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What do you think the Imperium would look like if Horus had won? Would there even be an Imperium or would Chaos have taken complete control, in effect it being one huge Eye of Terror?

If not how would Horus deal with the current Xenos threats, Nids, Crons etc.

Lets assume the following for this scenario:
All loyalist legions were destroyed during the Heresy.
Horus wiped out groups like the SoBs, Custodians, Assassins etc - basically anyone loyal to the Emperor who posed a threat.
Mars still exists but is the ruled by the Dark Mechanicum.

I suggest you read the Alpha Legion novel from the HH series. It is pretty descriptive on what the cabal envisioned if Horus had won and why Alpah Legion did what it did. (Or maybe it was all a machination of Xenos...who knows?)

In short:

Horus wins, Chaos spills in the galaxy, Horus gets all misty-eyed and regretfull for killing dady and turns against the Chaos Gods, Humanity wipes itself out. Chaos ceases to exist as it is described in the, current, canon (dont forget Slaneesh was born due to the Eldar, but all the Chaos Gods have "invested" (?) heavily upon humanity). Therefore win for the Emperor's plan (albeit a Pyrric victory but still).
And Alpharius knew that all along...

Name of that Alpha Legion book?

Sounds a bit wishy washy to me, Horus regreetting what hes done.
Lets assume he stays bad ass and fights some Nids instead.

If Chaos had to fight nids they would just need to send wave after wave of Daemons against them. They cant eat deamons, so the Nid's would be fighting an unwinable fight and gaining no bio-mass in the process.

Love the idea of Horus regretting his ultimate choice at the end of all things...

Ratius wrote:Name of that Alpha Legion book?

Sounds a bit wishy washy to me, Horus regreetting what hes done.
Lets assume he stays bad ass and fights some Nids instead.

Its called Legion.

Ratius wrote:Name of that Alpha Legion book?

Sounds a bit wishy washy to me, Horus regreetting what hes done.
Lets assume he stays bad ass and fights some Nids instead.

It's 'Legion' by Dan Abnett. Good read.

And, btw, don't forget that 'Nids came to the Milky Way only recently in the 40k timeline, drawn by the psychic energies of the Astronomican. Assuming the Heresy had succeeded, by the time the first Hive Fleets arrived the galaxy would have become a giant Eye of Terror, thanks to the efforts of Warmaster Horus, esq.

I can imagine Horus regretting what he'd done. After all, his alliance with Chaos was one of mere convenience, and his act of rebellion just but a case of completely missing the point: Horus just wanted to rule over the material universe, replacing the Emperor's order by his own... not fully realizing that:

a) He was ill-fitted for ruling such a vast empire without the E's supernatural powers.

b) The Daemons had lied to him. The Immaterium wouldn't just seal itself from our reality, but instead it would pour into it using human minds as gateways. This wasn't probably in Horus' agenda... but was probably known by disreputable fellas like Lorgar or Magnus.

Bobakos wrote:I suggest you read the Alpha Legion novel from the HH series. It is pretty descriptive on what the cabal envisioned if Horus had won and why Alpah Legion did what it did. (Or maybe it was all a machination of Xenos...who knows?)

In short:

Horus wins, Chaos spills in the galaxy, Horus gets all misty-eyed and regretfull for killing dady and turns against the Chaos Gods, Humanity wipes itself out. Chaos ceases to exist as it is described in the, current, canon (dont forget Slaneesh was born due to the Eldar, but all the Chaos Gods have "invested" (?) heavily upon humanity). Therefore win for the Emperor's plan (albeit a Pyrric victory but still).
And Alpharius knew that all along...

Yeah, I don't buy this entirely. One thing the Chaos Gods can do well is convince you that you are doing the right thing.

Hows this sound for a 'what could be'

Horus is totally corrupted by the Chaos Gods, enslaving humanity, his original notion of betterment long forgotten.

The Pylons on Cadia are destroyed and the Eye of Terror grows encompassing the whole of the Galaxy, breaking the boundaries between the material realm and that of the Immaterium. Daemons are able to manifest much easier and dance on the ashes of the dead Imperium on a million worlds.

