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It seems my local club is developing a thing for the eldar, one guy is doing a mech-dar and another guy has a venom spam that he wants to play (i.e. torrent all my MEQ off the table). I've usually run a crowe + purifier quazi mech (mostly transport rhino/razor) MSU list. Should I stick with that thing or go with something more aggressive like a drago + pally death star build? Also possible to do a deep strike + storm raven drop list (though I'll have to borrow some stuff)

what'd be the ideal counter to venom spam as gk?

Venom spam tends to have its AT in the 18 inch band (except the 3 ravagers, but they can only slag 3 veh a turn). With your MSU razorspam list you should be able to/combined with fortitude/be able to down most of his venoms in the early stages of the game, before your marines even need to get out of their boxes

So sounds like target priority would be his venoms then. Any good counters to night shields? (and no, not the obvious "don't play nightfighting") I've heard that really offsets the 18 inch problem.

Hmm imo ideal would be autocannon dreadnoughts everywhere. Pump out as many S8 shots as you can while close in with interceptors or something. Incinerators arent all that bad against those paper airplanes they ride in and doubles as a character roaster to boot

The one Grey Knight list Dark Eldar really fear is Psyback SPAM. Combine this with a few Strike Squads and you have him in a pickle, especially if you get to go first; if he deploys you shoot him away, if he comes on as normal reserves from the board edge, you blow him away, just slower. So he has to Deep Strike (if he has the tech for it) in which case Warp Quake gimps him.

Don't get me wrong, if is a tough match-up for Grey Knights whatever way you cut it, but S6 SPAM is definitely the way to go. Get 3 Psyfle Dreads as back up. Don't take Intereceptors; they are Venom targets and nothing more, you need to be mounted at this gig.

Hmm imo ideal would be autocannon dreadnoughts everywhere.

Oh believe me, I got that one covered, all my elite and heavy slots are psyflemen dreads. No assasins or other tanks in that MSU list. i.e. 5 dreads

I figured they would be sucking up alot of the dark lances for the most part. Just not sure if I should rush with the razors or castle and wait for him to come to me then 5th turn objective grab eldar style?

Whatever way you do it, just make sure you can bring all guns to bear ASAP.

5x Psy Rifleman Dreads plus s6 heavy bolter razorbacks pretty much has it.

Nightshields reduce your range by 6"...as such anything with a 42 in change (autocannons) is great, as well even 36" ranges let you get shots on him while limiting his repsonse to you.

The priority will actually be on his Ravagers, as they can hurt you while you are still meched up. Then the venoms to stop his supplementary AT from getting into range.
His aim is to blow your vehicles open and then to pick apart your dismounts with massed splinter fire.

As to movement, deploy conservatively...with your razorbacks forward and your dreads a little back. This will let your maximum firepower bear on him with only 1 6" move.

if you have 3 rifle dreads and everything in transports you honeslty just win.... like unless you have so much terrain you can't see his ravagers you just win... Basically after you neuter/shake his ravagers turn one, and then take out his blaster/lance born you just win. Did i mention that mech GKs are the worst possible match up for DE (Maybe IG are as hard) and that you just win. I run venom spam exclusively and I gak my pants when i see a GK list, because DE rely on shaking vehicles to prevent counter attack, and GKs have a nifty rule that ignores this... Also if your dreads are getting hit by DLs, your doing it wrong. 48" (or 42" is he takes nightshields) > 36" DL. Add in psybolter backs and you eat them for breakfast. Just deploy on your table edge and don't let him alphas strike with blasterborn. a typical venom spam (I.E. one with blasters instead of DLs) will have 16 blasters with effective threat range of about 34" if he knows how to do transport shenanigcans, 9 DLs (11-13 if its 2k points and he enjoys scourges), and then 108 venom shots. If you shake/kill the ravagers turn one (honestly you should statisticaly get a pen and a glance average per dread and 1 goes through after cover). That stops all his ranged anti-tank, then you just torrent str 6 HBs into the venoms and it's gg lol.

Coteaz: 100

Ven Psy-Rifle: 195
Ven Psy-Rifle: 195
Ven Psy-Rifle: 195

3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62
3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62
3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62
3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62
3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62
3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62

Psy-Rifle: 135
Psy-Rifle: 135
Psy-Rifle: 135


This is only 1462 points, you have 38 pts to spend on upgrades.

If you are going to tailor a list, you might as well go all the way.

so what if we're doing night fighting and I can't actually "see" his units to shoot at them from nightshield? Is there a cool counter for that?

Does your opponent know you're tayloring your list to curb-stomp him? If not then what you're planning to do is extremely harsh.

