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Brother Coa wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Anyway, how could the Tyranids pacify the Star Wars galaxy when they can't even pacify the Imperium?

I know this is off thread but... Imperium is much stronger faction than any other Star Wars major faction ( Galactic Republic, Sith Empire, CIS and Galactic Empire ).

Hardly. Star Wars has always had the greater strategic mobility (crossing the galaxy in days, not weeks), efficiency (not having planets forgotten due to lost paperwork), production (built the DS II in six months, built 25,000 ISD's in under twenty years, built 1,000 Acclamator-class Assault Transports in under a year), and super weapons (Death Star, Torpedo Spheres, Galaxy Gun, Sun Crusher, World Devastators). The only real advantage 40k has is that their ships aren't vastly weaker in fire power and that they're tough. Wars still wins on RoF, range, speed, and firepower however.

And what about ground troops?
SW don't have Titans either... And Warhammer have Blackstone fortresses, Craftworlds, Tombworlds...
And all those weapons can't do anything against the powers of the warp...
And also, Warhammer has teleportation - SW don't. And that's a big advantage on it's own.

And regarding the Imperium... He is politically more stronger than any of this SW "empires". Imperial Navy is also numberless with hundreds of dockworlds in the galaxy building hundreds ships per day. And what can SW ships do against Craftworld or Necron fleet?

In terms of everything 40k is more powerfull simply because it has everything in larger scale and it has divine beings ( Chaos Gods, C'tan, The Emperor... ).

Ground forces rarely matter unless you need to capture a ground target. Win in space and the ground battle never happens because one side can't land troops. Even if they do make landfall then you get to deal with titan level AT-AT's, XR-85 tank droids, and a great availability of both air and space support. Prefabricated garrisons with full shields, a wing of TIEs and ground vehicles are also nice. The numbers of AT-AT's will also be higher than the number of comparable heavy tanks for the IoM given that each ISD carried twenty of them and twenty times twenty-five thousand is five-hundred thousand AT-AT's. Given that many guard companies don't even get transports and need to walk on foot and a Heavy Tank company like the Teutonian 19th only have 4 super heavy tanks to their name we can safely say that no matter the period Star Wars will have better and more evenly equipped ground forces.

When your normal forces aren't winning then the Astartes can't turn the tide alone.

As for the Blackstone fortresses one was lost, two are Chaos held, and the other three aren't often used in combat. Craft worlds are also similar in number and are as like to run as fight.

The Warp is hard to quantify, we know that it has trouble effecting the Tau and given that Star Wars has no Psykers it is likely they lack the mutation that 40k humans have that make them psychic. Thus they may not need to worry about direct possession. They don't enter the warp for FTL travel either so they really only need to worry about fighting daemons trying to board them and in real space.

Teleportation is something that you need to prove will work through shields that cover the whole vessel. Void shields tend to work like a real knight's shield in that you need to place them in front of the attack and there are gaps.

The GEoM is worshiped as a god, but that doesn't make the Imperium more unified. They can't even communicate fast enough to avoid sending resources to reclaim worlds long since dead. No Star Wars government has ever lost a planet to incompetence, though one set of records was tampered with by Palpatine. Also the lords of Terra often squabble and one faction watches the other who is in turn watched by a third and one hand often slaps the other while the third has no idea anything is happening.

Numberless means the author is too lazy to set a number, however we know that a typical battlefleet is between 50 and 75 ships and that these are further divided in battlegroups of smaller numbers. So assuming that they are typically divided five times and that these groups are always going to be full strength for a major battle that means that the battle in the Gothic sector only involved 300 ships per side and many of those were likely smaller escorts. The battle of Coruscant had over two-thousand ships a side with tens to hundreds of thousands of fighters total engaged over the planet. This shows a level of force concentration that 40k could never have. Not one fleet or one sector in 40k could hold off a thousand Venators along with Acclamators, Dreadnought-class Cruisers, Carrack-class Light Cruisers, and Victory-class Star Destroyers. Nor could they even send word to gather a large enough force to fight this before the fleet was halfway across the galaxy crushing another fleet.

The Empire has at least 25,000 ISD's as well as both larger and smaller support vessels. Publius had some good data on the overall state of Star Wars fleet counts and he came up with number of 24 ISD's per sector fleet with ~1,600 other combat craft meaning that at the low end we would have 25,000 ISD's and 1,665,600 other combat craft just from sector groups. Toss in ships that don't fit into these groups and that number gets much large. Add in warships that protect Imperial worlds that aren't part of Imperial fleets and... well you get the picture. If the fleet was built up over even say 40 years that is 114 ships per day. Unlike 40k these ships will all be new and not cobbled together designs or rebuilt hulks. The weapons are going to be computer guided and not hand loaded and aimed. There will not be steam powered lifts, cog wheels, and an engine room run and repaired by ritual because the family doesn't understand it but has lived for several generations on the same ship.

As for scale, Star Wars has fought and recovered from more Galaxy spanning wars than 40k has in less time.

I seem to remember in episode 3 Clones are reloading weapons by hand, and the 'machine spirit' guides shots, which is probably computer tracking, but as it is we are off topic , this is Nids V. SW not IoM V. SW

Emperors Faithful wrote:So, Canadian 5th, done trying to start a mud-slinging contest? Good.

Done being all high and mighty? I somehow doubt it...