As more and more Daemons come into existence, on the ever increasing number of Daemon worlds, wars breakout with the Traitor Legions as territories claimed by them come under threat.

The Primarchs have their final council with Horus. Most Primarchs raise theirs concerns and attack Horus for his lack of action. Horus, with Lorgar who has ever been closest to the Gods, reveal that this has always been their Dark Master intention, to bring Chaos to the masses and to accept this or be destroyed.

Those Primarchs who do not wish to follow Chaos are enraged and break from Horus. Konrad Curze, Perturabo and Alpharius swear to defy Horus and the Dark Gods and an alliance between the three Legions is formed. Their first act of defiance is to Virus bomb the home world of the Sons of Horus, Cthonia.

The Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion destroy their own homeworlds to prevent reprisal and form a huge fleet. They will fight to the last.

Horus dispatches those Primarchs loyal to him to destroy the renegades. The Chaos Wars begin.

Omegon is contacted by Horus. Horus offers the survival of any Legionnaires that side with him should he bring them to his side. Omegon, always wanting to be on the winning side, agrees and confronts Alpharius. Omegon is slain along with those who would join him but the damage done in the battle to the Allied fleet is immense.

The Slave World of Khorne, Tanith, is pillaged by the forces of the Emperors Children. The entire human population is taken aboard the Slaanesh Pain barges commanded by Fabius Bile.
Angron leads a fleet to Chemos, homeworld of the Emperors Children. The whole Legion is unleashed upon the population wiping it out entirely, the heads of each spiked in place where they died.

The first battle between rival Gods is fought. The Emperors Children meeting the Worlds Eaters on the Daemon World of Tanith. Each Legion suffers heavy casualties but the Worlds Eaters win the day and force the Emperors Children to withdraw. This is the first in a major period of Holy Wars between Rival Gods and effectively what allows the renegades to strike at Horus.

Lorgar, as a son of the Pantheon, is sent by Horus to restore order between his brothers.

The Renegade fleet, realising that Horus and Terra are now at their weakest and most exposed, head towards Terra.

Fulgrim and his Legion meet the World Eaters in combat for the last time. With the assistance of Fabius and the World Eaters slaves Fulgrim has been able to replenish the losses they suffered at Tanith and greatly increase his Legions numbers. The battle on the dead world of Mordia see's the World Eaters defeated. Angron however would slay Fulgrim in hand to hand combat. Kharn, now known as the Saviour amongst those few World Eaters that survived, along with a few brother Marines fight a bloody path and capture Fulgrims Assault ship, Firebird and escape off world.

The Renegade fleet reaches Terra and the Second Siege, this time led by Perturabo, begins. The Praetorian Guard, the Sons of Horus, and the Deaths Head Titan Legion, stationed there since the first war, are the only defenders present but they are corrupted by Chaos beyond recognition. Each Marine possessed and singing glory to their dark lord and each Titan more beast than Machine.

After many days of fighting the Renegade forces finally break the walls after the Dies Irae is bought down, collapsing a large portion of the defences. Their forces nealry defeated Alpharius and Konrad, along with as many Marines as can be spared by Perturabo, lead the charge into the depths of the Palace. After a bitter and bloody struggle the surviving Astartes and two Primarchs reach Horus in his throne room, now more Daemon than man, with him is Abaddon and the Justaerin, now hulking and Monstrous. Alpharius brings down Abaddon in single combat but is obliterated under the vengeful fire of the remaining Justaerians.

Konrad and Horus join battle. Horus is corrupted beyond recognition and moves as if his body is not his own. The Nighthaunter deals Horus some grievous wounds but is in turn decapitated. With the death of the two Primarchs the renegade assault falters and Perturabo calls for an immediate retreat of his remaining forces. Heading as far away from Terra as possible.

Lorgar having gained the favour of his remaining brothers after a number of battles heads to Terra and launches an attack of his own. Horus, still weak and wounded, is no match for the Child of Chaos and Lorgar takes his rightful place on the throne. Chaos now reigns supreme and behind Lorgar the Dark Gods laugh with glee.