Does your opponent know you're tayloring your list to curb-stomp him? If not then what you're planning to do is extremely harsh

oh we've been doing that for a while now so we're well aware of the one-upman ship that eventually happens amongst a small group

It's why that other guy is making an eldar army with wards of warding to curb stomp me later on. (who'll likely get torrented to death by their dark eldar brethern in said venom spam above)

sudojoe wrote:So sounds like target priority would be his venoms then.

No, the priority is the Ravagers.

Venoms can't hurt vehicles.

You might say the Trueborn inside can, but practically, they are not much of a threat.

As a DE player, the ONLY thing I fear about GK is psyflemen if I have a vehicle-heavy army (and usually do). Psybacks and psycannons are deadly, but much easier to avoid until I'm ready to hit them en masse. The psyfleman range + ability to ignore shakes/stuns is really obnoxious, and they usually destroy a skimmer per turn until they are dead. If you're running 3+ at 1500, you should have more than enough to whittle down Venom spam in a few turns. Castle your dreads behind some psybacks for cover saves, point and shoot. Hide your infantry (reserves, in transports, etc.) until needed. DE's lack of range will do them in against you.

U may want to think about dropping all ur armor for more infantry. I bet that everyone of his venoms is going to have anti tank abilitys inside. Backed up by his ravengers this equals bad day for ur armor. I would say lots of infantry deployed to support each other will be able to weather the worst of his anti infantry weapons. Plus as DE we have to get close with most all of our weapons. So seeing as how every weapon in ur army list as the ability to pop out transports wide open means that you dont need to spend the points on so many upgrades. It may seem like an odd concept for GK to try to outnumber and overwhelm and enemy. But with the points we spent on transports and upgrades in transport spam lists it is not out of reach for any army to outnumber us.

Also U will love the look on his face when he realizes that his ravengers and blasters will more than likely not be paying for themselves with kills in the game. As you have given him no high point high priority armor to pop open.

Whatever you decide to do just dont let him sperate and pick apart ur army! Stay together at all costs. Hell with the objectives. Table him and you win!

Mann84 wrote:U may want to think about dropping all ur armor for more infantry. I bet that everyone of his venoms is going to have anti tank abilitys inside.

You are aware what the outside does aren't you? You know, the reason Venom SPAM is so powerful? It is an anti-infantry list and its AT is limited by range which Razor-SPAM can combat very well. Going on foot is the worst thing he could do.

Of course im aware of it. But they are designed for for horde armies. With an extra cannon inside from trueborn 16 shot per venom im assuming his venom will have to move. 66% chance to hit so lets say 12 hit its a good day. 50% chance to wound so 6 wound. 66% chance to save a marine you only save 3 bad day for u. So on average his what? 150pt venom kills 3 marines a turn? O nooooos! venom spam a waste against lots of meq infantry.

Now if he takes desintigrator ravengers that would be a big problem. But DE rarely do that we rely on our splinters to do the heavy lifting. Problem with 3+ saves is if theres lots of them our splinter cannons cant do it alone and if we get close their bolters can trade blows with our spinter rifles. No good for DE! we dont like having shoting matchs with anyone least of all marines with bolters!

Mann84 wrote:Of course im aware of it. But they are designed for for horde armies. With an extra cannon inside from trueborn 16 shot per venom im assuming his venom will have to move. 66% chance to hit so lets say 12 hit its a good day. 50% chance to wound so 6 wound. 66% chance to save a marine you only save 3 bad day for u. So on average his what? 150pt venom kills 3 marines a turn? O nooooos! venom spam a waste against lots of meq infantry.

Now if he takes desintigrator ravengers that would be a big problem. But DE rarely do that we rely on our splinters to do the heavy lifting. Problem with 3+ saves is if theres lots of them our splinter cannons cant do it alone and if we get close their bolters can trade blows with our spinter rifles. No good for DE! we dont like having shoting matchs with anyone least of all marines with bolters!

Do everyone a favor and read the Codex as well as actually use Venoms before you start on this.
Venoms kill EVERYTHING.
It doesn't matter how well they wound. You get 12 shots from each Venom which, by the way, can move 12" and shoot 36" away with ZERO penalty.

So now ur down to just the 12 shots. but my math still holds true. 9 venoms will be able to knock out 18 marines a turn on average. yeah thats a lot. but thats his army with the tureborn inside thats well over a 1000 pt list. how many marines can you take for the same cost? and all those marines can knock a venom out of the sky.

Of course razor spam works great against venom spam but I was tossing another idea out there for yall. splinter cannon fire is not all its made out to be against meq infantry masses in my opinion is all.

