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It seems that everyone claims that the best loadout for a Space Marine captain is Relic Blade (and Artificier Amour). This post is to argue that Relic Blade is an inferior choice in almost all the cases versus another option which retains your initiative.

I present to you three CC options that are popular amongst captain's loadouts:
- Relic Blade (you don't get +1 2nd weapon attack so you can pick whatever as your 2nd weapon)
- Pair of Lightning Claws
- Thunder Hammer
- UPDATE: Now including Bolt Pistol + Power Weapon + Digital Weapon
- UPDATE: Now including Bolt Pistol + Power Weapon

All these options cost the same (a little more than a power fist), but against infantry and monstrous creatures (which is what your captain will face), how well do these options stack up?

I present to you here, the Mathhammer
T - RB - TLC - TH - BP+PW - BP+PW+DW
3 - 1.25 - 1.78 - 1.25 - 1.33 - 1.60
4 - 1.25 - 1.50 - 1.25 - 1.00 - 1.24
5 - 1.00 - 1.11 - 1.25 - 0.67 - 0.83
6 - 0.75 - 0.61 - 1.25 - 0.33 - 0.42
7 - 0.50 - 0.61 - 1.00 - 0.33 - 0.42
8 - 0.25 - 0.00 - 0.75 - 0.00 - 0.00

NOTE:
- I use a 4+ to hit (since this is what happens most of the time, this doesn't affect the analysis in any way).
- Captain gets 3 attacks for Relic Blade and Thunder Hammer.
- Captain gets 4 attacks for Twin Lightning Claws, BP+PW, BP+PW+DW.

As you can see, in almost all cases (except for vs T6), TLC comes out on top. This is due to the way rerolling wounds work. Thunder hammer does consistently well AND it has the ability to instant kill a lot of things. But against Toughness 3-4 (which is what MEQ are), it is a subpar weapon. Plus, you lose your initiative which would be pretty terrible.



UPDATE: After adding better analysis for digital weapon, the choice is still rather unclear. You can still stick with Relic Blade but TLC is a better choice for the same cost. Do you trust that extra bolt pistol shot when you take Relic Blade? Do you want to get that Stormshield for just little more protection?

Digital weapon certainly helps your typical BP+PW setup by a consistent 25% but can you use that 10 pts for Hellfire round (when your captain is on bike)? or can you use that toward a lascannon on your tac squad?

So, is Relic Blade the best close combat loadout for Space Marine captain without affecting his initiative? The mathhammer has decided, and the answer is NO.

If your captain is riding a bike, TLC is always a better choice than a Relic Blade since you get the extra twin-linked bolter shots.

Also, on a related note, this is why a Chapter Champion (with reroll to hit and reroll to wound against IC) is an absolute beast when you consider that he has 3 wounds (2 other honour guards) that cannot be instant kill due to wound allocation shennanigans. But that is the content of another thread.

Digital weapons only re-roll 1 failed to wound roll, LC let you re-roll any failed to wound rolls.

Also if you take 2 LC you cant take a SS. If you take relic blade or TH you can take SS. 3++ better then 4++.

just something to think about.

Relic blade is superior to PW/BP or TLC for anything but clearing out guard or gaunts.

Hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's is too good to pass up, AND as a bonus, since you don't get bonus attack in CC, a stormshield will help prolong your captain's life.

Who takes a Captain in the first place? Biker armies need him but he doesn't do anything otherwise.

DarkHound wrote:Who takes a Captain in the first place? Biker armies need him but he doesn't do anything otherwise.

+1

On my biker captain, I slap a powerfist and a combi-plasma. IMO, that is the best load-out for a cheap, but killy captain.

Dual LC is a very good choice for a captain. Sadly, the only captains you see in competitive play are the following.
* Vulcan
* Shrike
* Bike Captain (or Kahn)
* Lysander

Everyone else takes the librarian. Null zone is one of the best things out of the C:SM codex, and the psychic defense is nearly mandatory.
If you are not going to run one of the above captains, and want to bring one, then the TL LC is a fantastic loadout. ( In fact, that's what Shrike carries )

It's never Relic Blade vs Lightning Claws. It's Relic Blade and Storm Shield vs Lightning Claws.

DarknessEternal wrote:It's never Relic Blade vs Lightning Claws. It's Relic Blade and Storm Shield vs Lightning Claws.