Probably tl;dr but I had fun writing that

Holy moly, where did you pull that out of?!
Great read.

Im very interested though on how Horus/Chaos would fight the current Galactic threats, billions of Orks, Nids, Crons coming back etc etc.

Ratius wrote:Holy moly, where did you pull that out of?!
Great read.

Im very interested though on how Horus/Chaos would fight the current Galactic threats, billions of Orks, Nids, Crons coming back etc etc.

I made it up as I went along

I'm not sure, I didn't really think about the other races whilst I was writing that

That was a good Alt history Pilau.
I agree that if Horus had won some cracks between the Primarchs would have really opened up.

I think by 10,000 years after the Horus Heresy then Chaos/Humanity would have either ascended and be rulers of the galaxy, or would have long since wiped themselves out. A Chaos led Imperium would be far less stable than the regular version.

I imagine humanity would still be as devided as it is in the current time line if not more so due to the in fighting between the worshippers of different gods.

Orks, can't see them ever being got rid of, too viral. Plus they don't really get affected by chaos.

Kiss the Tau good bye.

Crons, not sure not upto date with my cron fluff but wouldn't more of them wake up because of all the chaos. So they'd probably be a bigger problem.

Nids would be an interesting one, not sure what the shadow of the hive mind would do to chaos.

Indeed it was a good read Pilau!!!

And I agree with ChaosGalvatron...

PS yes the book is Legion by Dan Abnett as the guys previously mentioned I urge you to read it if you get the chance, by far one of my favs...

ChaosGalvatron wrote:That was a good Alt history Pilau.

Bobakos wrote:Indeed it was a good read Pilau!!!

Why thank you!

How about for the Orks:

As the Eye of Terror increases in size, encompassing more and more of the material realm, Ork Empires begin to fall under the sway of Chaos. Usually hardy and resilient to the nature of the warp more and more Orks succumb to chaos influence. Wars amongst the Empires erupt as Clans fight the rising 'un orky' mutated creatures. Initial wars go well for the untainted Orks but an increase in daemonic activity and the emergence of possessed orks begins to turn the tide of battle against them.

A great 'Orkidus' occurs on those worlds where Chaos takes hold and defeat is inevitable. Orks flee to worlds outside the reaches of Chaos swelling the numbers of Orks in a single location. Unknown to the orks it is this concentration of Orks that will delay the approach of the Eye due to the power of the Waaagh!.

And Necrons:

Sensing an ever increasing threat from the creeping warp the Necron Tombworlds begin to awaken. Recognising the danger that the Warp posses for them the Overlords of the Tombworlds forge a great alliance and look to rebuild the pylons on Cadia, and now other worlds, and look to close the Eye once and for all.

All life is destroyed on Planets near to an emergent Tomb World and Pylons are erected on each, providing them with an area of stability.

RE: Pilau's interesting alt. history

Do any loyal forces remain that were out of Sol. at the time?

Ultramarines/Dark Angels spring to mind.

Are the Ultramarines completely annihilated as they translate in system? What of Ultramar iteself? Does the death of the Emperor allow Luther to beat the Lion?

I could imagine with no Ultramarines, Ultramar is treated to systematic population purges conducted by the Word Bearers.

Medium of Death wrote:RE: Pilau's interesting alt. history

Do any loyal forces remain that were out of Sol. at the time?

Ultramarines/Dark Angels spring to mind.

Are the Ultramarines completely annihilated as they translate in system? What of Ultramar iteself? Does the death of the Emperor allow Luther to beat the Lion?

I could imagine with no Ultramarines, Ultramar is treated to systematic population purges conducted by the Word Bearers.

Ratius OP said that all Loyalist factions were destroyed so it's pretty much Chaos Chaos Chaos

But that's a good one about Luther, I forgot about him

Hmmm Ork angle is interesting. Can Orks be mutated by Choas at all? Is it cannon or fanfluff? I cant recall.

