Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2012/06/20 18:00:18
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter. $175k goal acheived, free Angels for everyone!
Your basically putting in for the design of an entire expansion book w/3 armies and the first two units of those armies. Plus it seems normal for the cost between perks to go up as it gets closer to the end.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
2012/06/20 19:43:13
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter. $175k goal acheived, free Angels for everyone!
Am interested in this because the deal is awesome but comes at a really bad time. Sedition Wars kick starter and 40k 6th.
How are the Kings of War Rules compared to Fantasy 8th? Dunno anyone locally who plays Kings of War.
The Celestian army does sound cool. Would be interesting to see what these Battle nuns look like. Might make nice DCA conversions for my Sisters of Battle army.
How well do the undead work for a counts as warhammer fantasy vampire counts army say if I can't find anyone to play Kings of War with?
I saw some elves a friend bought and they really looked anorexic and not very compatible with GW.
I was considering getting the 1000 point undead army and then adding werewolves and something else to get to the $225 level. This sounds like an awesome deal as you get the undead vampiress as the leader and the undead standard bearer with lots of other extras.
Are the werewolves the proper size for GW Vargulfs?
Do they have a black coach equivelent?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/20 19:44:36
2012/06/20 20:06:49
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter. Only 4 days left! Pledge $225, get $700 of Mantic Swag!
scarletsquig wrote:Well, you'll be getting over $1000 of stuff for your $325 by the time this thing is over, so I'm sure you won't regret it!
Also, shifting old GW stuff is great for raising cash... every time there's a price rise it goes up in value, and more people on ebay want to buy it..
Do I get you right: You pledge 225$ and get merchandise worth 700$, you pledge 325$ and get merchandise worth 1000$.
How does Mantic raise funds when they sell the production of the next half year for basically production costs? Does that make economic sense? Or will the kickstarter hurt Mantic? Not sure if any other kickstarter sells their product for 30% retail price.
Well a lot of the cost of a miniature is in the initial up-front investment; marginal cost is quite low, most of the time (look at chinese recaster prices ^^ it's even more extreme on injection-molded polystyrene). They give everyone a motley assortment of units, which isn't really useful to just put on a table and play with. It's a good way to get people to collect more, though.
And a lot of it will ship Q2 2013. They'll have that money available for almost a year. That's worth something too; sizeable loans are hard to get for niche companies like mantic.
2012/06/20 20:19:11
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter. Only 4 days left! Pledge $225, get $700 of Mantic Swag!
scarletsquig wrote:Well, you'll be getting over $1000 of stuff for your $325 by the time this thing is over, so I'm sure you won't regret it!
Also, shifting old GW stuff is great for raising cash... every time there's a price rise it goes up in value, and more people on ebay want to buy it..
Do I get you right: You pledge 225$ and get merchandise worth 700$, you pledge 325$ and get merchandise worth 1000$.
How does Mantic raise funds when they sell the production of the next half year for basically production costs? Does that make economic sense? Or will the kickstarter hurt Mantic? Not sure if any other kickstarter sells their product for 30% retail price.
Wholesale to Retail markup on minis is between 43% and 47% on average, so I doubt they are losing much (is any) by running these deals on Kickstarter.
Considering they are the Manufacturer and not the Wholesaler.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/20 20:19:41
2012/06/20 21:12:30
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter. $175k goal acheived, free Angels for everyone!
Kirika wrote:Am interested in this because the deal is awesome but comes at a really bad time. Sedition Wars kick starter and 40k 6th.
In one way yes, although both this and the Sedition Wars kickstarters were cunningly timed to coincide with the GW price increase. I suppose you could argue that Sedition Wars is a board game, and 40k is a sci-fi game so they are not in competition with each other (at least directly)
How are the Kings of War Rules compared to Fantasy 8th? Dunno anyone locally who plays Kings of War.
Scroll up, there is a pretty good explanation from ScarletSquig regarding the ins and outs of the game. Can't help you with the second bit, although I will say that my local club has taken an interest in this - they are quite competitive-orientated, and like the sound of KoW compared to the more random nature of WFB 8th.
How well do the undead work for a counts as warhammer fantasy vampire counts army say if I can't find anyone to play Kings of War with?
I don't think there is a Vampire Counts player at my club who doesn't have Mantic core units in there somewhere. It was a deliberate business decision to make a lot of the units in Kings of War compatible with WFB - outside of a Games Workshop store itself, you should be fine using them. The flip side of this is that Mantic allows miniatures from other manufacturers even at their own official tournaments/events.
