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Hey there. I have noticed a strange trend of late. Way back when FW was NOT part of GW, I understood you really couldn't use FW models in your army when at a GW store. Now that FW IS part of GW, I still have folks at my GW bunker whinning FOUL! "You can't use FW models!" Now I use a land raider, rhino, and dreadnought from FW. Nothing grand and no special rules. For guard I use the FW vanq LR as it is in the reg Guard Codex. I use the regular codex for these models. I explain this to new gamers I don't usually game against. The models are just more detailed and more to my liking. I can understand if someone tried to use a Titan for example, that would need permission & a specific game & points etc...But refusing to play someone because they are using FW models that are near identical in looks to GW plastic kits? What is your thoughts?

It's the same case as using proxies, it all depends on who you are playing against.

IMO I don't care, in fact I think it'd be cool, it adds character to the table top

krazynadechukr wrote:Hey there. I have noticed a strange trend of late. Way back when FW was NOT part of GW, I understood you really couldn't use FW models in your army when at a GW store. Now that FW IS part of GW, I still have folks at my GW bunker whinning FOUL! "You can't use FW models!" Now I use a land raider, rhino, and dreadnought from FW. Nothing grand and no special rules. For guard I use the FW vanq LR as it is in the reg Guard Codex. I use the regular codex for these models. I explain this to new gamers I don't usually game against. The models are just more detailed and more to my liking. I can understand if someone tried to use a Titan for example, that would need permission & a specific game & points etc...But refusing to play someone because they are using FW models that are near identical in looks to GW plastic kits? What is your thoughts?

It comes down to where/who you're playing. There's no rules issue here.

Well - there is (the rulebook specifies a Citadel miniature which I'm pretty sure FW isn't) but if you're using them as essentially Counts-as (cause..well... they are) there's no real problem.

FW = Citadel Miniature, and the later books even state that they are considered to be as official as codexes

I;m all for the challenge, as long as you have the proper models, and arent just wanting them for the rules....

It stems from people reading rules the way they want to. This is easily remedied when it's normal codices because they are readily available for a reasonable (?) price. I'm not buying $100 rulebooks just to keep up to date on every special unit the guys at FW can concoct. Which are known to range from overpriced crap to way out of balance.

FW models? "Go for it!"
FW rules? "Lemme see that book a sec..."

If your just using the models because they look cooler then it's fine. FW stuff is not always well balanced for normal 40k games so I would generally be wary of playing someone using the FW rules.

I love FW models, but some of the rules are way out of whack.

Every GT says using FW models as a proxy for a codex unit is ok so I don't what the problem is in your store.

Playing against FW rules isnt exactly what I'd like to do, but I wont make a big fuss about it since I just game for fun.

Now people complaining about using FW models that are actually in the codex is ridiculous... they need a back hand the the face.

I cant see why anyone would have a problem with that. Would bloody annoy me after spending a lot of money on lovely FW models!

FW models are ok to use!!!!!! The rule still applies as what you see is what you get, and that is has to be as close to the size as the standard GW model as possible. My personal experience is that i have a FW Space Wolves Venerable dreadnought that you did come customizing too. since the FW special chapters Dreadnoughts at 1/4 inches smaller the the GW Dreadnoughts i put rocks on the base to bring the model up to the same height as the GW models.. as well as i use the model as the special character Bjorn the Fell-Handed just cause the model looks sooooooooo COOL!!!!!!!

It is nice to see the majority of you are on the same wave as me...

I think the guy I ran into was just an arse....

krazynadechukr wrote:Hey there. I have noticed a strange trend of late. Way back when FW was NOT part of GW, I understood you really couldn't use FW models in your army when at a GW store. Now that FW IS part of GW, I still have folks at my GW bunker whinning FOUL! "You can't use FW models!" Now I use a land raider, rhino, and dreadnought from FW. Nothing grand and no special rules. For guard I use the FW vanq LR as it is in the reg Guard Codex. I use the regular codex for these models. I explain this to new gamers I don't usually game against. The models are just more detailed and more to my liking. I can understand if someone tried to use a Titan for example, that would need permission & a specific game & points etc...But refusing to play someone because they are using FW models that are near identical in looks to GW plastic kits? What is your thoughts?

1. Please, differentiate between using Forgeworld models and Imperial Armour.

2. The fact that FW is part of GW is completely and utterly irrelevant to any discussion about anything. I am sure I don't need to explain why.


Having gotten that out of the way, it sounds like some very odd people that refuse to let you use a Forgeworld model (of appropriate dimensions) to represent a unit from Codex Imperial Guard.

krazynadechukr wrote:Now I use a land raider, rhino, and dreadnought from FW. Nothing grand and no special rules. For guard I use the FW vanq LR as it is in the reg Guard Codex. I use the regular codex for these models.

