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So, quick question, my apologies if it has been said. Has the deepstrike stratagem been confirmed? I know it was in the initial rumors, but havent heard it mentioned since then.

 jifel wrote:
So, quick question, my apologies if it has been said. Has the deepstrike stratagem been confirmed? I know it was in the initial rumors, but havent heard it mentioned since then.

Yes, infantry or dreadnought as target. Probably a copy/paste of FTGLtC from custodes (which is damn good)

If it turns out to be 1 per use instead of a 1/3 type, that's a massive deal

 WindstormSCR wrote:

 jifel wrote:
So, quick question, my apologies if it has been said. Has the deepstrike stratagem been confirmed? I know it was in the initial rumors, but havent heard it mentioned since then.

Yes, infantry or dreadnought as target. Probably a copy/paste of FTGLtC from custodes (which is damn good)

If it turns out to be 1 per use instead of a 1/3 type, that's a massive deal

only way I'm getting my close range primaris teams into action

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Codex SM and CSM need complete re-writes at this point. They need chapter traits/strats that are capable of competing with special ammo and DW special rules.

Why don't we just make every army identical and have a dice rolling game

 osmesis wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Codex SM and CSM need complete re-writes at this point. They need chapter traits/strats that are capable of competing with special ammo and DW special rules.

Why don't we just make every army identical and have a dice rolling game

I mean, you can't possibly think both those Codices are balanced at this point.

 osmesis wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Codex SM and CSM need complete re-writes at this point. They need chapter traits/strats that are capable of competing with special ammo and DW special rules.

Why don't we just make every army identical and have a dice rolling game

Because ego stroking game design failures are preferred by an unfortunate portion of the players?

It's easy to spot them, their posts always start with "perfect balance is impossible" or "Why don't we just make every army identical and have a dice rolling game"

Um, just to be clear, there is no "studio painting team". There is the 'eavy metal team, who paints the miniatures for the box and codex art, and there's the army painting team, who paints... well, armies. Those are the ones often featured in WD battle reports.

With the number of factions around (for both 40K and AoS, mind), I guess they haven't gotten around to doing a full army for everyone yet - I'm guessing this is the case for DW, because they haven't been considered a full army of their own up until maybe now in 8th, they've been a small, allied force to complement a "real" army.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Codex SM and CSM need complete re-writes at this point. They need chapter traits/strats that are capable of competing with special ammo and DW special rules.

It's worth noting that the DW Vet is still paying 3 ppm more for access to this stuff. At this point I think the only statline difference is +1 Attack. Not that that makes Tacs good, just that its too early to say these guys are actually worth it yet.

 Oguhmek wrote:
Um, just to be clear, there is no "studio painting team". There is the 'eavy metal team, who paints the miniatures for the box and codex art, and there's the army painting team, who paints... well, armies. Those are the ones often featured in WD battle reports.

With the number of factions around (for both 40K and AoS, mind), I guess they haven't gotten around to doing a full army for everyone yet - I'm guessing this is the case for DW, because they haven't been considered a full army of their own up until maybe now in 8th, they've been a small, allied force to complement a "real" army.

True, but the job of the army painting team is to paint all the minis needed for those big battle shots in every codex. Their job is still to make something that looks good rather than a perfectly balanced army.

 Eldarain wrote:

It's easy to spot them, their posts always start with "perfect balance is impossible" or "Why don't we just make every army identical and have a dice rolling game"

You can't have perfect balance and not be identical - I don't understand what you want.

Storm Shield relic gives the bearer a 6" bubble of 5++ to any DW unit if the bearer doesn't move.

Really nice buff for DW Repulsors! Repulsors knock Landraiders out of the park already with their improved weapons, cheaper cost and fly keyword, but with a first turn 5++ their survivability goes right up. Previously you had to run a deredeo giving hugs to enable 5++, this relic does the job for 0pts/1cp. The way Primaris are featuring in the DW Codex, I can see this combo featuring heavily in DW lists. A lot of people hate Repulsors, but I think they look tasty, and if they can survive first turn they do good work.

 osmesis wrote:
You can't have perfect balance and not be identical - I don't understand what you want.

You don't need perfect balance. You just need things to be close enough that list building matters less than good play in game. Which isn't to say list building should be irrelevant - you need a bit of rock/paper/scissors - but there shouldn't be glaring differences in effectiveness.

Deathwatch intercessors shooting marines with the poison round = 2*2/3*5/6*1/2=5/9 dead marine. 5/9*13=7.222 points. 7.222/19=38% points return. This is reasonably competitive, you can relatively easily buff it to get past 40% which is about the sweet spot.
Regular intercessors shooting marines = 2*2/3*1/2*1/2=1/3 dead marine. 1/3*13=4.333 points. 4.333/18=24% points return. Which was barely okay back in the index days - and grows worse and worse with every new codex.
In other words by paying an extra point the DW intercessor now deals almost 60% more damage. (I realise the maths doesn't entirely work out like this, someone could do the full probability curves for each unit - but I think you would reach a similar comparative conclusion).
Yes the DW is slightly more fragile - paying an extra point and getting no boost to survivability - but I think paying 5% more points to do 60% more damage is a reasonable trade off.