Last I checked the Star Wars worlds don't have to be logged in and make tributes to a central authority. The Imperium is very impressive in that regards.

Most worlds still raise a standing army and I have shown that at minimum Wars can build 114 ships a day and at least 1,250 ISD's per year, and this is in peacetime. In war they built and lost thousands of Venators and Acclamators over the course of a year.

The Imperium has terrifying weapons of their own, ones that fulfill the goals that a SW super weapon would hope to achieve.

Going to show that they IoM can build a weapon capable of going toe to toe with a Death Star?

The only real advantage SW has would be speed. This advantage is outweighed by the fact that they appear to be inferior in all other naval aspects. And that they have the combat effectiveness of a limp turnip, with no hope of securing planetary resources, and hence no chance of refuelling and not dieing if in Imperial Territory.

You're now going to show that a troop transport not meant for front line combat in 40k can sling 200 Gigatons per second worth of firepower, or you will concede.

Back to the issue of Tyranids. Has anyone actually addressed the problem of genestealers hitchiking on Star Wars transports? SW space transit is much less regulated than Imperial travel, and much faster, so wouldn't a genestealer infestation spread like wildfire?

I have addressed it several times. First, in the Clone Wars era they would have no chance of gaining access to any military vessel as all clones would have the same DNA and genestealer mutations would show up in even a basic medical test given that a hand held scanner can instantly do detailed blood work in TPM. Given that they are hitting the very outer rim in the OP's scenario they would either hit an important shipyard or the ass end of nowhere like Tatooine. One would likely kill the spores and the other would leave them hard pressed to gain access to a ship.

Also, genestealers don't pose the same threat level as other outbreaks of disease and mutation that have been dealt with in Star Wars. From the Rakghoul plague, to the Yuuzhan Vong (versus a much weaker government and military) Star Wars has defeated worse than the Tyranids.

Is this every tyranid fleet encountered at the same time entering SW?

Or just one fleet at a time?

If its the former, the nids would build too much of a momentum by destroying the fringe worlds without encountering significant resistance. They will eventually hit a brick wall in the form of all the SW fleets, but that is assuming they are all going in the same direction, if the 'nid fleet split up, they could become too powerful in their own right.

I think someone else mentioned the size difference between the star wars ships and the Imperium fleets, the smallest, weakest Imperial escort is the same size as a star destroyer. A single hive fleet has destroyed entire segmentum fleets. So if a segmentum fleet would destroy a SW fleet, then wouldn't the nids beat the SW fleets?

Segmentum fleet > SW fleet
Segmentum fleet > Nid fleet
SW fleet > Nid fleet

Simples

Wardragoon wrote:I seem to remember in episode 3 Clones are reloading weapons by hand, and the 'machine spirit' guides shots, which is probably computer tracking, but as it is we are off topic , this is Nids V. SW not IoM V. SW

You recall wrongly, clones were manning the guns at a firing station, but both the Republic and CIS weapons were automatically loaded.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:So, Canadian 5th, done trying to start a mud-slinging contest? Good.

Done being all high and mighty? I somehow doubt it...

If you can't be civil when you're having a discussion about which Science Fiction Universe has the bigger penis, this forum probably isn't for you.

Last I checked the Star Wars worlds don't have to be logged in and make tributes to a central authority. The Imperium is very impressive in that regards.

Most worlds still raise a standing army

Source. And that means showing their capability beyond that of just a glorified police force.

and I have shown that at minimum Wars can build 114 ships a day and at least 1,250 ISD's per year, and this is in peacetime. In war they built and lost thousands of Venators and Acclamators over the course of a year.

And? The Imperium not only has bigger ships, but also more of them.

The Imperium has terrifying weapons of their own, ones that fulfill the goals that a SW super weapon would hope to achieve.

Going to show that they IoM can build a weapon capable of going toe to toe with a Death Star?

Whatever for? They can just teleport some Terminators onto your fully armed and operational battle station and work from there.

The only real advantage SW has would be speed. This advantage is outweighed by the fact that they appear to be inferior in all other naval aspects. And that they have the combat effectiveness of a limp turnip, with no hope of securing planetary resources, and hence no chance of refuelling and not dieing if in Imperial Territory.

You're now going to show that a troop transport not meant for front line combat in 40k can sling 200 Gigatons per second worth of firepower, or you will concede.

Eh?

What does the capability of troop transports (where you have hilariously compared AT-ATs to Titans) have to do with the placidness of Star Wars ground combat?

Back to the issue of Tyranids. Has anyone actually addressed the problem of genestealers hitchiking on Star Wars transports? SW space transit is much less regulated than Imperial travel, and much faster, so wouldn't a genestealer infestation spread like wildfire?

I have addressed it several times. First, in the Clone Wars era they would have no chance of gaining access to any military vessel as all clones would have the same DNA and genestealer mutations would show up in even a basic medical test given that a hand held scanner can instantly do detailed blood work in TPM.

Why corrupt the clones when they can just stow away and hit the motherload when they pull into a huge population centre like Coruscant. And from one planet, as more and more ships that land there pick up hitch-hikers, the infestation would rapidly spread across the galaxy.

Given that they are hitting the very outer rim in the OP's scenario they would either hit an important shipyard or the ass end of nowhere like Tatooine. One would likely kill the spores and the other would leave them hard pressed to gain access to a ship.

