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I play against an Ork player quite frequently, and invariably I get stomped, a few times even tabled. I do not have this problem vs. Nids, IG, or Space Wolves (I usually do quite well against those and if I lose it is a close game). Orks just destroy me. I'm getting tired of it and I'm turning to Dakka for help.

His standard makeup is HUGE mobs of Boyz w/ a Kan Wall taking the lead, Lootas, a Nob squad, sometimes Burna Boyz, almost always a Big Mec w/ a KFF. I just cannot shoot them fast enough, and once we close in CC it's all over for me. Even w/ Plague Marines (3+ w/ Feel No Pain 4+) I wind up taking so many armor saves that I'm finished. I've tried hanging back and shooting, I kill a decent number but I'm still swarmed. I've thrown a DP and GD into the mix and for all their attacks I still wind up getting pounded.

I've fought him to a tie in our last two games, both because I was able to hold objectives.

My list varies, but commonly looks like this:

Chaos Lord w/ Term armor or DP both w/ Mk of Nurgle
2 or 3 squads of 7 Plague Marines w/ icon and Asp. Champ w/ PF or PW in a Daemon Possessed Rhino
1 squad of 5 Terminators w/ Mk of Nurgle in a Land Raider (or 7 Terms Deep Striking w/ Chaos Lord)
Havoc squad w/ LC or ML, sometimes AC for longer range Dakka
Greater Daemon and sometimes Lesser Daemons

That's my most common general list, but I've also tried a Defiler, a Vindicator, Predators, etc

What can I do to kill more Orks? The only things I do not have available to me currently are Obliterators, Raptors, and Bikes. I have a full range of other squads / vehicles at the ready, I'm just frustrated that the absolute best I can do is run away and hope he doesn't catch me.

I've thought about putting blobs of 20 CSM per unit on the board but that isn't as appealing to me. However, I'm not opposed to the idea if you think it'll help me to stomp some Ork heads through a storm grate.

Ideas, opinions, and experiences are requested and welcomed. I don't know if I've explained everything properly so if there are any questions I'll be happy to answer them.

Thank you for your time.

Kan wall is a simple but effective list that almost plays itself. Thats why I dont' play it or like it much. It would get boring fast. This list has limited deployment options. You know how he will deploy every time. He has to do it this way because his army is so slow. So you get him to deploy and go first. You then deploy your whole force opposite one of his flanks. You will then have several turns to beat up his army one unit at a time. Crush one flank and then roll up his line. He just does not have the mobility to avoid this.
If you have to go first you may want to reserve your whole army. That way you can choose where to fight the battle as your units come on the table. He will have to deploy the same so you can flank his army again. You could deploy one unit in a corner as bait and then have your units come on the other side of the table. But it may be a bit tougher. At least you will have a fighting chance.

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:

I've fought him to a tie in our last two games, both because I was able to hold objectives.

My list varies, but commonly looks like this:

Chaos Lord w/ Term armor or DP both w/ Mk of Nurgle

What weapons and what abilities/upgrades are you buying for these two?

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:
2 or 3 squads of 7 Plague Marines w/ icon and Asp. Champ w/ PF or PW in a Daemon Possessed Rhino

Do you need the possessed rhino? Do you need a PW, especially vs orks? also, you are taking double specials (I hope)

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:
1 squad of 5 Terminators w/ Mk of Nurgle in a Land Raider (or 7 Terms Deep Striking w/ Chaos Lord)

again- what equipment? And deepstriking 7 terms with the lord sounds like a good idea for a mass plasma delivery system... against the boyz you could try mass flamers, but 1) you need to get closer and 2) due to the DS rules not all your terms would be able to fire their combiflamers. Outside of that, 7 terms are going to DS down and wait to be drowned in a tide of boyz.