This is what people mean about imbalance. Its not close.

 osmesis wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Codex SM and CSM need complete re-writes at this point. They need chapter traits/strats that are capable of competing with special ammo and DW special rules.

Why don't we just make every army identical and have a dice rolling game

Isn't saying that you want another army to be of comparable power but via a different mechanic the opposite of that?

Dark Angels Intercessors, 10 marines plus two upgrade sprues, £37.50. That’s only £2.50 for the two extra sprues.

Death Watch Intercessors, 10 marines plus ONE upgrade sprue, £43. No saving at all.

Anyone else disappointed?

Tyel wrote:

 osmesis wrote:
You can't have perfect balance and not be identical - I don't understand what you want.

You don't need perfect balance. You just need things to be close enough that list building matters less than good play in game. Which isn't to say list building should be irrelevant - you need a bit of rock/paper/scissors - but there shouldn't be glaring differences in effectiveness.

Deathwatch intercessors shooting marines with the poison round = 2*2/3*5/6*1/2=5/9 dead marine. 5/9*13=7.222 points. 7.222/19=38% points return. This is reasonably competitive, you can relatively easily buff it to get past 40% which is about the sweet spot.
Regular intercessors shooting marines = 2*2/3*1/2*1/2=1/3 dead marine. 1/3*13=4.333 points. 4.333/18=24% points return. Which was barely okay back in the index days - and grows worse and worse with every new codex.
In other words by paying an extra point the DW intercessor now deals almost 60% more damage. (I realise the maths doesn't entirely work out like this, someone could do the full probability curves for each unit - but I think you would reach a similar comparative conclusion).
Yes the DW is slightly more fragile - paying an extra point and getting no boost to survivability - but I think paying 5% more points to do 60% more damage is a reasonable trade off.

This is what people mean about imbalance. Its not close.

I see what you're saying. However, just because Deathwatch now have more points efficient Intercessors doesn't mean regular Space Marine ones have to be the same - which is what I'm trying to say. Deathwatch SHOULD be better than Space Marines at certain things especially when it comes to their specialised Kill Teams. This is the trade off for having access to less than half the units available in the Space Marines codex - Deathwatch detachments can't take Special HQs, Scouts, Tac Marines, Ironclads, Centurions, Predators, Vindicators, Stormravens etc. the list goes on.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Anyone else disappointed?

Anyone surprised?

The Deathwatch Primaris Apothecary is AUD$20 more than the regular Primaris Apothecary. That's a lot of money for a few shoulder pads.

 osmesis wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 osmesis wrote:
You can't have perfect balance and not be identical - I don't understand what you want.

You don't need perfect balance. You just need things to be close enough that list building matters less than good play in game. Which isn't to say list building should be irrelevant - you need a bit of rock/paper/scissors - but there shouldn't be glaring differences in effectiveness.

Deathwatch intercessors shooting marines with the poison round = 2*2/3*5/6*1/2=5/9 dead marine. 5/9*13=7.222 points. 7.222/19=38% points return. This is reasonably competitive, you can relatively easily buff it to get past 40% which is about the sweet spot.
Regular intercessors shooting marines = 2*2/3*1/2*1/2=1/3 dead marine. 1/3*13=4.333 points. 4.333/18=24% points return. Which was barely okay back in the index days - and grows worse and worse with every new codex.
In other words by paying an extra point the DW intercessor now deals almost 60% more damage. (I realise the maths doesn't entirely work out like this, someone could do the full probability curves for each unit - but I think you would reach a similar comparative conclusion).
Yes the DW is slightly more fragile - paying an extra point and getting no boost to survivability - but I think paying 5% more points to do 60% more damage is a reasonable trade off.

This is what people mean about imbalance. Its not close.

I see what you're saying. However, just because Deathwatch now have more points efficient Intercessors doesn't mean regular Space Marine ones have to be the same - which is what I'm trying to say. Deathwatch SHOULD be better than Space Marines at certain things especially when it comes to their specialised Kill Teams. This is the trade off for having access to less than half the units available in the Space Marines codex - Deathwatch detachments can't take Special HQs, Scouts, Tac Marines, Ironclads, Centurions, Predators, Vindicators, Stormravens etc. the list goes on.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you on that point, but the distance between the two is too great. It's not just that DW intercessors are a bit more pts efficient. It's that they actually bring enough firepower to get something done. SM infantry is currently cursed with Str4 and poor ap and simply can't kill anything. Special ammo makes a huge difference. (We haven't seen how they play out, so I don't know how they'll compare to other armies. But they are obviously a LOT more viable than standard marine units. Especially the Primaris.) Standard SM meqs and primaris units could see some points changes and they still wouldn't be worth using because the problem isn't really their cost, it's their abilities.