This is the equivalent of waving a stick at an argument and hoping it will go away. You are now going to show how genestealers docking in Coruscant would not screw the planet over, or you will concede.

Also, genestealers don't pose the same threat level as other outbreaks of disease and mutation that have been dealt with in Star Wars. From the Rakghoul plague, to the Yuuzhan Vong (versus a much weaker government and military) Star Wars has defeated worse than the Tyranids.

How were the Yuuzhan Vong a worse threat than genestealers?
The Rakghoul plauge maybe, which reminded me of Chaos Spawn . But it didn't spread in the same manner as the genestealers. The problem with the Rakghoul plauge is that often the ship was entirely lost to it, no piloting or anything as the derelict ship drifted around in space and the monsters starved away. With the genestealers, much of the time the crew won't even know they're there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:I seem to remember in episode 3 Clones are reloading weapons by hand, and the 'machine spirit' guides shots, which is probably computer tracking, but as it is we are off topic , this is Nids V. SW not IoM V. SW

You recall wrongly, clones were manning the guns at a firing station, but both the Republic and CIS weapons were automatically loaded.

In episode 3 the droids were reloading the ship's guns by hand.

i think that were all forgetting the point here. what would win the empire (warhammer gantasy) or the empire (star wars). (add in sarcasam) Cause im pretty sure the empire (fantasy) would win. cause they would invent a steam powered battle ship!!!!!!!!

Tech Guard wrote:i think that were all forgetting the point here. what would win the empire (warhammer gantasy) or the empire (star wars). (add in sarcasam) Cause im pretty sure the empire (fantasy) would win. cause they would invent a steam powered battle ship!!!!!!!!

I think that were all forgetting the point here. what would win george bush (jnr) or tony blair (british). Cause im pretty sure george bush (jnr) would win. cause blair is a pansy

Capital letters be damned

Holy hell, I just imagined a Sigmar Priest crashing a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSUALT TRANSPORT into the Death Star.


I need new pants.

Canadian 5th wrote:
Ground forces rarely matter unless you need to capture a ground target. Win in space and the ground battle never happens because one side can't land troops. Even if they do make landfall then you get to deal with titan level AT-AT's, XR-85 tank droids, and a great availability of both air and space support. Prefabricated garrisons with full shields, a wing of TIEs and ground vehicles are also nice. The numbers of AT-AT's will also be higher than the number of comparable heavy tanks for the IoM given that each ISD carried twenty of them and twenty times twenty-five thousand is five-hundred thousand AT-AT's. Given that many guard companies don't even get transports and need to walk on foot and a Heavy Tank company like the Teutonian 19th only have 4 super heavy tanks to their name we can safely say that no matter the period Star Wars will have better and more evenly equipped ground forces.

And I bet that the Tau can make short work of any SW vehicles, not to mention ground forces. And the fact that 40k infantry is better equipped and trained then any SW troopers. And just a sheer number of Ork infantry or Guard that can be deployed. SW troopers ( some ) may have better equipment, but 40k have quantity that SW don't have. 40k als ohave cc troops that SW in Clone Wars and Imperial rea lack, they are equipped with teleporters, jump packs, jet packs... 40k also have battlesuits and heavy tactical armors. And 40k weapons are better in dealing damage than SW weapons and they are more practical. And for SW armor, AT-AT get shot in the head from Baneblade or Lascannon shot in the leg, they are also equipped with Hydras for air and others.... In terms of ground combat 40k rapes SW.

When your normal forces aren't winning then the Astartes can't turn the tide alone.

How many times did we see Astartes winning the impossible even when defeat is assured? They can't do it alone, but they can hit so hard and so fast that the enemy will be obliterated in the end. Just see Armageddon war, Tarsis Ultra and others...

As for the Blackstone fortresses one was lost, two are Chaos held, and the other three aren't often used in combat. Craft worlds are also similar in number and are as like to run as fight.

You really dig yourself in here. And how many of those Superweapons SW have? DS is destroyed, few of those were destroyed even before that. Nobody knows how many Blackstone fortresses are in the galaxy, Eldar have at least dosen strong Craftworlds in the galaxy, and I don't want to start with Necron Dommsday Monoliths...

The Warp is hard to quantify, we know that it has trouble effecting the Tau and given that Star Wars has no Psykers it is likely they lack the mutation that 40k humans have that make them psychic. Thus they may not need to worry about direct possession. They don't enter the warp for FTL travel either so they really only need to worry about fighting daemons trying to board them and in real space.

Humans are the most numerous race in SW, and they are all corruptible. In the end, Daemons only need flesh and souls of the mortals. They don't possess - they kill and eat and torture. And because 99% of them are melle specialist, SW troopers have little chance against them in combat.

Teleportation is something that you need to prove will work through shields that cover the whole vessel. Void shields tend to work like a real knight's shield in that you need to place them in front of the attack and there are gaps.

Easy. Normal teleportation work in a way that our body is break down into molecules and atoms and transported via incredible speeds across space. This can't go trough any shields.
40k teleportation is different. Here we don't break down - we enter warp. And since warp is another universe, there in no shield bypass really, just reappearing from another universe on the specific place. And since they don't have anything to do with our universe, the shields are useless.

The GEoM is worshiped as a god, but that doesn't make the Imperium more unified. They can't even communicate fast enough to avoid sending resources to reclaim worlds long since dead. No Star Wars government has ever lost a planet to incompetence, though one set of records was tampered with by Palpatine. Also the lords of Terra often squabble and one faction watches the other who is in turn watched by a third and one hand often slaps the other while the third has no idea anything is happening.