As long as you explain that yes, these are the units from these pages of the codex I'd have no problem with it. They do look the same anyways, same footprint and all. Just good to see nice-looking models.

Some people just hear Forge World and think of the rumours of incredibly overpowered Imperial Armour units, going straight to "no thanks".

The should be no discussion about FW models. Anyone who refuses to play against a regular army with uncommon models is not being a good sportsman. It's pretty much on the same line as refusing someone who is playing with a self-built Biker Warboss, Tervigon or even an army with an odd paint-scheme.

FW rules (Imperial Armour) is a whole different story. How would you react if someone suddenly called "Rock 'em boyz!" in the middle of the game, dropping three 10" destroyer pie plates on your death korps of krieg? Suddenly equips a band of gretchin with melta-bombs? He is just using rules made by FW, which is the same as GW by a common pro-FW argument, without your consent.
Just because your rules have nice looking models attached, doesn't allow you to use them without your opponents consent. And consent means that he is free to not play you simply because he doesn't want to worry about completely unexpected things, like orks suddenly having long-range artillery, eldar being able to field warwalkers in addition to fire prisms or the imperial guard suddenly bringing nothing but fast skimmers. Imperial Armor is an expansion to Warhammer 40k. You have no inherited right to use that expansion, just like your opponent doesn't have an inherited right to use apocalypse, city of death or planet strike rules.

I personally allow anyone to bring his forgeworld rules to the game as long as it says something along the lines of "Can be used as X in Codex:Y". If you bring anything else, I want a warning before I build my list, or we are not having a game, because I want to bring cool stuff like units of 15-30 koptaz, supa-kannons or a mekboy junka myself, if you are not giving a warning, you are both trying to spring a trap on me, and denying me the fun of playing the same game.

krazynadechukr wrote:Hey there. I have noticed a strange trend of late. Way back when FW was NOT part of GW, I understood you really couldn't use FW models in your army when at a GW store. Now that FW IS part of GW, I still have folks at my GW bunker whinning FOUL! "You can't use FW models!" Now I use a land raider, rhino, and dreadnought from FW. Nothing grand and no special rules. For guard I use the FW vanq LR as it is in the reg Guard Codex. I use the regular codex for these models. I explain this to new gamers I don't usually game against. The models are just more detailed and more to my liking. I can understand if someone tried to use a Titan for example, that would need permission & a specific game & points etc...But refusing to play someone because they are using FW models that are near identical in looks to GW plastic kits? What is your thoughts?

As someone who has a very large DKOK army and owns several Dreadnaugths + LRBTs I field a very large procent of my army from FW. Granted for my CSM I use the GW Bezerkers, plauge Marines and what not, but all my Mechanized units are from FW, due to their better quality and general feel. I use the Codex rules for said units so I dont see the problem really

If it's roughly wysiwyg and you're proxying it for a unit that is within their normal codex I'd never have any problem whatsoever. If they want to use the actual forge world rules, I have two (competely reasonable IMO) conditions:

Do you have the rules with you?
Can I read them before we set up?

If the answer to both questions is yes (and its not something blatently designed for apoc) then its game on.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

FW models? "Go for it!"
FW rules? "Lemme see that book a sec..."

Im gonna have to say that i give this the holy +1 of support.
The FW model is fine, the rules can sometimes be janky. Just use the rules from a codex and you are all good.

See I've enjoyed giving people the option, either usual eldar codex army or eldar with new forgeworld units, books is there people can read the rules, all fine.

The bit I find amusing though is that everyone complains of the units in 40k for SM, eldar and orks - I think if you then see that at tournaments how few people take these armies - old and uncompetitive I wonder why people with new armies like GK/DE etc are so worried?

I love seeing well done FW models on the tabletop, some models are just so stunning.

The recent books they have put out, seem to have very balanced rules for the new units as well.

I think part of the Problem is that some people bring Apoc units into regular games. I've seen that mentioned a few times here, and it's gives a very sour taste in a players mouth. Without the wide availability of the FW books, some players get taken advantage of.

So in short, I don't mind playing FW units and Models. If you are playing units with IA rules, I would prefer that you bring the book and let me flip through it before the game starts. I'd afford anyone the same courtesy.

I thought that Forgeworld has always been part of Games Workshop, it's a subsidiary. Long before that was Armourcast which had a licence, but they are a different company.

Anyway, if something is made or licenced by GW then it's fair use for the tabletop IMO, though Apoc tend to be best in Apoc games.

You know what they could crack down on? Special Characters. Dante doesn't have to be in every game. Special Characters used to be 'permission' only, now they are ubiquitous.