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:
Havoc squad w/ LC or ML, sometimes AC for longer range Dakka

LC's against a horde, or even orks in general? Bad idea imo. Try 4 autocannons or 2 ML's 2 autocannons. Works great against lots of low AV vehicles (and there's 9 on the table for you to deal with )

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:
Greater Daemon and sometimes Lesser Daemons

Situational. The GD requires more list building around it than the LD's

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:
That's my most common general list, but I've also tried a Defiler, a Vindicator, Predators, etc

With what settups? If you have a full laspred, It's not going to do too much to the green tide. A single vindicator will also die real quick. They work best in pairs or triples. Defilers also work best in pairs. Defilers and vindi's are big targets that demand lots of firepower, and thus die quickly. Try two defilers if you have them.

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:
What can I do to kill more Orks? The only things I do not have available to me currently are Obliterators, Raptors, and Bikes. I have a full range of other squads / vehicles at the ready, I'm just frustrated that the absolute best I can do is run away and hope he doesn't catch me.

I've thought about putting blobs of 20 CSM per unit on the board but that isn't as appealing to me. However, I'm not opposed to the idea if you think it'll help me to stomp some Ork heads through a storm grate.

Ideas, opinions, and experiences are requested and welcomed. I don't know if I've explained everything properly so if there are any questions I'll be happy to answer them.

Have you tried CSM instead of plague marines? For a little bit less than your 7 plague marines, you get 10 CSM. If you give them a IoK, you get a unit that-
Has power armor.
Not fearless, but LD 10.
Boltguns, pistols and CCW's, so 2 attacks in CC base.
IoK gives them 3 attacks in CC base, 4 on the charge.
Rapid fires 20 shots the fights first vs the boyz with 30 attacks.
Bolt pistol 10 shots then charge in for 40 attacks.
Gets two special weapons.

Plague-O's are tough, but lack damage output. Try CSM's and bezerker's.

How many lootaz does he have? out of curiosity.

Also, as the above poster mentioned- denied flank. Is a good little tactic.

Yeah, as mentioned, plague marines aren't actually all that great against orks in close combat. If you're going to beat a green tide, you've got to beat them like marines, not like plague marines. This means that you need to get at LEAST two solid rounds of bolter fire in before they get in the charge.

Ideally, you'd use lash for this actually, making sure that you only get charged by one mob at a time, or by buffetting back boys to get in extra round of shooting. If you don't want to mix gods, you still have options.

Firstly, you should really consider a demon prince or two. Boyz get a lot of attacks, but MoN princes are going to be REALLY tough to kill.

Secondly, look to some psychic powers. Gifts will turn a mob with a nob with a pole into a mob with a morale disaster waiting to happen. Likewise, giant hordes of weak models is basically what nurgle's rot is DESIGNED for.

Also, you can use LSDs as a speedbump, giving you an extra turn of shooting.

Nurgle is primarily a shooty army. They're still CSM, so it's not like they're BAD in close combat, but, for their points, they're going to struggle against huge piles of sluggas. This means cleverness.

Oh, and also don't forget that you have blight grenades.

Ailaros wrote:Yeah, as mentioned, plague marines aren't actually all that great against orks in close combat. If you're going to beat a green tide, you've got to beat them like marines, not like plague marines. This means that you need to get at LEAST two solid rounds of bolter fire in before they get in the charge.

I dunno. With T5, pistols and CCW's and defensive grenades means they are good, but not against a big mob. Trukk mobs, or a whittled down battlewagon mob for sure. But a full mob of 20+ isn't good for them. (My friend used to run trukk or trukk/wagon lists )

2 MoN princes with rot, as Ailaros mentioned, is something put in the chaos codex specifically for this situation... And using the LSD's as a speedbump is also an excellent idea (does...anyone else read that the way I read that? LSD is not what I commonly hear applied to warhammer, usually something else...)

Warboss Brokentoof wrote:You then deploy your whole force opposite one of his flanks. You will then have several turns to beat up his army one unit at a time. Crush one flank and then roll up his line. He just does not have the mobility to avoid this.