This. A Captain with a Relic Blade loses nothing from taking a storm shield, because he's already given up the ability to gain an extra attack. Taking a Captain with a relic blade and storm shield is pricey, but is the best combination of offense and defense you can get with a regular Captain (although at this point, why not just take Vulkan or Lysander?)

Dual LC isn't bad, and it gets you slightly better offense for a minimal reduction in defense (Captains already get a 4+ Inv). It's also cheaper if you count the storm shield.

I want to know why Space Marine Captains lost Rites of Battle. In a list with 7-10 squads of infantry, that +1 Ld starts to look really tempting really quick.

I thought a Relic Blade was master crafted, did you account for the re-roll to miss?

I might be misremembering of course...

A benefit to the Relic Blade you are missing is it can also instant kill T3 models which are less prevalent than T4 but a nice bonus against some armies (that shadowfield Archon for example)

Also, how is a TH the same all the way up to toughness 8? It should start declining in effectiveness at T7 when it is a 3+ to wound.

Finally, a Relic Blade can wound T8 and is not a 0.

@calypso2ts: Thank you for being the first one who really comments on the Mathhammer and for correcting them. I made several mistakes while copying thing over from my spreadsheet.
I have yet to meet a T3 models that survive long enough to be in combat however.

Relic Blade + Stormshield cost 45 pts, that is 20 pts more than BP+PW+Digital Weapon. 20 pts can mean a lascannon upgrade for a missle launcher devastator or it can be 4 combi-weapons for sternguards. And stormshield gives miniscule advantage over iron halo.

Hence the entire premise of this discussion: what would be a better CC wargear for Captain.

@RexNine: Thank you for correcting me. I will update my analysis with BP+PW+Digital Weapon. It seems the counting rule for this is a bit harder.

look i understand what people are saying about the relic blade and the answer is simple TLC everytime. they are heavily underrated but they work fantastically.

Roboute wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:It's never Relic Blade vs Lightning Claws. It's Relic Blade and Storm Shield vs Lightning Claws.

This. A Captain with a Relic Blade loses nothing from taking a storm shield, because he's already given up the ability to gain an extra attack. Taking a Captain with a relic blade and storm shield is pricey, but is the best combination of offense and defense you can get with a regular Captain (although at this point, why not just take Vulkan or Lysander?)

I don't think the SS is really worth it. You're paying a premium for a +1 to your invul save. a 4+ invul ain't that bad. I'd rather give him a combi, probably of the melta variety. He's not getting a bonus attack from 2 CCW's because of the relic blade, and I'd rather that extra melta shot in case he/his squad need to charge a vehicle/transport.

A single relic blade with artificer armor or TLC and artificer armor is how I roll. Works perfectly all the time, thought I do have a dual power fist captain for fluff reasons as well.

Jihallah wrote:

Roboute wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:It's never Relic Blade vs Lightning Claws. It's Relic Blade and Storm Shield vs Lightning Claws.

This. A Captain with a Relic Blade loses nothing from taking a storm shield, because he's already given up the ability to gain an extra attack. Taking a Captain with a relic blade and storm shield is pricey, but is the best combination of offense and defense you can get with a regular Captain (although at this point, why not just take Vulkan or Lysander?)

I don't think the SS is really worth it. You're paying a premium for a +1 to your invul save. a 4+ invul ain't that bad. I'd rather give him a combi, probably of the melta variety. He's not getting a bonus attack from 2 CCW's because of the relic blade, and I'd rather that extra melta shot in case he/his squad need to charge a vehicle/transport.

A very good point. Dual LC forgoes ranged weaponry, and there are times when you just really need that one BS5 melta shot to pop something important. In terms of overall cost efficiency, Relic Blade + SS isn't on top, and in that sense Dual LCs are better.

Bolt pistol+PW+Digital weapons is actually more optimal than Dual LC if you're looking to save a few points and plan on fighting T3 or T4 models. A Captain with 3 attacks will, on average, hit with 2 and wound with 1 against your average Space Marine, meaning you'll only need the one re-roll in most situations. Against MCs, the LCs are better, as you have a higher likelihood of getting more than one hit that doesn't wound.

The Relic Blade is still better.

A few notes:

You are assuming we did not get the charge. That's a 3/4 ratio instead of 4/5. That changes things significantly.
Also the big difference even with the 3/4 ratio (which already favors LC) is against 3 toughness. However unlike LCs, the RB insta-kills at 3 toughness. Also it's less relevant there since if we're engaged in CC with 3 toughness models, we usually win those anyway even with tactical marines.

