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So daemons: I really like that GW tried to do something new with the Daemon codex: it really is a cool idea. Well, I'm not sure how the army performed in 4th (I've never played 4th) but they have some trouble in 5th.

So the question I'm asking is this: how would YOU improve Daemons? Not make them OP, just.... more capable.
Me first? well, if you insist...
There are some strengths to the daemon codex. They can absolutely shred infantry. They're eternal warrior. Their saves are invulnerable. They're fearless. Great Unclean Ones. Soul Grinders.

However, there are some fatal flaws as well. The standard save is 5+. This works on cheap infantry, like guardsmen, but when they're 15-17 pts a pop? Not so much. They have serious difficulty taking on more than 1 vehicle. A lot of Daemons are overpriced (furies, DP upgrades, every greater daemon except the GUO) Their shooting would be useful if you could get it on people that could afford to be assaulted, or if they had a better range. And finally:
Daemonic Assault.
Really? I HAVE to fight at 1/2 strength the entire game because I HAVE to rely on reserve rolls while everything on the field is being taken out by volley after volley of anti-infantry fire? Oh, and there's a good chance that it'll be the half I clearly DON'T want to put on the field yet?

So, to reiterate, how would you fix any of this? New rules? Modifying/deleting existing rules? Modifying unit costs? This is the time to speak up! Feel free to wishlist, but the idea is to make a subpar codex into a balanced codex.

All Lesser Daemons have 4+ Invunrable saves
Lower the price of Furies

I'm fine with everything else.

Allow them to assault after Daemonic ASSAULT and we are good.

agreed. An almost exclusively assault army should be able to assault after deepstriking. I think the reason they didn't do this is because they feared that the enemy would have no chance to harm them out of CC: to turn to shoot them in. However, assaulting after deepstriking assumes that you will scatter/come in on target within 6". unlikely.
Also, chaos icons should be far, far cheaper.

more ranged options. Plus, all that was said before. And maybe a more Tech/Cyber/futuristic look.

I would change the Soul Grinder to a true living creature, rather then a vechicle. stats like WS 6 BS 3 T7 A3 I5 SV3/4
still have the strength 10 weapon. The cost right now is not worth it, due to all the anti-vechicle weapons out there. Go back and stated where on certain god can work with each other, and make sure that each select or troop,fast heavies work together.

Chaos Daemons may always choose to go first or second, as this represents a planned attack from the Realm of Chaos. In addition, the entire Chaos Daemons army will enter play by deepstrike on either the first or second turn, chosen by the controlling player after the opponent has deployed.

Units from Codex: Chaos Daemons do not mishap in the normal manner when they scatter onto enemy units. Instead, roll on the following table:

1- Daemonic Takeover! The unit is possessed by Daemons, and removed from play. The Chaos Daemons unit is placed in the location it scattered to, without further penalty.

2 - Attempted Takeover. The enemy unit receives 2D6 S3 hits that ignore armour saves, and the Chaos Daemons unit is returned to reserves as per a roll of 5-6 on the deepstrike mishap table.

3 - Resisted. The Chaos Daemons unit fails to possess the enemy unit, but is not repelled entirely. Instead, reduce the scatter by the minimum required to avoid the enemy unit, whilst safely placing the entire Chaos Daemons unit.

4 - Repelled. The same as 3, except that the Chaos Daemons unit suffers 2D6 S2 hits that ignore armour saves.

5 - Backlash. The Chaos daemons unit counts as having rolled a 3-4 on the deepstrike mishap table, and hence is placed by the enemy.

6 - Destruction. The Chaos Daemons unit is destroyed, as per a roll of 1-2 on the deepstrike mishap table.

I particularly like the roll of one - this will really discourage people from playing deathstar armies, as a unit of Daemonettes deepstriking could result in a dead 700pt Paladin + Draigo unit...

Finally, always going first removes the risk of that ridiculous Grey Knight power destroying your entire army.

Just like with Tau, I think Daemons would be great if all point costs dropped about 20%. And if all Khorne Units came standard with Blessing of the Blood God.

Deadshot wrote:Allow them to assault after Daemonic ASSAULT and we are good.

Too strong. There's a reason why only maybe 2-3 units in all of 40k that can assault on the turn they deepstrike (or similar) in. Too unbalancing IMO. Imagine an all-Slaanesh army - KoS, Masque, 3 units of fiends, daemonettes and seekers. It could potentially be game over on turn 1!

