No balance adjustments, no new art, models, stories, etc... Even when you see games that are maintained without a host company driving interest you often see balance updates and new things from the community itself. Bloodbowl had this in buckets even to the point where a few firms started up to supply that market with new models.

You see the same thing in video games too, those games that often last the test of time are not just really well made, but often served by a keen modding community or a dedicated competitive end organising events and the like.


The difference between company and community though is that communities need a lot more work to drive popularity up and also to remain focused. A company derives income and has the game as their focus; whilst a community project often has to contend with the fact that its a hobby nad that you either need a few skilled and dedicated people who never leave; or a large enough population that those who leave can be swiftly replaced with those of at least equal skill and dedication. Otherwise they fall apart


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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Overread wrote:
Even when you see games that are maintained without a host company driving interest you often see balance updates and new things from the community itself. Bloodbowl had this in buckets even to the point where a few firms started up to supply that market with new models.


Depends on the game. 2nd Ed 40K and Oldhammer not so much, but Kevin Coleman has been doing stuff for EEFL(including a revamp of his Goblin sub-races he did for White Dwarf) and there's the various retcons of End Times(Age of Rebuilding and the like).

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

Just watched the video and made it through it successfully (which was a surprise). Sucks to hear that FLGS's will be squeezed like this by GW trying to have their cake and eat it too.

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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 Platuan4th wrote:
 Overread wrote:
But the other factor is certainly that many people like being involved in something active and being worked on - something "alive". Which is why current editoins of games typically do better than old; why many move with them and why most things rely upon a firm or powerfully interested group to keep the attention alive


This. I spent a bunch of time trying to think of how to put it, too, but you beat me to it. Basically as the 9th Agers put it when I tried to keep 8th going where I lived: "8th Ed is a dead game, there's not going to be any updates."

Those "updates" are important to a lot of people psychologically.


This seems to be a fault in the groupthink of fantasy/sci fi gamers specifically. We've a solid historical element at our local club and they just don't think like this at all. They're often playing systems that are decades old, sometimes patched to suit their preferences, often not.

The concept that ongoing tinkering from some authority on high gives a game value can be quite restrictive, and it took the death of a game I was not remotely ready to stop playing to realise it.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Historical is almost a retirement hobby though and some elements are different. Eg for them the rules are more about simulation than in fantasy/scifi wargames.

Plus they endlessly tinker with the representative numbers. It's just based upon hew historical documents of past battles and wars.

Plus there are loads of firms making new models for historical games. There's always a new sherman or tiger tank

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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

That they're just about simulation isn't an argument, all games are trying to simulate something, the difference is only the the thing fantasy games are trying to simulate is made up. It's also not entirely true, for as much as there's a thread that is trying to recreate precisely what happened, there's plenty that are playing a sandbox "What If?" style of game that's functionality little different to many fantasy systems.

They do tinker, yes, but they do so among themselves, they don't require the latest edition handed down to them on high. If something isn't working as they feel it should then they agree to changes (or, speaking from what I've seen, the owner of the game will assume responsibility for fixing it.)

There's literally dozens, if not hundreds, of fantasy and sci fi models by many different studios (even more if you include STLs) released every month. That you need the "right" troll or bowman or sci fi man with laser cannon is one of GWs greatest marketing successes and is a symptom of the same line of thinking.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
 
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