I saw some elves a friend bought and they really looked anorexic and not very compatible with GW.
Some of the KoW stuff (like the undead and perhaps Goblins) are very similar to GW's range in its design aesthetic. Others are different, most notably the Elves and Orcs. I guess it depends which design concept you prefer - the Mantic Elves are actually really nice little models when you see them in person, although they are not 'heroically scaled' like their GW counterparts and so perhaps don't mix that well. The same situation with the Orcs, which are more like the traditional D&D/Tolkien-esque fantasy Orc, rather than the Brian Nelson GW sculpt which has very different proportions. I guess it's nice that now you have an option of making a new army, and choosing whichever look you prefer.
Are the werewolves the proper size for GW Vargulfs?
Do they have a black coach equivelent?
I think there has only been concept art of the Werewolf so far. I would expect them to be a similar size, perhaps a little smaller, although that is just a guess!
I'm not sure about the black coach unfortunately.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/20 21:13:53
I'm looking forward to seeing just how far this Kickstarter goes. The Celestians look nifty. However, I really, really, really hope that the Battle Nuns aren't sexy. Female warriors in functional armor, without corsets or garter belts, would be a truly unique item and that would probably be enough to get me to start a new army.
ooooo... I like the metal face plates and armor. Thanks for the link!
edit: looking through the earlier updates, the beserkers riding brocks look very cool too! How well does Mantic follow through from the concept art to the model? When I think of Mantic, the first models that come to mind are those awkward small dragon cavalry figs; did they look promising in their concept stages? They've got some seriously good concept art and it would be great if they could stick close to it in quality.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/06/21 01:01:28
2012/06/21 00:37:46
Subject: Re:Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter - $200k goal - Celestian Battle Nuns - Free for all $100+ backers!
I hope some of the other bonuses are available for purchase. For example, I'm thinking about a $100 pledge, but want that skeleton standard bearer. Here's hoping!
2012/06/21 02:26:13
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter - $200k goal - Celestian Battle Nuns - Free for all $100+ backers!
This may be a stupid question but the deal just seems too good to be true. Units like the abyssal dwarves immortal guards and elven stormwind cavalry are already available on their website for significantly more than the $25 charged in the extras section of the kickstarter ($35 and $45 respectively). On top of that, they're in the buy one get one free category... so you get 10 stormwind cav for less than half the price of 5 currently??? The dwarven brock riders seem like a steal if you can get 10 dwarven cav figs for $25 with no tax and free shipping.
2012/06/21 06:02:21
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter - $200k goal - Celestian Battle Nuns - Free for all $100+ backers!
warboss wrote:This may be a stupid question but the deal just seems too good to be true. Units like the abyssal dwarves immortal guards and elven stormwind cavalry are already available on their website for significantly more than the $25 charged in the extras section of the kickstarter ($35 and $45 respectively). On top of that, they're in the buy one get one free category... so you get 10 stormwind cav for less than half the price of 5 currently??? The dwarven brock riders seem like a steal if you can get 10 dwarven cav figs for $25 with no tax and free shipping.
The reason is because the Immortal Guard and the Stormwind Calvary on the Mantic website are the existing metal (or hybrid) models. Some of the stretch goals have involved turning those units into full plastic units*. Which, for Mantic, results in about a 50% price drop.
*Sprue-less plastic, aka plastic resin, aka the not quite plastic plastic. But still loads cheaper/nicer than metal.
2012/06/21 06:05:49
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter - $200k goal - Celestian Battle Nuns - Free for all $100+ backers!
warboss wrote:This may be a stupid question but the deal just seems too good to be true. Units like the abyssal dwarves immortal guards and elven stormwind cavalry are already available on their website for significantly more than the $25 charged in the extras section of the kickstarter ($35 and $45 respectively). On top of that, they're in the buy one get one free category... so you get 10 stormwind cav for less than half the price of 5 currently??? The dwarven brock riders seem like a steal if you can get 10 dwarven cav figs for $25 with no tax and free shipping.
Some of the kits are changing from their current form to straight plastic kits - that would be the Immortal Guard and Palace Guard - which would help explain why they'd now be cheaper.
I thought the two Elf cavalry kits were both new sets, but I could be wrong on that.