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I would change the Soul Grinder to a true living creature, rather then a vechicle. stats like WS 6 BS 3 T7 A3 I5 SV3/4
still have the strength 10 weapon. The cost right now is not worth it, due to all the anti-vechicle weapons out there. Go back and stated where on certain god can work with each other, and make sure that each select or troop,fast heavies work together.

Already too many monstrous creatures in a daemon army. They don't need another 1. I think grinders are fine as they are. You just need to take some redundancy with them....or don't take them at all. Let your opponent waste his AT on units all with Invuln saves.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Chaos Daemons may always choose to go first or second, as this represents a planned attack from the Realm of Chaos. In addition, the entire Chaos Daemons army will enter play by deepstrike on either the first or second turn, chosen by the controlling player after the opponent has deployed.

Units from Codex: Chaos Daemons do not mishap in the normal manner when they scatter onto enemy units. Instead, roll on the following table:

1- Daemonic Takeover! The unit is possessed by Daemons, and removed from play. The Chaos Daemons unit is placed in the location it scattered to, without further penalty.

2 - Attempted Takeover. The enemy unit receives 2D6 S3 hits that ignore armour saves, and the Chaos Daemons unit is returned to reserves as per a roll of 5-6 on the deepstrike mishap table.

3 - Resisted. The Chaos Daemons unit fails to possess the enemy unit, but is not repelled entirely. Instead, reduce the scatter by the minimum required to avoid the enemy unit, whilst safely placing the entire Chaos Daemons unit.

4 - Repelled. The same as 3, except that the Chaos Daemons unit suffers 2D6 S2 hits that ignore armour saves.

5 - Backlash. The Chaos daemons unit counts as having rolled a 3-4 on the deepstrike mishap table, and hence is placed by the enemy.

6 - Destruction. The Chaos Daemons unit is destroyed, as per a roll of 1-2 on the deepstrike mishap table.

I particularly like the roll of one - this will really discourage people from playing deathstar armies, as a unit of Daemonettes deepstriking could result in a dead 700pt Paladin + Draigo unit...

Finally, always going first removes the risk of that ridiculous Grey Knight power destroying your entire army.

Daemon players may then mishap on purpose. Take min sized squads and just bomb the heck out of your opponents. There must be risk for being able to position your army almost anywhere on the map. Your opponent shouldn't have to be punished for you taking some risky moves. This is what I would be ok with:

1-2 - Resisted
3-4 - Goes back into reserves
5 - Backlash
6 - Destruction

Opponent is not punished if you decide you want to take a gamble. At the same time, there's a 1/3 chance that when you mishap, you would still be alright.

The Deep strike rules is what I firmly believe nerfs the Daemon codex to unacceptable levels of game play.

These are the two small changes that have big implications for the Daemon Codex.

1. You do not have to deep strike 1/2 of your army on to the game table on 1st turn. You follow the same Deep strike rules rules for first turn deep strike assault like the rest of the armies that can also do this (SW, Death wing etc).

2. Can have units come on as normal reserves just like everyone else.

These two small and simple changes that uses already established rules in 40K will give the Daemon player an equal footing with many other codexes. I've been testing this idea against GK armies lists and my chances of winning a game (due to the game mechanics) against them have improved.

Put it all back in Codex: Chaos.

DarknessEternal wrote:Put it all back in Codex: Chaos.

No. I know allot of people want this, but seriously I just want a pure Daemom army.

I'd like to see one unit in the DoC book that can Assault after DS. It doesn't have to be anything super, I'd be happy if Furies could do it. This would allow a counter to being stuck in the open for turn or 2 by being able to hold up a unit of Long Fangs or something.

A SC that allows initiative manipulations.

I'd also be happy with something like Psychic Communication, so you could adjust your reserve rolls a little, and not be totally screwed when you units don't arrive until turn 5.

More Forge of Souls units?