The Imperium isn't perfect but it is the situation and need that push Human race toward unity. And faith alone is keeping them together, because all bear the moral obligation to a man who sacrifice everything for them to have a chance to live. And Imperium is watched by Inquisition who send assassins, troops and other where is needed.

Numberless means the author is too lazy to set a number, however we know that a typical battlefleet is between 50 and 75 ships and that these are further divided in battlegroups of smaller numbers. So assuming that they are typically divided five times and that these groups are always going to be full strength for a major battle that means that the battle in the Gothic sector only involved 300 ships per side and many of those were likely smaller escorts. The battle of Coruscant had over two-thousand ships a side with tens to hundreds of thousands of fighters total engaged over the planet. This shows a level of force concentration that 40k could never have. Not one fleet or one sector in 40k could hold off a thousand Venators along with Acclamators, Dreadnought-class Cruisers, Carrack-class Light Cruisers, and Victory-class Star Destroyers. Nor could they even send word to gather a large enough force to fight this before the fleet was halfway across the galaxy crushing another fleet.

Numberless means that worlds in 40k are more populated than SW ( just see Ork worlds ). And there are so many variables and such that it is impossible to number them. Same goes for ships. You can't say: "typical battlefleet is between 50 and 75 ships" when we don't know how many ships Imperial Navy truly have, at Battle for Macragge IN had two hundred warships but it was also stated that every star system in 40k that belongs to the Imperium must have at least 10-15 ships for protection. And Segmentum planets ( like Baka ) have even more due to strategic importance. x1.000.000 planets and you get ridiculous number of ships. And that one battle was fought with Republic and Separatist Navy throwing EVERYTHING they got at one another, if I recall correctly CIS lost after that because they lack fleet. And I even didn't mentioned other races, Necron one fleet can own every SW fleet triple their numbers...

The Empire has at least 25,000 ISD's as well as both larger and smaller support vessels. Publius had some good data on the overall state of Star Wars fleet counts and he came up with number of 24 ISD's per sector fleet with ~1,600 other combat craft meaning that at the low end we would have 25,000 ISD's and 1,665,600 other combat craft just from sector groups. Toss in ships that don't fit into these groups and that number gets much large. Add in warships that protect Imperial worlds that aren't part of Imperial fleets and... well you get the picture. If the fleet was built up over even say 40 years that is 114 ships per day. Unlike 40k these ships will all be new and not cobbled together designs or rebuilt hulks. The weapons are going to be computer guided and not hand loaded and aimed. There will not be steam powered lifts, cog wheels, and an engine room run and repaired by ritual because the family doesn't understand it but has lived for several generations on the same ship.

And set that in 120.000 light years galaxy and that is poor number for number of worlds they have to protect. I already said that IoM have average 10-15 ships per system + more ships at Segmentum capital planets. Eldar have Craftworlds size of Earth and Jupiter, Necrons have ships that can phase out and in wherever they want, Tyranids have limitless number of ships due to reproduction in space... And Imperial ships aren't that primitive, if you didn't know they use plasma reactors and warp engine for their power and travel needs, not coal...

As for scale, Star Wars has fought and recovered from more Galaxy spanning wars than 40k has in less time.

Original War with Necrons, Fall of the Eldar, Horus Heresy and after that 10.000 years of constant warfare...
40k scale is WAY bigger than SW when it comes to warfare...

Just admit it, in terms of epicnes, warfare and all other 40k is way better.... And Star Wars lack one thing that other sci-fi has: Earth.

(I am talking about ground troops here). oh and lets compare clone troops to imp guard not tau. they have laser weapons, armour but get slammed by nids all the time (unless your tanith!!). have a shet house bs and a shet house weapon, so in my opinoin nid troops would smash. but then lets gets to vehicles. lets call the republic gunship a valkyrie for cross reference. nid flyers would smah this as they would simply out number. flying gaunts could throw themselves into the engines and force them to crash. lets combare an at-te to a leman russ, there are more carnifexs than those things!!!. and once a tide swarms they are useless. once again my opion so don't get to upset. but still your opinion would be cool!!!!!

Toastedandy wrote:Is this every tyranid fleet encountered at the same time entering SW?

Or just one fleet at a time?

If its the former, the nids would build too much of a momentum by destroying the fringe worlds without encountering significant resistance. They will eventually hit a brick wall in the form of all the SW fleets, but that is assuming they are all going in the same direction, if the 'nid fleet split up, they could become too powerful in their own right.

I think someone else mentioned the size difference between the star wars ships and the Imperium fleets, the smallest, weakest Imperial escort is the same size as a star destroyer. A single hive fleet has destroyed entire segmentum fleets. So if a segmentum fleet would destroy a SW fleet, then wouldn't the nids beat the SW fleets?

Segmentum fleet > SW fleet
Segmentum fleet > Nid fleet
SW fleet > Nid fleet

Simples

It's two hive fleets coming upon a battle between a Republic and CIS fleet. The OP seems to think that both sides would be stupid enough to think the other released a bio plague on a rim world which is a bit of a farce so it's more likely, that Palpatine, knowing neither side did it, would stage a mock battle to draw the enemy in. Given that we've seen several large scale fleet battles with hundreds of ships on each side in the Clone Wars it would be likely that a force at equal to that at the battle of Kashyyyk would be sent out.