Once the moulds are set up, it isn't going to cost a lot to produce the models, as the raw materials are cheap. Helps when the company running the KS is the manufacturer, no?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2012/06/21 06:08:22
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter - $200k goal - Celestian Battle Nuns - Free for all $100+ backers!
warboss wrote:This may be a stupid question but the deal just seems too good to be true. Units like the abyssal dwarves immortal guards and elven stormwind cavalry are already available on their website for significantly more than the $25 charged in the extras section of the kickstarter ($35 and $45 respectively). On top of that, they're in the buy one get one free category... so you get 10 stormwind cav for less than half the price of 5 currently??? The dwarven brock riders seem like a steal if you can get 10 dwarven cav figs for $25 with no tax and free shipping.
Yes, you get 10 stormwind cav for that price. They will be plastic. The ones on their website currently are metal.
Same applies to the immortal guard, and elf palace guard... all of these units might be getting a partial or whole re-sculpt as they get converted to the new material.
That's the whole point of this kickstarter, allowing Mantic to produce more affordable miniatures, and a larger range of models.
Everything I've mentioned in the first post is accurate.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/21 06:25:18
2012/06/21 06:17:45
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter - $200k goal - Celestian Battle Nuns - Free for all $100+ backers!
I'm going to send some money in when they do an Army of Men, thats my kind thing.
Chapter Master of Vigilia Mortis www.battle-brothers.net ------
[b]Eternal Crusade Forum
Project: Thinking of creating HH 1st Company Imperial Fist Templars
2012/06/21 06:42:44
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter - $200k goal - Celestian Battle Nuns - Free for all $100+ backers!
Alpharius wrote:I REALLY want to get a lot of the 2 for 1 deals, but I'm stuggling to figure where I'd use the Werewolves as I play Empire and WoC.
Counts as Ogres?
Given the faster nature of WW, counts as Dragon Ogres?
Also, Monstrous Arcanum has (slightly underpowered IMO) rules for 40mm giant humanoid wolves for Chaos armies - Skin Wolves.
Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch." Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!"
2012/06/21 07:15:37
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter - $200k goal - Celestian Battle Nuns - Free for all $100+ backers!
Ok, now in for Veteran $110 option, and taking it to $225 so I can get all the Werewolves I want, plus all the other extras. Had to put in $15 for wound counters at the end to get me there. Might kick in $10 more for another special choice, but I am not quite there yet.
2012/06/21 07:51:13
Subject: Re:Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter - $200k goal - Celestian Battle Nuns - Free for all $100+ backers!
Something that might interest people in here, a piece by Guy Haley, the writer of the background for the new rulebook where he talks about his ideas behind it all.
Source is the Mantic blog, but I'll repost it here too:
Spoiler:
How do you make an entirely new fantasy world for a wargame? That’s a question I had to ask myself when Ronnie at Mantic commissioned me to piece together an overarching background history for The Kings of War rulebook.
I’m no stranger to worldbuilding, I do it all the time in my own fiction, but creating something for a wargames system is a bit different to making a world up for your own stories. Game worlds come about in one of two ways – they’re either planned out in detail by a small group, or they evolve from the ideas of many gamers over the course of years. Both continue to develop organically over time, of course, but only some start that way.
Mantica came about by a hothoused version of the latter; organically grown, but at speed. It involved the input of quite a few people, all whose ideas were somewhat different. This is a good thing, as gaming ideas born from the brains of the many are generally more involving than those that spring from the few.
It was my job to pull it all together.
I’ve been involved with the world of Mantica from near the beginning. In fact, I came up with large parts of it while we were making the Mantic Journal – I came up with a rough outline some time ago that formed the basis of the final version in the book, I drew the map, and I wrote the history for the orcs and dwarfs from scratch, among other things.
With a project like this, you’re always drawing on the ideas of others. For example, much of the undead and elf material had already been written when I came on board. This material provided plenty of detail, while their histories were fortunately vague enough to stand adaption.
Other directives and bits of background material came from the models themselves. They were designed to a brief after all, to fit a certain look and evoke Mantic’s ideas of what an elf or goblin should be. Further concepts came from Alessio Cavatore, the writer of the rules. In most cases he decided on a direction for the armies, and wrote a list to suit. So I knew, in the main, how a race looked, how they fought, and what their traditions of war were. I’ve had conversations with Ronnie and Alessio about the world and how it works, with both of them giving input and ideas to my suggestions and coming up with major elements themselves. The Abyss, for example, a key part of our world, that one was Alessio’s. The rest, particularly the history of the world, was up to me.
