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Okay, fair enough, I guess DC aren't overcosted.

I was saying they are overpriced even when we thought they have 2+ armour saves. Now they're simply garbage. Anyone trying to convince you that a jump packing T4 W1 SV3+ model with 4 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge is worth 50 points is simply delusional. They're glass cannons and like I said earlier they don't even hit that hard.

Frankly I think all of the assault units in the book are pretty terrible or atleast mediocre. The key has to be in finding some cheap moderately costed troops with fleet of foot and use those Storm Harbingers and/or Pods to alpha strike hard enough to be able to grasp a win. I just doubt its going to work very well against mech.

Therion wrote:Frankly I think all of the assault units in the book are pretty terrible or atleast mediocre. The key has to be in finding some cheap moderately costed troops with fleet of foot and use those Storm Harbingers and/or Pods to alpha strike hard enough to be able to grasp a win. I just doubt its going to work very well against mech.

I don't know that I'd say that all the assault units are terrible to mediocre, but I think you do make a good point in needing to find a way to synergize assaulting troops w/ fleet - Storm Harbingers only allow Assault Squads w/ Jump Packs to assault from them. Other than that, the BA have no other new or interesting vehicles capable of delivering troops to assault - we're left with the Land Raider variants and the laughable LS Storm (which with Baal Initiates and some other tricks, though, could potentially be interesting - I need to look at it some more, though).

Therion wrote:

Okay, fair enough, I guess DC aren't overcosted.

I was saying they are overpriced even when we thought they have 2+ armour saves. Now they're simply garbage. Anyone trying to convince you that a jump packing T4 W1 SV3+ model with 4 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge is worth 50 points is simply delusional. They're glass cannons and like I said earlier they don't even hit that hard.

Frankly I think all of the assault units in the book are pretty terrible or atleast mediocre. The key has to be in finding some cheap moderately costed troops with fleet of foot and use those Storm Harbingers and/or Pods to alpha strike hard enough to be able to grasp a win. I just doubt its going to work very well against mech.

I dunno about that. I'm not a competitive or tournament player yet, so I really don't know what qualifies as good or not, but those calvalry furioso dreads seem pretty damn cool. And the Storm Harbinger is a cool assault unit in and of itself. I look forward to unloading a group of Exalted out and having them hit and run back behind the Harbinger for cover.

Unless I'm grossly mistaken (I play Necrons) but the furioso dreads are awesome for those points. I think that they'd do a pretty damn good job of wrecking most units in CC.

torgoch wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Rending power fists with furious charge & preferred enemy assaulting a mech line from deepstrike.

G

Or scattering onto the target, rolling a 1 on the mishap, and really making your day... Can't see inertial guidance on that Lander unit entry.

I play daemons so I'm used to handling these types of situations.

G

Therion wrote:

Okay, fair enough, I guess DC aren't overcosted.

I was saying they are overpriced even when we thought they have 2+ armour saves. Now they're simply garbage. Anyone trying to convince you that a jump packing T4 W1 SV3+ model with 4 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge is worth 50 points is simply delusional. They're glass cannons and like I said earlier they don't even hit that hard.

Frankly I think all of the assault units in the book are pretty terrible or atleast mediocre. The key has to be in finding some cheap moderately costed troops with fleet of foot and use those Storm Harbingers and/or Pods to alpha strike hard enough to be able to grasp a win. I just doubt its going to work very well against mech.

Don't hit that hard?

LeMartes w/7xDC w/4 LC's assaulting out of a Storm Harbinger vs. 10 SM Tac squad w/Power Fist.

DC=12 LC attacks,9 hits,8 PW wounds+12 Rending attacks,9 hits,6-7 normal wounds+1-2 PW wounds.
LeMartes=5 PW attacks,4 hits,3 PW wounds

Equipped like that,they'll wipe a 10-man MEQ unit out at I5 before they even get a chance to swing back with plenty of room to spare,and you're pretty much guaranteed at least one charge with full numbers with Storm Harbinger. Putting an HQ like LeMartes in there with an Invuln helps you with P.Guns and PW's.

Now that we essentially have a full codex to work from, does anyone else think it's worth moving to/starting a new discussion in the tactics forum?

Ostrakon wrote:

Therion wrote:

Okay, fair enough, I guess DC aren't overcosted.