Hmmm here goes:

- Remove the Daemonic Assault rule all together. Make it that you have half come in T1, roll reserves for the rest T1 but need a 5+ for the unit to come in. This makes heralds (with my improvement) great for mono lists, other lists will pick and choose more, and you still can get everything in T1. T2+ you roll like normal.
- All heralds add +1 to reserve rolls for their gods units (i.e. Skulltaker would give you a +1 to all khorne units coming in), or they allow you to reroll reserves for that gods units.
- Daemon Princes - make them cheaper, give them better abilities
- Make fleshhounds more unique, make furies not suck, make screamers number of attacks = meltabombs (so 2 attacks on the charge, each gets 2 meltabombs)
- Make Heralds of Nurgle not suck
- The basic units are fine, but cheapen them. Horrors should NOT be 17 pts, especially being BS 3 and having far worse stats than a guardsman. That or give them the ability to take 2 bolts/unit
- Allow some units to assault after DS like others said
- Add 1 more wound to all the Greater Daemons
- SOMETHING ANTI-PSYKER!!!! Seriously, we have the right hand man of Tzeentch and he gets eaten by Jaws.... how does that make sense?
- Make Skarbrand cheaper (hes not worth 300 pts)
- Beasts of Nurgle need to be made better
- Cheapen up Flamers of Tzeentch (35 pts a model? ouch)
- give fiend units frag grenades... oh, and make PLASTIC fiends
- Add more synergy to the codex; I understand each god has a specialty, but seriously.... the only viable lists revolve around spamming BoC or running fateweaver to keep your stuff alive!
- Grinders, Crushers, most GD's, Heralds of S/K/T, Fiends, all the troops are mostly good.
- New units, but we all knew we were gonna get some anyway

Zid wrote:- SOMETHING ANTI-PSYKER!!!! Seriously, we have the right hand man of Tzeentch and he gets eaten by Jaws.... how does that make sense?

Jaws isn't a psychic power because NATURAL FENRIS LIFE POWER NOT LISTENING, so Tzeentch can't stop it.

Point costs being lowered a bit and not being based on fluffy numbers would be nice.

My Horrors cost too much lol.

Heralds giving bonuses to units like the do in the fantasy book would be cool.

I kinda like having the army deepstrike for deployment, it does bug me having only half the army for a fair chunk of the game however, would be cool if you could just choose to have your whole army deepsrike in your 1st turn rather than half.

i think it would be cool to have one big chaos book that would have all the chaos( CSM and Daemons) stuff in it.

you could still field both armies normally, but you would be able to have daemons supporting your affiliated troops. (K Deamons supporting zerkers)

Give em the ability to buy units warp rifts (as in the Missions book) for some value and have those deepstrike first turn for any unit in reserve, allowing them to move on as from a table edge.

Aside from that it would be a re-price and let deploy normally sort of thing.

Jack

Give the JOTWW. And Hammerhand.

I've posted this before, but:

1. Soul Grinder, add new Rule: Warp-Forged. "The Soul Grinder is part daemon, part machine, and more resilient than Realspace vehicles as a result. When the Soul Grinder suffers damage from ranged weapons, roll two dice on the damage table and apply the lowest."

[Rationale: The Soul Grinder is the only vehicle in the codex, and suffers hugely as all anti-tank weapons are turned on it. As such, they never survive long. This should hopefully add some extra defence, and encourage enemies to attack it in close combat].

2. Screamers, addition to rule: Warp Jaws. "Additionally, Screamers with Warp Jaws hit vehicles at worst on a 4+."

[Rationale: Daemons are very weak against AV14, and also have a weak fast attack section of their codex. Hopefully this will encourage more use of Screamers to help with high-AV tanks.]

3. Pink Horrors of Tzeentch, Points change and upgrade change. Cost reduced to 16 points. Changeling increased to 15 points. Change bolt upgrade to: "Gift one model with Bolt of Tzeentch: +10 points. If the squad numbers 10 or more, you may gift a second model with Bolt of Tzeentch: +15 points".

[Rationale: Changeling was too much of a no-brainer choice. Increased cost to dissuade this. Daemons rely too heavily on Plaguebearers to hold objectives. Hopefully the points reduction and ability to take two bolts in large squads will encourage the use of large Horror squads to sit on objectives and take out mech instead of using minimum squads of Plaguebearers as objective takers and nothing else.

4. Daemonic Assault, remove the third and fourth paragraphs detailing the division of the army into two groups. Replace with: "At the beginning of your first turn, divide the army into two groups that must include, as much as possible, the same number of units. Declare one of these groups as the group to arrive on the first turn. You must then subject yourself to the will of the Gods; roll a D6. On a 3-6 the chosen group arrives on the first turn. On a 1-2 the other group arrives on the first turn OR the chosen group arrives, but units in reserve suffer a -1 reserve modifier on the second game turn (i.e. arrive on a 5+ instead of a 4+). You may chose which penalty to take.