Archetypes, not cliché
There’s a big danger when creating fantasy that it doesn’t immediately slide into cliché. Elves, dwarfs, orcs, men and more, all living on one world… Pick up any sub-Tolkien fantasy trilogy and you’ll find variations on the theme. A wargame, especially a fantasy wargame, demands the full menagerie, and there are certain apects of each creature you can’t mess with. A dwarf is never going to love an orc, otherwise you might as well call them both something else. The trouble is, there are some highly original wargames out there that have all manner of different characters and species, but they’re not particularly popular. I completely understand why – when I play a fantasy wargame, I want to play out battles between haughty elves and wicked monsters, not refight the last stand of the cat people of Mew-mew. That’s not to say that cat people aren’t cool, but they’re perhaps not wise business.
The difficulty for a writer in this situation is not to come up with something that’s completely derivative. You want to employ heroic fantasy archetypes, not rearrange tired cliché. There’s not a great deal of room for manoeuvre, but sometimes having strict boundaries drives creativity.
Firstly, I tried to make Mantica obliquely topical. A lot of the fantasy games and books from the 80s that are still popular today play upon apocalyptic themes, many indirectly inspired by the then-prevalent fear of nuclear war. Fantasy needs a threat, a reason for conflict, it’s a defining part of the genre, so I plumped for something similarly world-ending – environmental ruin. Mantica is a wreck, reckless elven magic in the dim past caused half its gods to go insane, and precipitated a series of terrible wars. There was a magically induced ice age, a great inundation that drowned many kingdoms and all manner of other upheavals. Most of the remaining societies in our “present” are fragmented, and struggling to recapture their ancient glory. There’s plenty of new land revealed by retreating ice, and a lot of ancient enmity – perfect for never-ending war.
Unlike some wargames, I wanted Mantica to have a story that could move forward. I didn’t want a “one minute to midnight” feel that renders the actions of our heroes somewhat hopeless, so I put the great wars in the past. In some ways, Mantica is a post-apocalyptic world. Now is a period of retrenchment, but the threat of dark gods returning hangs over all. There are dangerous ruins everywhere, while deadly artefacts and monsters created in the God Wars can be found across the world. The inhabitants of Mantica might pray for a bright future, but it could all go horribly wrong…
I also tried to move away a little from the standards of each racial stereotype: Our dwarfs are powerful and resurgent, mankind’s glory days are in the past, the elves are crippled by internal tensions. The elves in particular are interesting, as it’s been their arrogance and meddling with magic that have unleashed two of the world’s greatest evils. These aren’t huge divergences from the accepted fantasy norm – they fit the archetype – but cumulatively they make the world our own. Hopefully, this keeps us out of the realm of cliché.
A bit of Tolkien, a bit of Beastmaster
For the tone of Mantica, I drew upon two specific influences. I went back to Tolkien for the grand sweep of history: the rising and falling of nations, the reforming of the world, doomed love, the conflict with the divine… We’re talking The Silmarillion here rather than The Lord of the Rings. But the detail of it, at the day-to-day level, comes purely from Sword and Sorcery. Sword and Sorcery pretty much was the be all and end all of fantasy before Tolkien came along, and it’s a sub genre I love – Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, The Eternal Champion… These stories are about the actions of individuals, good and bad, rather than the relentless push of fate. They’re full of horrible creatures, dark magics, and mad wizards, desperate struggles in dark places against terrible foes. Sword and Sorcery is darker than Heroic Fantasy for sure, but there’s a grain of hope in it, and an ownership of one’s actions. Tolkien’s Middle-earth, for example, is a creation in a state of perpetual degeneration. Other heroes find themselves just pawns of destiny. Mantica needn’t be like that.
What Mantica looks like in the future is very much up to you, as the world is now established, so it’s entering its secondary phase, a time when there’s still tons of stuff to be defined, and great sagas to be written. By choosing this mix of deep history and individual action I’ve tried to put the fate of a world in your hands. Have fun deciding it.
Something a little more besides the affordable minis that might make people interested in the game.
The setting of the game world is a post-apocalyptic one that has been ruined by magically-induced environmental disasters, where the reckless elves ended up triggering a new ice age, and turned half of the gods insane.
Progressive setting too. Like Warmachine, it will move forward, rather than being static like Warhammer or 40k.