This means at least 25 Acclamators, an equal number of Venators, larger numbers of 60m long landing craft and the like. Given that it's less likely to be a ground battle the landing craft on the Republic side would likely be replaced with Corvettes, and the Acclamators with more Venators and/or Victory-class Star Destroyers. Assuming something close to forty Venators and ten Victories that gives the Republic side at least 17,000 fighters, hundreds of combat capable shuttles and assault transports, and a large compliment of infantry to repel any boarders.

On the CIS side a Munificent-class Star Frigate has a pair of main guns able to melt a 1,000 kilometer diameter ice moon. 1 gram of ice takes 314 joules of energy to melt, 1 cubic meter of ice weighs 918.7 kilograms, the moon is at least 2.94e 10^17 cubic meters. Thus it takes (8.477e 10^25) 84,769,999,100,000,000,000,000,000 joules to melt it. This means that each weapon puts out, at maximum yield, around ten yottatons of energy or 10 trillion megatons of energy. For reference the K–T extinction event released only 10,000,000 megatons of energy. Even so it is said that it takes 3 of these ships to win an engagement with a Venator or Victory class Star Destroyer. Recusant-class Light Destroyers needed to engage Venators and VSD's with between 4 and 6 vessels to win, a Providence-class Destroyers could fight these ships evenly.

This data can be verified on page 15 of the Episode three Incredible Cross Sections book, and with searches on the density and melting energy needed for water ice.

Assuming roughly equal fleet strength at Kashyyyk this means that the Republic will have roughly 40 Venators and 10 VSD's with dozens of Corvette sized vessels and the CIS will have at least 10 Providence-class ships, 60 Munificent-class Ships, and 100 Recusant-class ships. This will leave the Republic with 17,000+ fighters and other small craft and the CIS with 24,000+ fighters and other small craft. I doubt any Tyranid fleet can deal with such a force.

Given that a ship-of-the-line in Star Wars can take yottatons of energy before dying you will now need to show that either an IoM ship or a Tyranid ship is going to be able to dish and take energies on this same level.

Brother Coa wrote: it was also stated that every star system in 40k that belongs to the Imperium must have at least 10-15 ships for protection.

Citation needed. Where is this stated?

And yet he makes no reference to other arguments in the thread? Coolio.

Thats lots of pretty numbers, but doesnt prove much. Clone wars armies were built up over years, it wasn't like there was no planning involved. You seem to think that they would always have these fleets at there disposle, while its far more likely they would be to thinly spread to deal with the encroaching hive fleets. A hive fleet is made up of MILLIONs of ships. As said before the star destoryer (fairly powerful ship that it is) pales in comparison to the smallest weakest escort class ship in the Imperium, which the nids trounce.

The fleet your quoting would be destoryed by the sheer power of a segmentum fleet, which a nid hive fleet can destroy easily.

when they number that small amont of ships canadian 5th no wonder the star wars system is boned nids would number millions ov bio ships so how could 300 small cruisers do anything.

Source. And that means showing their capability beyond that of just a glorified police force.

To name a few we have the Bacrana System Defense Force, the Coruscant Security Force, the Corellian Defense Forces Space Service, the Hapan fleets, the Hutt fleets, and the Corporate Sector Authority's vessels.

And? The Imperium not only has bigger ships, but also more of them.

Going to prove this now are we? With numbers and not hyperbolic statements.

Whatever for? They can just teleport some Terminators onto your fully armed and operational battle station and work from there.

You're going to show the range on IoM teleporters now, as well as showing that they work through a closed bubble style hull hugging shield.

Eh?

What does the capability of troop transports (where you have hilariously compared AT-ATs to Titans) have to do with the placidness of Star Wars ground combat?

If you lose in space you never fight on the ground. 40k loses in space because a thousand meter long frigate can fire yottaton yield main weapons.

Why corrupt the clones when they can just stow away and hit the motherload when they pull into a huge population centre like Coruscant. And from one planet, as more and more ships that land there pick up hitch-hikers, the infestation would rapidly spread across the galaxy.

They will have nav data for such a jump and manage to pass customs how exactly?

This is the equivalent of waving a stick at an argument and hoping it will go away. You are now going to show how genestealers docking in Coruscant would not screw the planet over, or you will concede.

I can't prove a negative, I can't show they will fail to do anything. You will need to prove they can get there and cause enough trouble that a world of trillions has issues dealing with it. Burden of proof is on you.

How were the Yuuzhan Vong a worse threat than genestealers?
The Rakghoul plauge maybe, which reminded me of Chaos Spawn . But it didn't spread in the same manner as the genestealers. The problem with the Rakghoul plauge is that often the ship was entirely lost to it, no piloting or anything as the derelict ship drifted around in space and the monsters starved away. With the genestealers, much of the time the crew won't even know they're there.

The Vong had infiltrators that arrived decades before the main fleet that caused conflicts within the already weak New Republic government. This sounds like exactly what genestealers do except that against the more centralized government of the Old Republic under Palpatine and the fact that he personally knows the main leaders of both sides and has cloned soldiers and droid armies loyal to him and only him means that the genestealers will do what exactly? Breed a bit and kill a few million people?

In episode 3 the droids were reloading the ship's guns by hand.