We also have to remember 10000 years will have passed, many of the warriors who fought then would be dead (unless they stayed on their Daemon worlds). Would the Traitor legions replenish their forces as loyalist legions do?

Actually I forgot, were the Grey Knights created pre or post Heresy?

Ratius wrote:Hmmm Ork angle is interesting. Can Orks be mutated by Choas at all? Is it cannon or fanfluff? I cant recall.

We also have to remember 10000 years will have passed, many of the warriors who fought then would be dead (unless they stayed on their Daemon worlds). Would the Traitor legions replenish their forces as loyalist legions do?

Actually I forgot, were the Grey Knights created pre or post Heresy?

I haven't gone that far into the future, I've gone from pretty close after the end of the Horus Heresy. The Necrons I guess could wake earlier and the increase in exposure to the warp would increase the rate of corruption I guess. Although you do get Ork Empires in places like the Maelstrom. Chaos Orks aren't that common in current 40k but then Chaos influence isn't as strong as it is in the Alternative timeline

Post Heresy I do believe

Ratius wrote:Actually I forgot, were the Grey Knights created pre or post Heresy?

In the current codex, the answer is 'yes'. They were founded with the initial bunch of trainees just prior to Horus invading the solar system, then Titan was lobbed into the warp for some large amount of time, it emerged post-Heresy and enough time had passed that there was a full sized chapter on the moon at that point.

The point of the Cabal's plan wasn't that Horus would get all misty eyed, it was that a small part of himself would hate himself for what he had done, and would then lash out at everyone, eventually leading to the extinction of humanity as his rage played out. Kind of like how Kharn isn't the healthiest guy to hang around with, but on a galactic scale and with no Imperium to be the focus for the distruction.

Horus is eventually beaten by Tau and the greater good consumes all...

LOL!

Galaxy would be one HUEG Eye of Terror.

Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Kroot, Vespid, Demiurg, Necrons, Tyranids... all extinct.

There is only Chaos and the will of the Dark Gods. All Traitor Primarch now soulless Grater Daemons that fight among themselves for pleasure of their dark masters.

Thank the Emperor and his Imperium it did not happened this way...

Brother Coa wrote:Galaxy would be one HUEG Eye of Terror.

Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Kroot, Vespid, Demiurg, Necrons, Tyranids... all extinct.

There is only Chaos and the will of the Dark Gods. All Traitor Primarch now soulless Grater Daemons that fight among themselves for pleasure of their dark masters.

Thank the Emperor and his Imperium it did not happened this way...

Not sure about extinct, living in a bit of a hard place indeed.

No Astronomicon might mean that the Tyranids never travel towards Terra. The Dark Eldar would still be safe in the Commoragh. The Eldar would do as they have always done. Tau might grow up to be a race of Chaos Worshipers.

Pilau, that was an awesome read. Whatever the reason, be the Warmaster's feelings for his "father", be it his inability to manage the post-Emperor situation, Horus' reign is bound to be short-lived. In my view of things, like in yours, Chaos itself ultimately takes over and the Galaxy sinks in the immaterium.

Why would the Chaos Gods forge a plan that would lead them to their own demise? Unless the stalemate which ended the Horus Heresy was planned in advance, the Cabal's assumption that humanity would wipe out themselves is absurd. Pretty arrogant for them to attempt to outsmart the Gods in the warp.

However, I have a different take on what would happen, should the Cabal's forecasts had been right. Here it goes:

Horus' assault on Terra succeeds. The Emperor, along with Dorn, Russ, Khan, and Sanguinius are killed. The Dark Angel's heretic half triumphs over the Lion and his loyals. The Ultramarines make a final stand, only to be vanquished by the might of the combined Chaos Legions and a vast array of daemons and traitors. Horus crowns himself Emperor and publicly bows allegiance to the Ruinous Powers. The immaterium begins to coalesce into the material universe, as millions of worlds are awed by sightings of the impossible and a hundred others are struck by unstoppable daemonic incursions. Chaos reigns supreme.