And it's not much of a trade off because none of the units you listed are particularly worth using either. And especially with the current detachment and soup system. In the past when allies weren't a thing, it may have been worth the trade off of a weaker unit in one area in return for a larger amount of units. But with the current system, we're just going to see battalions of current marine infantry swapped for DW, as other units are likely to be off in their own detachment anyway. Well, it's not fair to say they will be swapped because nobody is really using marine infantry anyway because it's already been swapped for guard or something :(

I'm not going to be upset if DW is powerful. I think we're all getting a bit bored with the current horde unit meta. I want MeQs and primaris to be worth using. What's annoying me is that the way they've done DW is an admission that everyone else sucks. If 20pt intercessors with special ammo, special rules from mixing in other models, and re-rolls of 1 to wound are balanced vs other armies, then there's no way that 18pt intercessors without all that are. Hence my previous comment that chapter traits need to get stronger. If chapter traits and strats were good, then there would be more of a reason to take all those other marine units that are currently being ignored in favor of soup or razor back spam. It'd be great if there was an incentive to run pure chapter armies too. Perhaps an extra bonus for taking all your detachments from the same chapter even. Otherwise we're just gonna keep seeing the same few soup lists.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

And it's not much of a trade off because none of the units you listed are particularly worth using either.

Ok then what are the meta units in the Space Marines codex?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Anyone else disappointed?

Anyone surprised?

The Deathwatch Primaris Apothecary is AUD$20 more than the regular Primaris Apothecary. That's a lot of money for a few shoulder pads.

Going from 30€ to 40€ certainly seems like it's GW standard one click approach of just adding up individual items for your convenience. I thought 30€ was insane for a single plastic character. Seeing that same model (now with a fancy, different shoulder pad!) for 10€ more... who honestly thinks that's a price worth paying?

Conveniently the normal Primaris Apothecary vanished from the Space Marine listing on the GW store. You can still find it via search and it may be in the divergent chapter sections (didn't check), but one cannot help but wonder if a marketing genius isn't at work again...

Worst of all, all that after they threw in the Deathwacth sprue for free upon initial release. Actually made me go out and buy the Terminator Captain because the price didn't sting so bad with an extra sprue thrown in. Somehow I don't foresee the same happening this time around.

It’s slightly weird that they picked the apothecary and no other character for this treatment. It’s just the two products together.

As such it’s not exactly a bad deal - it’s not really a deal at all. If you’re playing deathwatch you’ll want the shoulder pads. If you want an apothecary too then go ahead and get this guy.

I’m not sure if an apothecary is a good pick for deathwatch. If your valuable guys like hellblasters are in mixed squads then actually there’s less chance he’ll be healing them. He’d just be standing an intercessor back up. It might be more worth it for non-primaris units - say if you had a terminator tanking for some veterans and he failed his SS save.

Also, aren’t normal deathwatch veterans now completely worthless? It sounds like they are actually more expensive than intercessors, which are just obviously better. They do get some great weapon options, but they are expensive glass cannons compared to the durability of intercessors.

Does anyone knows if the deathwatch captain in gravis armor primaris is on the codex, i did search for it and didnt found anything about it, thanks in advance

I'm just gald that I picked up a DW terminator box when I saw one. Those extra DW sprues will help fill out all my primaris.

thanedrake wrote:
Does anyone knows if the deathwatch captain in gravis armor primaris is on the codex, i did search for it and didnt found anything about it, thanks in advance

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/TableOfContents-DW.jpg

Thanks!!

Anyone else really hoping that "Unflinching" is going to be added to non-Deathwatch Terminators?

Sure. Being able to automatically pass morale test instead of just being able to reroll it is super useful for Ld 9 guys who are usually fielded in squads of five...

But these guys can have three heavy weapons. That's kinda big deal.

Hmm... as a missile launcher terminator still has a storm bolter, can he then take assault terminator options?

changemod wrote:
Hmm... as a missile launcher terminator still has a storm bolter, can he then take assault terminator options?

I think that you're required to pay for the Storm Bolter still for the Cyclone. Wasn't that an issue with Deathwing dudes?

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:
Um, just to be clear, there is no "studio painting team". There is the 'eavy metal team, who paints the miniatures for the box and codex art, and there's the army painting team, who paints... well, armies. Those are the ones often featured in WD battle reports.

With the number of factions around (for both 40K and AoS, mind), I guess they haven't gotten around to doing a full army for everyone yet - I'm guessing this is the case for DW, because they haven't been considered a full army of their own up until maybe now in 8th, they've been a small, allied force to complement a "real" army.

True, but the job of the army painting team is to paint all the minis needed for those big battle shots in every codex. Their job is still to make something that looks good rather than a perfectly balanced army.

And even those don't neccessarily paint all that many models...Photoshop anybody? It's fun to spot same models in big group shots. Back in 8th ed FB you could see like 2 ranks of grunts being photoshopped behind others over and over and if photo had 4 units of dwarf warriors you could be sure it was one unit photoshopped 4 times.

Why the hell are you still going on about the fething studio painting team? It's entirely irrelevant to the release.