This isn't WHFB...

did you read what he wrote? Denying a flank is (I hope) a fairly well known 40k tactic, especially when you have a larger force ('nids, orks for example) vs a small elite force (any MEQ.).

Jihallah wrote:I dunno. With T5, pistols and CCW's and defensive grenades means they are good, but not against a big mob.

Right, this is actually one of the things that got me to chose khorne instead of nurgle. Both boyz and PMs want to play a game of attrition. PMs do it by being ultra-tough, while boyz do it with pure numbers. The problem, though, is that the pure number of attacks of the boyz, despite losing half of them to FNP, are still too much for the PMs, because they throw back such relatively little damage per point in return. It turns out that the best way to beat boyz is to thin down their numbers quickly, rather than to try and outlast their huge pile of attacks. Per point, berzerkers beat big mobs while PMs lose to them. That the boyz get to strike simultaneously with the PMs on the charge is just killer.

Actually, if you do the math on lots of stuff, the "minimize turns in combat (by killing them quickly)" is actually a better way to keep your troops alive, even than FNP.

Of course, we're talking about close combat, though. Khorne is designed to excel here, while nurgle isn't. As nurgle is a much more shooty army than khorne, you really have to rely on this more.

And take rot

He always forgets that he has blight grenades. Of course I always forget that I get +1 initiative on the charge...

He also forgot that I almost always run 3 Def Koptas with Buzz Saws and TL Rokkits.

Regular CSM might be a good choice here. Firstly, they are a lot cheaper than cult troops, secondly, you get a lot more bodies to fight with, and much more fire power.

A 10 man CSM sqad basic with no frills is just 150 points. And each comes standard with a bolter, a bolt pistol and close combat weapon.

If you stand still while his green tide comes at you, you get to shoot him from 24 inches on. When he gets to 12 inches, you get to rapid fire him 20 shots. And then in close combat, you have 20 attacks, (30 if you charge him).

Sounds pretty good in my book. People under estimate regular CSM sometimes. Fact is, that while they lose against specialist troops, they are more than a match against regular troops.

600 points of regular CSM means you take 40 space marines. You then got lots of other points to take other stuff too. And 40 space marines should be able to give a stand up fight to green tide, with support.

I like my Berzerkers. Provided I get the charge first and depending on how large the mob is, I can charge in and wipe out most of them before they get the chance to hit me back enough to cause a ton of casualties, and then you tie up that entire mob of boyz that next player turn. If you can, having another one of your squads charge in could help you clean them up if your zerkers need it, or if their numbers are low enough you can leave them alone.. Again, with zerkers you ABSOLUTELY MUST get the charge first, otherwise your bonus attacks and Furious Charge do not apply and they effectively become MoK CSM.

In general, leave the Plague Marines at home when playing against orks, or most assault-oriented armies for that matter. The toughness isn't much of a benefit against the huge mob of boyz in CC, and orkz aren't good enough at shooting to make the points for T5 and FNP worth it anyway. For shooty guys, I would suggest Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters or anything you can squeeze into your armies with lots of shots, I.E. Heavy bolters, autocannons for vehicles if there are any, etc.

DPs with MoN and Nurgle's Rot are probably the best HQ choice you can take for this situation. Depending on the size of the game, I would suggest you take two of them if you can.

Anything meant to crack high armor on vehicles, like LCs or power fists, etc. should be dropped. You most likely won't need them (unless your opponent likes to use a kan wall list) for the paper-thin Ork transports anyway. Autocannons will do just fine to pacify these.

For regular CSMs, if you take any, a heavy bolter might not be a bad idea for the squad, though if you want to get a little closer, you can take MoK with flamers. As with the Berzerkers, make sure you are careful with their distances from the boyz, and if you can pull off assaulting those CSMs in with maybe another CSM squad, or zerkers, or get support some other way, those can do fairly well, too.