Wrong we see the inside of the ship and the guns are being fed from a belt feed. We do see spare shells stacked near the guns, but that is likely in the event of damage to the main feed system. These are also projectile weapons, the energy weapons don't need such a system at all.

Canadian 5th: yes but we do see empty shell casings fall out the back of the guns

Raxmei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote: it was also stated that every star system in 40k that belongs to the Imperium must have at least 10-15 ships for protection.

Citation needed. Where is this stated?

"The combined merchant fleets compose almost 90% of all the interstellar spacecraft in the Imperium."
"The civil fleets contain privately-owned interstellar craft operating along routes liscensed by the fleet authorities."
"The Warfleets of the Imperial Navy are based around the five Segmentum Fortress planets. From these worlds the fleets are organised and sent to guard the various sectors and subsectors of that region."

Kan will tell toy where can you find that. Shot story = Every planet has several ships ( lightly armed ) for planet protection, and if they are in trouble they can ask for Imperial Navy help ( witch, as you can seen their ships patrol subsectors constantly. ).

Canadian 5th wrote:

Source. And that means showing their capability beyond that of just a glorified police force.

To name a few we have the Bacrana System Defense Force, the Coruscant Security Force, the Corellian Defense Forces Space Service, the Hapan fleets, the Hutt fleets, and the Corporate Sector Authority's vessels.

What about the majority of the planets? These are just the important planets armies, easily swept aside by the might of the hive

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote: it was also stated that every star system in 40k that belongs to the Imperium must have at least 10-15 ships for protection.

Citation needed. Where is this stated?

"The combined merchant fleets compose almost 90% of all the interstellar spacecraft in the Imperium."
"The civil fleets contain privately-owned interstellar craft operating along routes liscensed by the fleet authorities."
"The Warfleets of the Imperial Navy are based around the five Segmentum Fortress planets. From these worlds the fleets are organised and sent to guard the various sectors and subsectors of that region."

Kan will tell toy where can you find that. Shot story = Every planet has several ships ( lightly armed ) for planet protection, and if they are in trouble they can ask for Imperial Navy help ( witch, as you can seen their ships patrol subsectors constantly. ).

None of that actually tells you that every star system in the Imperium has 10-15 ships for protection.

Raxmei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote: it was also stated that every star system in 40k that belongs to the Imperium must have at least 10-15 ships for protection.

Citation needed. Where is this stated?

"The combined merchant fleets compose almost 90% of all the interstellar spacecraft in the Imperium."
"The civil fleets contain privately-owned interstellar craft operating along routes liscensed by the fleet authorities."
"The Warfleets of the Imperial Navy are based around the five Segmentum Fortress planets. From these worlds the fleets are organised and sent to guard the various sectors and subsectors of that region."

Kan will tell toy where can you find that. Shot story = Every planet has several ships ( lightly armed ) for planet protection, and if they are in trouble they can ask for Imperial Navy help ( witch, as you can seen their ships patrol subsectors constantly. ).

None of that actually tells you that every star system in the Imperium has 10-15 ships for protection.

Then go read Battlefleet Gothic...

Brother Coa wrote:And I bet that the Tau can make short work of any SW vehicles, not to mention ground forces. And the fact that 40k infantry is better equipped and trained then any SW troopers. And just a sheer number of Ork infantry or Guard that can be deployed. SW troopers ( some ) may have better equipment, but 40k have quantity that SW don't have. 40k als ohave cc troops that SW in Clone Wars and Imperial rea lack, they are equipped with teleporters, jump packs, jet packs... 40k also have battlesuits and heavy tactical armors. And 40k weapons are better in dealing damage than SW weapons and they are more practical. And for SW armor, AT-AT get shot in the head from Baneblade or Lascannon shot in the leg, they are also equipped with Hydras for air and others.... In terms of ground combat 40k rapes SW.

You bet, so you can't or won't do the math then?

You're also going to show that I was wrong when I showed that the GE/Republic can recruit billions of troops if they only take 1% of combat ready people from 0.1% of their worlds. Assuming that the million worlds mentioned are all tax paying member worlds and that the average galactic population is around 17 billion per planet, and that only 1% are recruited and of them half wash out then the GE/Republic military could swell to as large as 85 trillion soldiers without cloning or droid production and without taking much of a dent out of the galactic population. Given that in the US the population that could be brought into service is about 40% of the population Star Wars could raise a force as large as 425 trillion soldiers while taking only 5% of the population to fight and without cloning or droids, they can replace at least 42 trillion soldiers just with people coming of age to serve as well.

Also I expect you to show that close combat will work against a foe that fights in a modern style, (ie not WWI style trenches as we see in Gaunts Ghots and many other sources). You will also show that a Lascannon is stronger than the blasters on the Snow Speeders at Hoth.

How many times did we see Astartes winning the impossible even when defeat is assured? They can't do it alone, but they can hit so hard and so fast that the enemy will be obliterated in the end. Just see Armageddon war, Tarsis Ultra and others...

They also lose such as at Ultramar. Many battles we see them in are propaganda stories, you rarely see reports of their loses in any detail.

You really dig yourself in here. And how many of those Superweapons SW have? DS is destroyed, few of those were destroyed even before that. Nobody knows how many Blackstone fortresses are in the galaxy, Eldar have at least dosen strong Craftworlds in the galaxy, and I don't want to start with Necron Dommsday Monoliths...