The units in the group to arrive on the first turn arrive on the first turn automatically. The remaining units are held in reserve, and rolled for normally (unless subject to the penalty detailed above). All units enter play via Deep Strike."

[Rationale: This change essentially gives a get-out clause to rolling the wrong group at the start of the game. For many Daemon Builds, getting the wrong group is essentially game over on turn one. This allows for the chosen group to always arrive first, but in exchange for a penalty to the important turn-2 wave.]

5. Beasts of Nurgle, points change, rule change. Reduce points to 30. Add Noxious Touch. In Random Poisoned Attacks, change the reference from 4+ to 2+. Remove Slow and Purposeful. Add: "Enthusiasm: A Beast of Nurgle's willingness to 'play' waxes and wanes with its discovery of new 'friends'. Beasts of Nurgle have three levels of excitement: Bored, Excited and Gleeful, represented as 0, 1 or 2 Excitement Counters. Beasts of Nurgle begin the game Bored. Bored Beasts (0 Tokens) move as infantry, but are slow and purposeful. Excited Beasts (1 Token) move as infantry. Gleeful Beasts (2 Tokens) move as infantry and are Fleet. A unit of Beasts gains an Excitement token (to a maximum of 2) if it takes part in a combat during the Daemon player's turn. A unit of Beasts loses an Excitement token (to a minimum of 0) if it does not take part in a combat during the Daemon player's turn. All Beasts of Nurgle cannot Sweeping Advance (They are too busy playing with the floppy corpses of their new found 'friends'.".

[Rationale: The elites section of the Chaos Daemon codex is perhaps the most powerful, with both Bloodcrushers and Fiends in this slot. At their old price of 35 points, they are just 5 points less than Blood Crushers, and worse in most ways. The additions above makes them closer in power to Fiends and Bloodcrushers such that they might be considered, and fill a niche for killing high-toughness enemies.]

@GCMandrake: I like a lot of your suggestions. The only thing I would even tweak is Horrors needing NINE to get the extra bolt instead of ten. Maybe a few more little benefits if the squads are in the favored multiples of the appropriate chaos god.

I was going to suggest 9 as well.


maybe a special rule that if you ave 36 Slaaneshis, 49 Nurglies, 81 Tzeentchians or 64 Khornates you get a bonus/ You know, the sacred numbe rX sacred number?

While having fluffy bonuses for units is cool, I think in terms of gameplay its not really going to help the army much.

I imagine your army list would be a tad restricted if your aiming for the "sacred numbers".

Xeriapt wrote:While having fluffy bonuses for units is cool, I think in terms of gameplay its not really going to help the army much.

I imagine your army list would be a tad restricted if your aiming for the "sacred numbers".

Hehe... I do it NOW, so I'm good either way. It would just be "cool".

Deepstriking entry is always going to be a problem.

Point costs are overburdening, especially on anything tzeentch.
Deamon princes should have wings for free.

We have nothing that can open any type of armor (I've spent an entire game shooting with 8+bolts and never popped an armor 12 tank)

We need some psychic defense (every codex should have something imo) and some psychic offense for balance

Make some of the other choices (as metioned) a little better so there's something else to choose besides blood crushers that are worth taking.

Something besides bloodcrushers? I hear alot of people are fans of fiends and I know at least I always take flamers, maybe thats just cause I like Tzeentch though.

I think if beasts of nurgle could just be improved in some way that would allow for more choice.


Cheaper wings would be cool, not sure about free wings though.

A bit more in the department of tank busting would probably be handy.
I wouldnt just rely on bolt to kill tanks though, you need to use a combo of monstrous creatures/screamers/bolt etc

Psychic stuff has never worried me much, not sure daemons really need any psychic offense stuff, some defensive stuff would probably be useful though, maybe some sort of upgrade you can get for Heralds?

Itd be cool if maybe their first group could have something like DoA and the secong ds as normal.

BotBG should be on every khorne unit by default.

4++ on all lesser daemons.

Can assault after deepstrike.

Get to choose which half of the army comes in first.

I do think that assualting after deepstriking is a little strong.

That being said, i think if its an upgrade we can give certain(or all) units then it will be acceptable.

Also, some HQs or special characters come with it since it represents how they are more experianced with the warp than others