Dwarfs are the dominant race in the world, the one that seems to be in the centre, with the most land.. only unlike the Empire (and Dwarfs especially) in fantasy, they're not constantly under attack and in decline, they're the ones doing the attacking and conquering of new land, both in areas occupied by men and elves, and new lands revealed by the retreating ice.
Elves are splintered amongst various and constantly-warring factions.
The good humans are the Celestians, ruled over by the "Shining Ones", so it's a highly religious solar cult, one which used to be the dominant power in the world, but is now reduced to a single capital city and the surrounding lands.
Orcs have a short and brutal lifespan, (naturally up to 20 years, but most will suffer a painful death long before hit they hit 10), all of it spent picking out a meagre existence in the wind and rain, amidst the worst scraps of land in the world. They absolutely hate civilised races with warm and comfortable cities to live in, green fields and lifespans that are much longer than theirs (dwarfs and elves live for centuries). They have a martial culture, where the leader of each tribe wants to carve out a name for himself in the songs and sagas after he dies by leading major attacks on the civilised races before he either gets killed in battle or killed in a challenge by a younger upstart.
The Abyss is a massive chasm, ripped open in the world via magical disaster belching smoke and ash across its surroundings. Home to all manner of evil demons, gods and horrors that the elves accidentally unleashed on to the surface.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2012/06/21 08:20:37
2012/06/21 08:22:23
Subject: Re:Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter - $200k goal - Celestian Battle Nuns - Free for all $100+ backers!
Thanks for posting that ScarletSquig, made interesting reading! I like the way it is the Dwarfs that are dominant, and pushing forward, and the humans are in decline. Also, the stuff about the Orcs is quite cool, making you feel a little bit sorry for them (so, definitely a spin on the way most of us think about Orcs!) But, am I the only one who regrets there not being any cat people of Mew-Mew?
@Dragon riders
There was no concept shown to the public, so we will never know how they were intended to look. Mostly Mantic does not deviate that much from concepts.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
2012/06/21 13:16:57
Subject: Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter. $175k goal acheived, free Angels for everyone!
Schmapdi wrote:I'm curious - pretty much this whole Kickstarter we've seen a trend of $10,000 - get a new unit sculpted.
But these last 2 goals it's suddenly $25k per new unit sculpted. Why the jump?
Probably because they're adding in a free mini each time they add a goal with a new unit. Every new "free" mini cuts into the profit margin a little bit. Selling direct to the customer (instead of going through distributors/retailers) and making up for individual sale profit with bulk gives them a nice margin that they can chip away from with "free" minis even if the starting price is reasonable.
Schmapdi wrote:
The reason is because the Immortal Guard and the Stormwind Calvary on the Mantic website are the existing metal (or hybrid) models. Some of the stretch goals have involved turning those units into full plastic units*. Which, for Mantic, results in about a 50% price drop.
*Sprue-less plastic, aka plastic resin, aka the not quite plastic plastic. But still loads cheaper/nicer than metal.
Ah, thanks... I didn't catch that distinction with my first albeit short visit there. From looking at some of the older KS updates, it looks like most of these units won't be availabe until the middle of next year due to the sheer number of sculpts being added. Either way, 28mm cav at $2.50 each is a pretty good deal. Is mantic a bit more reliable with their release estimates and fullfilling orders than Avatars of War?
scarletsquig wrote:
Everything I've mentioned in the first post is accurate.
And it is very informative. I've been stealth skimming the thread for a while so checking the first page wasn't my first thought.
Duncan_Idaho wrote:@Dragon riders
There was no concept shown to the public, so we will never know how they were intended to look. Mostly Mantic does not deviate that much from concepts.
I'm not sure if this was directed at me as I asked about concept art for the Drakon riders of which I'm not a fan. I did find some drawings with a quick google search and they did look cool IMHO... but that didn't seem to carry over to the minis despite them being relatively close to the art.
I'm generally a scifi gamer at heart but I've always had a soft spot for dwarven beserkers and random "useful for D&D" figs. The former would benefit from the beserkers on brocks shown but I'm not sure how the size matches up with the Avatars of War beserker box set. Do any fans of dwarves out there have both the Mantic and AoW not-slayers handy in a side by side pic? I'd assume the upcoming ones would be to scale with their previous releases. As for the later, the newer paladins and nuns would scratch the itch that D&D minis has left unfullfilled for a few years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/21 13:20:53