The DS is still alive and well in the OP's scenario, though it might not yet be completed. It was also killed by a shot that only Luke could have made and that 40k lacks the weapons to accomplish. When they have missiles that small pulling 72,000G turns call me.

The Eldar often don't fight, you can use a weapon you don't have, and the Necrons are still napping.

Humans are the most numerous race in SW, and they are all corruptible. In the end, Daemons only need flesh and souls of the mortals. They don't possess - they kill and eat and torture. And because 99% of them are melle specialist, SW troopers have little chance against them in combat.

You're going to prove that Star Wars humans and 40k humans are the same now. Given that 40k humans are said to have been mutated to be more psychic and this more corruptible by the Old Ones this will be rather hard.

Easy. Normal teleportation work in a way that our body is break down into molecules and atoms and transported via incredible speeds across space. This can't go trough any shields.
40k teleportation is different. Here we don't break down - we enter warp. And since warp is another universe, there in no shield bypass really, just reappearing from another universe on the specific place. And since they don't have anything to do with our universe, the shields are useless.

Shields specifically block energy and things in hyperspace can be blocked by shields showing that Star Wars shields do block energy and matter from other universes. next.

Numberless means that worlds in 40k are more populated than SW ( just see Ork worlds ). And there are so many variables and such that it is impossible to number them. Same goes for ships. You can't say: "typical battlefleet is between 50 and 75 ships" when we don't know how many ships Imperial Navy truly have, at Battle for Macragge IN had two hundred warships but it was also stated that every star system in 40k that belongs to the Imperium must have at least 10-15 ships for protection. And Segmentum planets ( like Baka ) have even more due to strategic importance. x1.000.000 planets and you get ridiculous number of ships. And that one battle was fought with Republic and Separatist Navy throwing EVERYTHING they got at one another, if I recall correctly CIS lost after that because they lack fleet. And I even didn't mentioned other races, Necron one fleet can own every SW fleet triple their numbers...

Provide a source for the 10 to 15 ship number. Show that they have every assembled a fleet of 2,000+ warships. Also the CIS lost because Palpatine had accomplished his goal and even then small pockets of the CIS kept fighting for a while not being sure things were really done.

And set that in 120.000 light years galaxy and that is poor number for number of worlds they have to protect. I already said that IoM have average 10-15 ships per system + more ships at Segmentum capital planets. Eldar have Craftworlds size of Earth and Jupiter, Necrons have ships that can phase out and in wherever they want, Tyranids have limitless number of ships due to reproduction in space... And Imperial ships aren't that primitive, if you didn't know they use plasma reactors and warp engine for their power and travel needs, not coal...

I've also shown that that is for GE sector fleets only. This doesn't count PDF forces and other large fleets that the Hutts, Hapans, CSA, Corellians, and Chiss have.

Original War with Necrons, Fall of the Eldar, Horus Heresy and after that 10.000 years of constant warfare...
40k scale is WAY bigger than SW when it comes to warfare...

Just admit it, in terms of epicnes, warfare and all other 40k is way better.... And Star Wars lack one thing that other sci-fi has: Earth.

This proves nothing either way and I think your no numbers approach is lame. Find actual citations for your numbers as I have done.


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Tech Guard wrote:Canadian 5th: yes but we do see empty shell casings fall out the back of the guns

So, that's moving spent casings not loading the weapon.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Source. And that means showing their capability beyond that of just a glorified police force.

To name a few we have the Bacrana System Defense Force, the Coruscant Security Force, the Corellian Defense Forces Space Service, the Hapan fleets, the Hutt fleets, and the Corporate Sector Authority's vessels.

That was hilarious. Seriously, that cracked me up. How do any of these pathetic examples (note: I am attacking the effectiveness of the examples not you ) measure up to the balls-droppingly hardcore and numerous Imperial Guard that can crush them underfoot like Megatron crushes baby pandas?

And? The Imperium not only has bigger ships, but also more of them.

Going to prove this now are we? With numbers and not hyperbolic statements.

Boom Headshot.

Whatever for? They can just teleport some Terminators onto your fully armed and operational battle station and work from there.

You're going to show the range on IoM teleporters now, as well as showing that they work through a closed bubble style hull hugging shield.

Play BFG. Comprehend vast distances in space. Have epiphany.


Just joking, to launch Teleportation assualt the ships have to be fairly close. Within range of most of the Imperium's barrage weapons.

Eh?

What does the capability of troop transports (where you have hilariously compared AT-ATs to Titans) have to do with the placidness of Star Wars ground combat?

If you lose in space you never fight on the ground. 40k loses in space because a thousand meter long frigate can fire yottaton yield main weapons.

Are you forgetting that planets have resources and to control resources you'd need to control the planet?

Cool, so you obliterate a Hive City (though a fe noteworthy exceptions actually have Shields that can resist Orbital Bombardments). No chance in hell of getting anything useful from there anytime soon. And the Imperium has no such restrictions. I can see it now, the Flesh Tearers company landing outside the head of the Galactic Empire. A day that will live in infamy...

Why corrupt the clones when they can just stow away and hit the motherload when they pull into a huge population centre like Coruscant. And from one planet, as more and more ships that land there pick up hitch-hikers, the infestation would rapidly spread across the galaxy.

They will have nav data for such a jump and manage to pass customs how exactly?

What are you talking about? They're stowing away. Like genestealers do.