Reaver83 wrote:The bit I find amusing though is that everyone complains of the units in 40k for SM, eldar and orks - I think if you then see that at tournaments how few people take these armies - old and uncompetitive I wonder why people with new armies like GK/DE etc are so worried?

1) There aren't exactly many useful models for other armies than ig, orks, tau, eldar and vanilla marines, mostly due to them not having an IA book focusing on them yet. Just have look at all those awesome GK/DE models on the forgeworld website. Not everyone can play with forgeworld rules, even if they wanted. That makes it impossible for them to play the same game you play.
2) Claiming that only the "new and competitive" codices don't want to play forgeworld is absolute nonsense and made up. The most popular forgeworld armies are Death Korps of Krieg and Elysian Drop Troops. Last time I checked the IG codex was neither bad nor old. Besides, breaking the game with the few OP units FW has produced would hurt an old army much more than a new army.

Why you hatin' FW models? Let's just play!

I've held that attitude for a long time now, and maintain that those who refuse to play against FW rules are just afraid of losing.

Howard A Treesong wrote:You know what they could crack down on? Special Characters. Dante doesn't have to be in every game. Special Characters used to be 'permission' only, now they are ubiquitous.

However, every army has special characters, and you can know about their rules without buying multiple books worth $75 each or breaking the law.

Howard A Treesong wrote:You know what they could crack down on? Special Characters. Dante doesn't have to be in every game. Special Characters used to be 'permission' only, now they are ubiquitous.

That was before GW decided that they would make Special Characters such an integral part of giving the armies 'flavor'.

And anyone who doesn't want to play agains FW models (not rules, models) is a git.

Howard A Treesong wrote:You know what they could crack down on? Special Characters. Dante doesn't have to be in every game. Special Characters used to be 'permission' only, now they are ubiquitous.

The difference is how SC are used these days, as special rules to allow for whole new variations on the armies themes. Biker armies, deep striking armies, flame weapon armies, termy armies, sneaky armies, special weapons armies, etc. It is true they have become ubiquitous, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing when the rules of the game revolve around the concept. They aren't just big guns anymore, more often then not they are a key part of the flavor and strategy an army will use. By making them 'permission' only you essentially eliminate a good chunk of the available armies you can play against, because no one is going to spend hundreds of hours on an army who becomes illegal the moment the opponent refuses to give permission.

OP here.

I think I see where people are coming from regarding FW models now.

I use a FW dreadnought MODEL (not RULES) for my dreadnought & use the GW Codex for the rules...

I see this post has devolved into FW rules debate. That was never the original problem.

But I do see where folks (that I play against) are oppossed to FW now, most likely thinking I plan to use FW rules for my FW models.

I guess I'll need to be more clear in games that I am only using a FW model, not FW rules.

I've never really seen any problem with FW models... they are fun, and for the most part balanced.

Steelmage99 wrote:
1. Please, differentiate between using Forgeworld models and Imperial Armour.

Talking about just models. NOT rules.
2. The fact that FW is part of GW is completely and utterly irrelevant to any discussion about anything. I am sure I don't need to explain why.

Actually, folks still state that FW is not part of GW and their models (FW) are not legit to use. So I have to tell them it is not the case. Heck, in the WD there is a 2 page spread of FW and it says right there about FW models being used in reg games are a great edition to your forces.....
Having gotten that out of the way, it sounds like some very odd people that refuse to let you use a Forgeworld model (of appropriate dimensions) to represent a unit from Codex Imperial Guard.

I know....

daveNYC wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:You know what they could crack down on? Special Characters. Dante doesn't have to be in every game. Special Characters used to be 'permission' only, now they are ubiquitous.

That was before GW decided that they would make Special Characters such an integral part of giving the armies 'flavor'.

And anyone who doesn't want to play agains FW models (not rules, models) is a git.

riplikash wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:You know what they could crack down on? Special Characters. Dante doesn't have to be in every game. Special Characters used to be 'permission' only, now they are ubiquitous.

The difference is how SC are used these days, as special rules to allow for whole new variations on the armies themes. Biker armies, deep striking armies, flame weapon armies, termy armies, sneaky armies, special weapons armies, etc. It is true they have become ubiquitous, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing when the rules of the game revolve around the concept. They aren't just big guns anymore, more often then not they are a key part of the flavor and strategy an army will use. By making them 'permission' only you essentially eliminate a good chunk of the available armies you can play against, because no one is going to spend hundreds of hours on an army who becomes illegal the moment the opponent refuses to give permission.

So basically they've written special characters a requirement in many armies rather than just creating a flexible army list that can be tailored to a couple of different styles. There's no need to make a special character a requirement to achieve biker or terminator armies. The only reasoning that comes to mind for writing books in this manner is to conveniently encourage the sales on some of their most overpriced single figures.