Just my two cents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

If you stand still while his green tide comes at you, you get to shoot him from 24 inches on. When he gets to 12 inches, you get to rapid fire him 20 shots. And then in close combat, you have 20 attacks, (30 if you charge him).

You can't charge after firing a rapid-fire weapon in the same turn, unfortunately.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Again, with zerkers you ABSOLUTELY MUST get the charge first, otherwise your bonus attacks and Furious Charge do not apply and they effectively become MoK CSM.

...who are still WS5 and fearless. You don't really need the charge in order to shred boyz. If anything, you can think of the +1 A as meaning that they still get the charge, even when they don't.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:

If you stand still while his green tide comes at you, you get to shoot him from 24 inches on. When he gets to 12 inches, you get to rapid fire him 20 shots. And then in close combat, you have 20 attacks, (30 if you charge him).

You can't charge after firing a rapid-fire weapon in the same turn, unfortunately.

Right, but it's still the way to go. 10 regular CSM vs 25 boyz for the same price. Assuming one round of single tap, one round of double tap, and still attacking first, even though you were charged still puts down 50 attacks. That's 15 of the boyz dead without a KFF, and 12 of them with, and that's before they get a single swing in. Put another way, assuming you play your bolters right, the boyz shouldn't be chopping you without at least half their numbers thinned out already. Once close combat settles in, it's going to be non-FC boyz against a lot of 4s in the statline followed by a 3+ at the end. It's basically the way marines handle orks.

The problem that nurgle has, though, is that its shooting is exactly the same, but way more expensive. If the key thing is to get bolter rounds downrange, and you have fewer bolters, you have a problem. A 10-man CSM squad being charged by 10 sluggas is one thing, a 6-man PM squad getting hit by 20 is another...

... and, of course, once you add klaws to the mix, the nurgle force just folds, while the CSM can still scrap it out for a win.

I've played both armies here. Ailaros' advice is one way to do it, if you want to rebuild your entire army. What you actually want is tactical advice. Your composition is perfectly fine, you're just going about it wrong. The trick is to beat him in close combat. It's called the Hammer and Anvil. You'll need to get your Plague Marines to steal his charge, then clean up with a dedicated melee squad (Terminators) once they're pinned.

Here's how you steal the charge. Try to keep terrain between his orks and your Rhinos. Pick a mob and stay about 14" away from it. Your aim is to, at best, get the Boyz to complete the charge without letting the Nob get close enough to swing. At worst you want them to attempt the charge and fail, landing them in range for your counter-charge. He'll try though, and when he does you disembark and charge him right back. This will force the mob to wrap around your Plague Marines, virtually preventing the mob from being reinforced.

The point isn't to kill 225 points of Boyz with 225 points of Marines. You want to level 600 points of Marines at 225 points of Boyz and destroy him one mob at a time. As Brokentoof pointed out, you want to engage him on his flanks where he can't bring his whole army to bear. His own models are simply in the way. Once you have that Plague Marine squad wrapped up snug you can bring in your Terminators whenever you damn well please. Remember that models which are engaged in close combat cannot target new squads entering the combat on the turn they do. By having the Plague Marines there first absorbing the damage, your Terminators cannot be harmed. A single squad of Plague Marines can usually do this twice, which should be about half his boyz.

Honestly, I used to do this strategy with Lesser Daemons. No Retreat does all the heavy lifting. In your place, I'd take roughly:

Nurgle Prince, Wings, Rot
5 tooled up Terminators (without Icon of Nurgle, thank you) in a Landraider
7 Plaguers, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino (not Possessed)
7 Plaguers, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino (not Possessed)
7 Plaguers, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino (not Possessed) (the Meltaguns are just because I want to keep this as a take-all-comers list, feel free to take whatever)
8 Havocs, 4 Missile Launchers
About 1500 points

Or that. There is a field position way to handle this, given that you are putting your points onto a very tiny footprint, while the orks are putting theirs on a very large one.

It will take a lot more practice than just sticking rot in your list, but it certainly can be done.