Those are the big ones, and why I choose relic blade.

I always play a basic captain with a relic blade. I really don't care about a stormshield. I like to use his command squad with 4 plasma guns in a pod.

works fantastic for me. I see it like this. the captain is ALWAYS going to get targeted by a powerfist or claw etc something to kill him outright. a 3++ is nice but I don't care to spend the points when I can place it elsewhere. his role is not to be this unstoppable close combat machine. but to simply add support. I have personally done fantastic with my captains with a simple relic blade and nothing else other then a bike once in a while. I like it cheap and basic. IMO I think artificer armor and SS is a waste of points. would rather fit in another tank from the over all points i save.

@Lotus: Could you kindly show the mathhammer which "changes things significantly" that would favor a Relic Blade over TLC?

ID T3 models happen so infrequent that it is only a minor perk.

@Gamza: 4 Plasma + RB +Drop Pod is a very nice option. I have seen some success with that. But then I switch to 4Plasma + RB all on bikes.

@Roboute: I thought like you did as well but mathhammer doesn't lie. For 5pts extra (16% more pts) , an upgrade from BP+PW+DW to TLC give you a 20% more killiness.

I don't really see the point of they argument. SM captain shouldn't be taken for how choppy they are. Just not points efficient for how many attacks you get. If you aren't taking them to unlock command squads or biker troops, why are you taking one? At their points cost you could be well on your way to another unit. For less points I could take a librarian who is decently competent in melee, and comes with a force weapon and nifty powers that help your army.

While super HQ heroes may sound cool in theory, the stats of the captain just aren't worth the points. Heck, if you want 2LC, why not just take shrike and get some useful rules out of it?

@notabot187: you answered your own question. People take captain because it unlocks those options. Hence the reason for this thread.

What about a single LC+SS? That's what I run on my Biker CPT.

-Reece

I play with a biker captain and usually run him with a Relic Blade. I'm not looking for TLC to dice up T3 models... the twin linked bolters on the bikes do that for me.

I take a Relic Blade because it is a blend of high strength that doesn't give up his initiative. Something it will always have over TLC is the ability to penetrate armor in CC.

@Wildstorm: unless my mathhammer is wrong, taking TLC is ALWAYS better than Relic Blade for Captain on a bike because as the table above clearly shows, TLC > Relic Blade (except for T8+). Since Captain on a bike already has the extra guns, running Relic Blade for captain on bike is a bad choice.

I like how the mathhammer has left out key reasons to take a relic blade.

Ability to instagib T3? Check
Ability to take either ranged weaponry or a storm shield AND digital weapon if desired? Check
Ability to threaten AV12 and lower with all CC attacks? Check
Ability to do all the above at initiative? Check

Relic blade.


Now, as to why you suddenly can't take a relic blade if you're in terminator armor, that I'd like to know.

I don't know as well why one cannot take RB for termies. Nor can I understand why termies can run but they can't sweep.

The mathhammer only tell you the number of wounds you will get, the things you list are perks indeed. I do agree with them but I have never had a chance to see those things in action. Perhaps one day I would. (and then I will kick myself in the rear for not bringing a RB).

leohart wrote:I do agree with them but I have never had a chance to see those things in action. Perhaps one day I would. (and then I will kick myself in the rear for not bringing a RB).

That's awfully backwards. You admit you'll never use a Relic Blade, but are willing to change your stance if you experience the perks of the Relic Blade... that you'll never take.

Relic blade and SS. You are also WS 6 so you're hitting most things on 3+ not 4+ and then you're wounding most things on a 2+

leohart wrote:@Wildstorm: unless my mathhammer is wrong, taking TLC is ALWAYS better than Relic Blade for Captain on a bike because as the table above clearly shows, TLC > Relic Blade (except for T8+). Since Captain on a bike already has the extra guns, running Relic Blade for captain on bike is a bad choice.

Please run your mathhammer calcs against vehicles and then let's talk. BTW, don't add in rerolls for TLC when you do the armor penetration math. Your "ALWAYS" statement is a bit off.

@DarkHound: Did I admit that I will never use a Relic Blade somewhere in the thread? (sincere question, no rhetoric)

@The Crusader: Yes. As noted, the calculation uses 4+ since it doesn't change the ratio of probability between the options.

@Wildstorm: I don't see the reason for me to do the work. ;-) But my gut feeling is that "always" is indeed a bit off.