This is the equivalent of waving a stick at an argument and hoping it will go away. You are now going to show how genestealers docking in Coruscant would not screw the planet over, or you will concede.

I can't prove a negative, I can't show they will fail to do anything. You will need to prove they can get there and cause enough trouble that a world of trillions has issues dealing with it. Burden of proof is on you.

How were the Yuuzhan Vong a worse threat than genestealers?
The Rakghoul plauge maybe, which reminded me of Chaos Spawn . But it didn't spread in the same manner as the genestealers. The problem with the Rakghoul plauge is that often the ship was entirely lost to it, no piloting or anything as the derelict ship drifted around in space and the monsters starved away. With the genestealers, much of the time the crew won't even know they're there.

The Vong had infiltrators that arrived decades before the main fleet that caused conflicts within the already weak New Republic government. This sounds like exactly what genestealers do except that against the more centralized government of the Old Republic under Palpatine and the fact that he personally knows the main leaders of both sides and has cloned soldiers and droid armies loyal to him and only him means that the genestealers will do what exactly? Breed a bit and kill a few million people?

Right, becuase everytime a genestealer cult has sprouted up unchecked it's ended just fine and dandy for everyone involved. Please listen to yourself. They bring down Hive Worlds.

In episode 3 the droids were reloading the ship's guns by hand.

Wrong we see the inside of the ship and the guns are being fed from a belt feed. We do see spare shells stacked near the guns, but that is likely in the event of damage to the main feed system. These are also projectile weapons, the energy weapons don't need such a system at all.

Yes, energy weapons wouldn't need it. Also, does the droid tank have a belt feed or is there a loader?

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote: it was also stated that every star system in 40k that belongs to the Imperium must have at least 10-15 ships for protection.

Citation needed. Where is this stated?

"The combined merchant fleets compose almost 90% of all the interstellar spacecraft in the Imperium."
"The civil fleets contain privately-owned interstellar craft operating along routes liscensed by the fleet authorities."
"The Warfleets of the Imperial Navy are based around the five Segmentum Fortress planets. From these worlds the fleets are organised and sent to guard the various sectors and subsectors of that region."

Kan will tell toy where can you find that. Shot story = Every planet has several ships ( lightly armed ) for planet protection, and if they are in trouble they can ask for Imperial Navy help ( witch, as you can seen their ships patrol subsectors constantly. ).

Where is the 10-15 ship number here again?

Also, sector fleets can take days or longer to respond and often the response is still only a small group of ships. Many battles are fought between less than half a dozen warships per side as can be seen in book one of the Gaunt's Ghosts series.


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Toastedandy wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Source. And that means showing their capability beyond that of just a glorified police force.

To name a few we have the Bacrana System Defense Force, the Coruscant Security Force, the Corellian Defense Forces Space Service, the Hapan fleets, the Hutt fleets, and the Corporate Sector Authority's vessels.

What about the majority of the planets? These are just the important planets armies, easily swept aside by the might of the hive

You're not going to find a fleet list for some minor planet most of the time so I went for the sources that were easiest to find.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote: it was also stated that every star system in 40k that belongs to the Imperium must have at least 10-15 ships for protection.

Citation needed. Where is this stated?

"The combined merchant fleets compose almost 90% of all the interstellar spacecraft in the Imperium."
"The civil fleets contain privately-owned interstellar craft operating along routes liscensed by the fleet authorities."
"The Warfleets of the Imperial Navy are based around the five Segmentum Fortress planets. From these worlds the fleets are organised and sent to guard the various sectors and subsectors of that region."

Kan will tell toy where can you find that. Shot story = Every planet has several ships ( lightly armed ) for planet protection, and if they are in trouble they can ask for Imperial Navy help ( witch, as you can seen their ships patrol subsectors constantly. ).

None of that actually tells you that every star system in the Imperium has 10-15 ships for protection.

Then go read Battlefleet Gothic...

If it's so easy then please, give us a page number as I have done for the material I sourced from the ICS.

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:None of that actually tells you that every star system in the Imperium has 10-15 ships for protection.

Then go read Battlefleet Gothic...

I have read Battlefleet Gothic. It does not support your position. You have claimed that it is stated that every world belonging to the Imperium has 10-15 ships for protection. As if there were some sort of statement somewhere stating something to that effect. If there really is such a statement you should be able to supply something better than a bunch of quotes saying completely different things and a book title.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Boom Headshot.

Because I think they missed it

Toastedandy wrote:Thats lots of pretty numbers, but doesnt prove much. Clone wars armies were built up over years, it wasn't like there was no planning involved. You seem to think that they would always have these fleets at there disposle, while its far more likely they would be to thinly spread to deal with the encroaching hive fleets. A hive fleet is made up of MILLIONs of ships. As said before the star destoryer (fairly powerful ship that it is) pales in comparison to the smallest weakest escort class ship in the Imperium, which the nids trounce.

The fleet your quoting would be destoryed by the sheer power of a segmentum fleet, which a nid hive fleet can destroy easily.

At least 1,000 ships of a single class were rolled out in a single year, likely less in the Clone Wars.

You're going to show an IoM fleet with Yottaton scale shielding and weapons now as well.

So...we win? ^_^

Toastedandy wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Boom Headshot.

Because I think they missed it

Imperial ships are large. This is not in dispute. What is in dispute is that they have firepower to match the Imperial side.