But the light of the Astronomican is gone, and with it the ability to sustain long voyages in the warp. Terra is soon cut off from its furthest domains, which soon fall prey to civil war, famine and plague, while others are enslaved or destroyed by xenos or consumed in ephemeral daemonic raids. Back in Terra, millions of psykers are sacrificed in an effort to keep the interstellar beacon running, their deaths a vain gesture without the communion of souls to act as a catalyst. Former allies turn on Horus, denouncing his incompetence. His struggle to keep his grasp on power becomes desperate.

Feeling betrayed, realising the role his "father" had played in the course of events, Horus "repents" and turns against the Ruinous Powers, banning their cult from the remains of his empire. Lorgar, Mortarion, Magnus, Angron and Fulgrim turn on him in reprisal. Battles are fought all over the ever-diminishing Empire of Man, planets are ravaged, millions die in the turmoil. Earth is besieged again, as the traitors clash on a final battle. Unable to stand against the armies of Chaos, Horus is killed.

A new order is imposed, but the domains of this new Empire of Chaos are substantially smaller than the ones Horus had ruled over. The Ruinous Powers, who once basked in delight on the pain and desperation brought by the seemingly endless war, finally realize that the mortal minds that gave them a grasp on the material realm have been decimated. Blaming each other, the Pantheon falls to infighting as the warp storms that rose in the upheaval of the Heresy wane and come to an end. As the Gods wage war on each other, the warp becomes harder to traverse even for the most skilled navigators. The legions that held the Gods' blessing fight each other on the material realm for a brief time, until each is cut from the others. Without their patrons' attention, the arch-heretics soon fall: The Death Guard is finally consumed by the warp-fed illness that made them seemingly undying. The World Eaters and the Emperor's Children destroy themselves in an orgy of violence, madness and bloodshed. The Thousand Sons fall to mutation, becoming a host of impossible, quasi-real monstrosities deprived of rational thought. Lorgar's Word Bearers are engulfed by sectarian violence. The few Astartes Legions who weren't purged in the first time are stranded, cut off from the rest of the galaxy, without the technical means to keep their ranks filled, their armories supplied. Some resort to piracy, others fall to barbarism, others try to forge short-lived empires on primitive worlds who soon plunge into anarchy or are purged by xenos. Earth itself dies.

In a couple millenia, peace is restored to the warp, the Chaos Gods a tiny fraction of what they once were. The Imperium of Mankind's death throes have left semi-permanent scars on the continuum of reality, none as vast or lasting as the Eye of Terror, still home to daemons and other entities of Chaos.

Mankind is decimated and disunited, the remains of their once vast empire are confined to a limited area of space no bigger than a few thousand light years in size and ruled by more than a hundred different polities, often warrying amongst each other, often put under xenos' "tutelage" to prevent outbursts of Chaotic activity. Thrown to a miniature version of their Age of Strife and with their numbers severely reduced, mutation rates amongst humans drop to pre-imperial levels. The Galaxy is again safe, ready for xenos to repopulate.

Brother Coa wrote:Galaxy would be one HUEG Eye of Terror.

How would that happen? The EoT was brought about by the birth of one of the dark gods. I don't even want to think what sort of event would be required to bring about a galaxy sized materium/immaterium breach.

Legion says:

If Horus wins he will bring about the apocalypse. The galaxy will be saved from chaos in a few hundred years.

If the Emperor wins the galaxy will fall into decline. All the races will war amongst each other and bring about the end of the galaxy in 10,000 yeas (40k).

Humans were ment to die saving the galaxy from chaos.

Reading that book is Heresy.

ANd that is prophecy said by an Eldar who is member of the Cabal.

Are you really going to trust a Xeno, Eldar to that? Taldeer and Idranel also saw victory in their prophesies and what happened to them in the end?

Reading that book is Heresy.

I love you Brother Coa

Just trying my best at serving the Emprah

Eiríkr wrote:Love the idea of Horus regretting his ultimate choice at the end of all things...

In defeat, he did. Chaos was in complete control of Horus. Horus did not want to do what he had done. In the last second of his life, before the Emperor destroyed him utterly, he came "back".

Also the fallen would never have beaten their bretheren they were far outnumbered