I was saying they are overpriced even when we thought they have 2+ armour saves. Now they're simply garbage. Anyone trying to convince you that a jump packing T4 W1 SV3+ model with 4 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge is worth 50 points is simply delusional. They're glass cannons and like I said earlier they don't even hit that hard.

Frankly I think all of the assault units in the book are pretty terrible or atleast mediocre. The key has to be in finding some cheap moderately costed troops with fleet of foot and use those Storm Harbingers and/or Pods to alpha strike hard enough to be able to grasp a win. I just doubt its going to work very well against mech.

I dunno about that. I'm not a competitive or tournament player yet, so I really don't know what qualifies as good or not, but those calvalry furioso dreads seem pretty damn cool. And the Storm Harbinger is a cool assault unit in and of itself. I look forward to unloading a group of Exalted out and having them hit and run back behind the Harbinger for cover.

Unless I'm grossly mistaken (I play Necrons) but the furioso dreads are awesome for those points. I think that they'd do a pretty damn good job of wrecking most units in CC.

As far as I can tell, Exalted can't take any sort of transports.

I'm pondering the ability of a Librarian Dread in a Drop Pod's ability to really mess with a Leafblower artillery park, such as they exist. Throw out a Shockwave and melta shot (one psychic shooting attack and one "normal" shooting attack) should really hurt any tank/arty park within 12".

'Course, with most such things, it's probably too pricey to actually work... But against squadrons of AV 12/10/10 vehicles, it could be mighty nasty!

Vale,

JohnS

I don't think that the Death Company is a bad unit. It just isn't manditory any more. In the last codex there was no reason not to take the Death Company. The BA didn't have any other units that could compare. Now they have been toned down a bit and there are other units that are just as good. This hopefullly means that you will see a couple different BA builds and not that same one or two over and over again.

I think that it is going to take a while for BA players to get use to the DC especially since most of us have been relying on them for so long.

I like this codex. Of course I'm a fan of the more quirky options. . . Grenade Launcher for Devastators, All Stubborn army with Astorath. Fast Baal Predator w/Multi Meltas or Missile Launchers. Sergeant Lorenzo's Overwatch ability, Librarian Furioso w/Shockwave against Guard. There seems to be lots of different fun things in this codex. Whether they are competative or not is another issue but at least I have the option of trying them out.

Ostrakon wrote: And the Storm Harbinger is a cool assault unit in and of itself. I look forward to unloading a group of Exalted out and having them hit and run back behind the Harbinger for cover.

Um, if the Storm Harbinger is a Skimmer, I don't think you get cover behind it.

Therion wrote:

Okay, fair enough, I guess DC aren't overcosted.

I was saying they are overpriced even when we thought they have 2+ armour saves. Now they're simply garbage. Anyone trying to convince you that a jump packing T4 W1 SV3+ model with 4 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge is worth 50 points is simply delusional. They're glass cannons and like I said earlier they don't even hit that hard.

Did you consider them bad in the WD edition of the codex, because (as someone else already suggested, but I have not checked yet) I'm under the impression that they cost very close to the same amount and have the same abilities if you include Lemartes. The only difference is that rather than have the points spread out across the whole force, it's now actually within the squad.
I have not considered how much they will be left wanting if you don't couple them with Lemartes.

Whatever1 wrote:LeMartes w/7xDC w/4 LC's assaulting out of a Storm Harbinger vs. 10 SM Tac squad w/Power Fist.

You're talking about a unit that has cost you over 720 points vs a unit that is less than 200! That's nearly a 3rd of the value of your army in 3 units (the DC w/ Lemartes, the Storm Harbinger, and the VAS necessary to get you your LCs.)

Nosferatu wrote:As far as I can tell, Exalted can't take any sort of transports.

True, but there's no reason not to get a Storm Harbinger for something like a Tac Squad and then letting the Exalted use it. Sure, you can't use it to deep strike them in, but it'll be a solid way to get them to where you need them to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nosferatu wrote:I like this codex. Of course I'm a fan of the more quirky options. . . Grenade Launcher for Devastators,

I'm undecided about these guys. They're sort of like a squad armed with super-bolters. I don't know if it's worth the extra points, though.

Nosferatu wrote:All Stubborn army with Astorath.