Marines on foot with 24" range VS venoms with 36" range and you think that's a good idea? ONLY 18 dead marines a turn?

Even if you brought 90 marines (30 purifiers and 60 strikes + a 25 point HQ is 1905 point if you give them psycannons. add in hammers and whatnot and you have a 2k list) that's still a pretty big portion of your army each turn. If they got you shoot at you unmolested (which is obviously not going to happen, but still), they'd kill all 90 marines in 5 turns. And as you said, that's not even half of their army. Foot is a bad idea vs DE, because killing infantry is what DE do best, end of story.

What are you afraid of, dark lances? How many dark lances does a DE list have? 20? 25? 30?

It takes 9 lance shots to mathematically kill 1 rhino without cover. Lances are bad missiles. You don't have to be so afraid of them that you don't take any vehicles at all.

Dark lances are not really to be afraid of. I have had mixed results with them. I have wrecked pred's on the first turn in one game only to keep it stunned for 6 turns in the next. not to mention rolling nothing but 1s and 2s with them in a shooting phase.

Rhinos and razors are a pain and are cheap so why not take them? They are tried and tested they work. I was just putting out another tactic that could have good results who knows. I have never played against an all tac squad marine force so I am just looking at it from a math prospective.

U made a really good point to keep in mind that the venoms will not get to just get to run around shooting unmolested.

Next time I game with my buddy ill see if I cant convince him to roll an all marine force against me Im pretty curious now

interesting idea, I do have a mostly foot list but it's dragowing with quite alot of paladins running around that I use for fun match ups as opposed to this upcomming curb stomp attempt. Don't think I have 90 gk infantry models yet actually lol. Maybe if I sub in some vanilla marines .... but so far I looks like I'll be going with some combination of psy backs + rhinos (with 2 psy cannons shooting out). or should I just go all psybacks?

All Psybacks indeed joe, Venoms really don't like S6 TL guns that can match their range but outdo them.

@Mann; how can you think 18 dead Marines a turn is a good thing? Have you ever actually seen a Grey Knight army? They don't carry weight of numbers; at 1750 the most bodies he could get on the board would be ~82 but that's with SFA equipment so would have no way to deal with the Venoms, who would have him all but tabled in ~ turn 4. Note that's based on the Venom's shooting only, not including the 3 Ravagers and the guys inside who will be able to take down a lot more Marines also (Ravagers should take down 2 each, with the guys inside averaging one, so that adds another 12 to the tally per turn, so 30 dead Marines a turn).

svendrex wrote:Coteaz: 100

Ven Psy-Rifle: 195
Ven Psy-Rifle: 195
Ven Psy-Rifle: 195

3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62
3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62
3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62
3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62
3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62
3x warrior acolytes + Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo: 62

Psy-Rifle: 135
Psy-Rifle: 135
Psy-Rifle: 135


This is only 1462 points, you have 38 pts to spend on upgrades.

If you are going to tailor a list, you might as well go all the way.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

@godless

I never said that 18 dead marines was a good thing, well less you are on the other side of the battle field but with the amount of firepower being sent down range 18 not so bad. If it were orcs taking the same salvo they would lose round 36 boyz a turn.

you are right that you have to factor in the other firepower in the army. but you give to much credit to the ravengers but yeah between 1 and 2 marines a turn each but thats not what they were meant for so will not make up their points.

Also if the guys inside the venom want to fire effectively venom cannot move (depending on weapons) and if it moves more then 6 no troops inside can shoot. If it moves guys inside count as moving bye heavy weaps. and if the venom gets close enough for them all to bring weapons to bear you will be in range of them as well.

Svendrex above armylist is the bane of venom spam no doubt it is one of the best ways to go. I was just saying that there is not just one way to skin a dark eldar. No reason to be afraid of trying something different worse that will happen is you lose.

Mann84 wrote:but you give to much credit to the ravengers but yeah between 1 and 2 marines a turn each but thats not what they were meant for so will not make up their points.

They really won't care when the DE have tabled you in turn 4.

Mann84 wrote:Also if the guys inside the venom want to fire effectively venom cannot move (depending on weapons) and if it moves more then 6 no troops inside can shoot. If it moves guys inside count as moving bye heavy weaps.

Wrong on two assumptions; that they will always stay in the Venom, and that they carry Heavy Weapons (which is never the case; Blasters all the way). Then again, their fire power isn't always going to be needed.

Mann84 wrote:I was just saying that there is not just one way to skin a dark eldar. No reason to be afraid of trying something different worse that will happen is you lose.

This is true in a situation where the suggestion is something that has the potential to succeed, and this is not one of those cases.