Again, I'm undecided on this - I mean, regular SM can have an all Stubborn army with Pedro, and the general census on that is pretty poor. Granted, in a regular SM army, you -want- your Tac Squads to fall back after being assaulted so that they can shoot the assaulting unit. If you're building an army that you -want- to stay in the fight after being assaulted, then yeah, this may make sense. I need to think more about it, though.

Nosferatu wrote:Fast Baal Predator w/Multi Meltas or Missile Launchers.

I can see the appeal of using the MLs on this so you can use them as defensive weapons as you would with a Typhoon, but for something that you're going to want to sit in your backfield to best use the range of the MLs, I don't think the extra cost of the overcharged engines is worth it. That said, I think that if you're building an assault vehicle, the overcharged engines and MMs might be the way to go. It's a few points more expensive than a Devil Dog, with marginally better front armor, a better chance to kill tanks due to BS4, but more easily killable due to being open-topped and getting destroyed instead of immobilized when you go fast. Personally, I think the army's got better ways to kill tanks for the points spent.

Nosferatu wrote:Sergeant Lorenzo's Overwatch ability

Useful for setting up firelanes, but considering that it's done instead of shooting, I think it's way overpriced.

Nosferatu wrote:Librarian Furioso w/Shockwave against Guard.

I've got mixed feelings about the Librarian Furioso - while Shockwave could be good, I'd rather it be the strength of the blast that is stronger the nearer you are to the Furioso rather than it having to do with the number of vehicles affected. That said, I think a Furioso Librarian w/ Quickening could be pretty heinous. Run him with Seth and give him Fleet, too? Yipes. That's a heck of a threat radius even if you don't Drop Pod him.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:LeMartes w/7xDC w/4 LC's assaulting out of a Storm Harbinger vs. 10 SM Tac squad w/Power Fist.

You're talking about a unit that has cost you over 720 points vs a unit that is less than 200! That's nearly a 3rd of the value of your army in 3 units (the DC w/ Lemartes, the Storm Harbinger, and the VAS necessary to get you your LCs.)

Huh?

LeMartes=175
7 DC=154
7xJump Packs=70
4xLightening Claw=60
Storm Harbringer=140
Total=599

Little bit more than an 8-man AS in a LR. In either case,not a whole of units are going to wipe a full 10 man MEQ squad in a single round of combat,especially without taking casualties. If you want a more CC oriented example...

LeMartes+7 DC w/4 LC in Storm Harbringer(599 pts.) vs. 3xCarnifex Brood w/Crushing Claws,Adrenal Glands(595 pts.)

Storm Harbringer's Tantalus Shots=7 hits,1 AP 1 wound,2-3 normal wounds

LeMartes=5 attacks,4 Hits,1-2 PW wounds
4 DC w/LC=12 attacks,10-11 hits,6-7 PW wounds
3 DC=12 attacks,10-11 hits,1-2 PW wounds,4-5 normal wounds

The SH will,on average,get 1 Rending shot off 7 hits. The 'fexes will drop a save,on average,off the normal wounds inflicted,as well. That leaves 10 wounds left on the 'fexes heading into CC. LeMartes and the DC will inflict 9-10 PW wounds on average,and the 'fex will still have 4-5 other wounds to save even if it turns out to be 9. That's not factoring in the BP shots off the squad,either. On average,the DC DS assaulting out of a Storm Harbringer will eat a brood of 3 Carnifexes without suffering any casualties.

Dont forget to factor in the cost of the veteran assault squad you need in your army to get access to those lightning claws.

I don't know why all these people are bummed about the death company. They stayed pretty much the same and got 3 points cheaper according to the rumors.

I guess some people are just never happy.

The key with 40k though is to hit with a lot more than the unit you are hitting so that you can keep ping-ponging around without losing oomph.

Hitting 200pts with 600pts means that once you've wiped out that 200pt squad you might be down 50pts; you hit a 2nd 200pt squad and you might than be down to 500pts.

You've wiped out 200pts for a loss of 100pts and still are strong enough to wipe out a 3rd squad of 200pts meaning you just at least earned your points back.

Hit a 200pt squad with 200pt squad you might wipe it but most likely suffer heavy enough casualties that your 200pt squad loses enough "oomph" to no longer be effective meaning they become just a throw away unit next turn.

@Mike L: Don't forget DC are now truly optional, so you don't have to take them if you don't want to.

Fateweaver wrote:The key with 40k though is to hit with a lot more than the unit you are hitting so that you can keep ping-ponging around without losing oomph.

Hitting 200pts with 600pts means that once you've wiped out that 200pt squad you might be down 50pts; you hit a 2nd 200pt squad and you might than be down to 500pts.

You've wiped out 200pts for a loss of 100pts and still are strong enough to wipe out a 3rd squad of 200pts meaning you just at least earned your points back.

Hit a 200pt squad with 200pt squad you might wipe it but most likely suffer heavy enough casualties that your 200pt squad loses enough "oomph" to no longer be effective meaning they become just a throw away unit next turn.

The tactic you described worked really well in 3rd and 4th ed when you could consolidate into a fresh combat. Multicharging helps a little bit, but Nob Bikers have the advantage of being resilient and having giant bases for this approach. Regular infantry, not so much.

I dont see how anyone can say the new DC is not as good, in fact it's much better in my opinion.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I dont see how anyone can say the new DC is not as good, in fact it's much better in my opinion.

G

No joke, my initial impression is that they farking rock.

Rending Lightning claws and powerfists here I come!!!

G

I believe, from the way it is worded, that only the chainswords actually rend with Lemartes.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I dont see how anyone can say the new DC is not as good, in fact it's much better in my opinion.

G

Some people seem to think that they are bad because T4 3+ FNP is insufficiently tough against power weapons, plasma, etc. In point of fact I find that T4 3+ without FNP is usually tough enough, and FNP is icing on the cake. Death Company definitely look like a threatening unit to me, especially with the built-in Chaplain.

Death Company rock.. the codex gives a couple of different ways they can be used and point for point they beat nob bikers any day of the week and people still think those things are cool.

15 DC spread out with power fists on 7 dudes will just about trash a transport list because they will be able to assault most of them on turn 2 and be swinging str 9 on rear armor. If you are running them with longlegged meph then you don't even need jump packs.

Khornatedemon wrote:Dont forget to factor in the cost of the veteran assault squad you need in your army to get access to those lightning claws.

Why? BA VAS squads are already cheaper per model than AS Sgt's for the same statline(25 pts./model for VAS vs. 29 for AS Sgt.). That makes it obvious right there that they didn't inflate the VAS's point cost for the ability to give DC PW's. The VAS's are still an extremely versatile unit in their own right. If you want them on the cheap just to give DC PW's,then just buy a 5-man VAS squad and give them 2 melta-guns and a Rhino. Or use them like a retinue for Seth,if you're going for a balls-out Jump Troop army.

Just listing off the top of my head...

Seth w/Jump Pack=210
LeMartes=175
7-man DC w/4xLC and Storm Harbringer w/TL Plasma=434
7-man HG w/2xPF,5xPLC and Storm Harbringer w/TL Plasma=510
8-man AS w/Flamer,PF,Infernus Pistol and Storm Harbringer w/TL Plasma=222
8-man AS w/Flamer,PF,Infernus Pistol and Storm Harbringer w/TL Plasma=222
8-man AS w/Melta,PF,Infernus Pistol and Storm Harbringer w/TL Plasma=227

2000,even. May not be the most effective list,but would sure be a ton of fun to play with.

Brother SRM wrote:The number of misspellings also makes me think it's a "rough draft" of sorts.

The appalling writing in general makes me think it's a fake.

It's either a reasonably well-done (if somewhat wishlisty) fan codex, or it's a sign that GW have outsourced their rules development to a Chinese sweatshop.

I looked over this fandex again and I just seems more fake every time.
I guess we just have to wait for its release.
Waaaaggghhhhhh
The new lander is still cool

Apparently, some guy over at warseer says he´s seen an email that was
sent to all GW stores advising that the leaked codex is in fact the real codex.

link: www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242097&page=29

2000,even. May not be the most effective list,but would sure be a ton of fun to play with.

I think that's the bottom line with BA lists. "Woohoo air cav assault marines!" won't be much fun once you're getting tabled game after game.

Why I think DC are garbage is because they don't have any extra bang for the buck. They hit as hard as 50 point models have to be able to hit the minimum, but they die as easily as 15 point models. I see no use whatsoever for units like that. Be serious here. If a 600 point unit hits as hard as 3 200 point units but dies as easily as 1 200 point unit, just get 3 200 point units instead.

I have played the current DC extensively and if they have one attribute it's that they are incredibly tough in the hands of a capable player. If rumors are true they'll be great at killing things again.

G