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Im going to be heading up to my local game store and i have been thinking about getting another HQ. I have two Archons (one is equiped with what gw provides the other has phantasm,agaoniser,and blast pistol. Im kinda tied between getting a heamy or a succubus. If you guys don't mind can you help me decide on what to get.

Haemonculus. Stick him with a wych squad or other cc unit and they get a free pain token to start. Leave him in the transport and have him fly around liquifying.

Haemonculus, The succubus may look cooler, but the Haemy is just generally a great HQ, regardless of the points value.

If you're buying for aesthetic though, go with the Succubus.

At least two Haemonculus makes an appearance in all of my lists, the pain token they provide is a bonus that can't be passed up.

Haemy for sure, I actually like the model for him more than the succubus also.

Haemonculi, kept cheap, are good value, granting an assault unit FnP then spending the rest of the battle liquifying stuff astride their transport.

Alternatively/additionally, those assault units without grenades (Grots, Incubi) benefit greatly from a PGL Archon.

I used to love the Succubus but tbh she's not worth the slot.

WhiteZombie wrote:At least two Haemonculus makes an appearance in all of my lists, the pain token they provide is a bonus that can't be passed up.

*Raises hand*

I don't use Haemy's and it works out fine. A Succubus is an excellent buy: for 85 points you get an I8 WS8 model with plenty of power weapon attacks that always wound on a 4+ and a 4++ in CC. @ 1500 points i use 2 troop wychs and 1 bloodbrides unit with the succubus, and none have a haemy.

Nothing wrong with a haemy either. If you are looking to make your wychs tarpits, then they are a solid choice.

However, there is a bit of a myth about them being required. Wychs work just fine without a haemy.

You could be a tool and spam haemonculi, or you could look at getting something to make one of the special HQ's. Since you're running archons, think about converting a new model to somebody named, or you can always get one of the snake guys as the sicilus guy.

Not sure one of the Slyth would be a great Duke model.

Haemonculi and named characters are the only HQs that support the army, that offer something other than ass-kicking from the HQ slot.

Since you already have a pair of ass-kicking HQs why not look at something that offers your army something different?

I use the Duke and three Heamonculus w/ Liquifier.
Remember that you can take up to 3 Independent Haems for each HQ slot.

I believe that point for point, the Duke is the greatest HQ option.
More so for his special effects than being a beast in CC.

In regards to modelling him, just make a cool looking DE with 2 venom blades. If you read the fluff it says he never wears the same costume twice, so you can just about get away with anything.

And no he's not a snake.

I'm inordinately fond of running Urien Rakath (doubles as a haemy ancient if need be) and using a Lhamean as Lady Malys.

I have used other setups. It depends a lot on my list.

I like duke but i don't know really where to fight him since i don't really one warriors to do alot of killing.My usually armies include 2-3 ten man splinter warriors squads in a raider,2-3 ten man wyches in raiders (they either spam razorflails or shardnets.),a archon who rides in a raider with nine incubi,and for heavy support i switch from razorwing to ravengers. So im trying to find another hq to fight into my list since i don't like the dual archon thing since im not sold on any other weapon a archon can take other then the agaoniser.So i want something in my list other then another archon.

The Duke's poison is his least interesting ability; dumping him in with 9 warriors (10 won't fit in a raider w/ him) won't suddenly make them monstrously powerful, just a bit more effective.

He lets you roll 2 dice for drugs and pick. Since you're running 2~3 wych squads this is a huge plus, allowing you to tailor your drugs to the army you're facing (a bit anyway)

He lets you deepstrike raiders/venoms, and while this has limited value, against the right army, at the right time, it could be a very worthwhile stunt.

You could run the Duke INSTEAD of your archon, and dump a "naked" Haemonculus in with the incubi. they could leave him behind in the raider, while taking his pain token. 3+ w/ FNP makes them that much tougher to wound, which is good because 9 (the squad size you're running) will munch through most MEQ squads in a single assault phase and have to sit in the open, taking fire for a turn.

Duke is best deployed with Shardcarbine Trueborn, and maybe 1-2 Splinter cannons to make the most out of the upgrade.

29 BS4 Poison 3+ shots is pretty brutal. Best part is that they keep the upgrade regardless of whether Duke leaves squad.

I usually do a 'skiff-swap' at the start of the match; having the Duke swap Raiders with a Heamonculus in a Wyche squad, then have the Raiders part ways.

Maige wrote:Duke is best deployed with Shardcarbine Trueborn, and maybe 1-2 Splinter cannons to make the most out of the upgrade.

29 BS4 Poison 3+ shots is pretty brutal. Best part is that they keep the upgrade regardless of whether Duke leaves squad.

I usually do a 'skiff-swap' at the start of the match; having the Duke swap Raiders with a Heamonculus in a Wyche squad, then have the Raiders part ways.

The problem with that is that its incredibly inefficient. You pour a heap of points into those Shardcarbines (which eats up a slot for Blasterborn etc etc) but you get more damage output out of Venoms for the same cost from longer range (up until the point you can't take more Venoms of course, but that's 2500+). I'm not saying you don't put the Duke with a unit to use the buff, I would just limit it to a Warrior unit since jumping from 5 with Blaster to 9 with Blaster isn't too bad points wise and it ensures you get some use from that particular buff. Having said that the Drugs re-roll and the Deep Strike Ability are far more powerful to the point that not taking a Warrior unit for him to run with is perfectly fine if you are making the most of those two abilities.

Maige wrote: I usually do a 'skiff-swap' at the start of the match; having the Duke swap Raiders with a Heamonculus in a Wyche squad, then have the Raiders part ways.

not sure i get that.

If the Duke, the Haemonculus or any unit start embarked, it can't disembark and then embark in a new transport the same turn. so either you're starting them out of transports (and 1 game in 6 something bad happens to them when someone seizes the initiative) or there's a rules issues.

and i agree w/ powerguy: trueborn with shardcarbines are too expensive.

on a lark, i tried the duke with a squad of 20 warriors on foot w/ 2 splinter cannons. i had them hold an objective (maybe spread between 2? it was a while ago) all game and the duke was useful in CC when a non-specialist assault unit turned up to try and pull them off the objective in the late game. the firepower was useful, but somewhat overkill on MSU type units. still, i'd do it again before i bothered kitting out trueborn for anti-infantry.

the duke works well... so does the baron, or even vect if your playing larger points.

HQ wise theres alot to choose from... and really with DE it should be something to multiply the rest of your armies power. ie the baron joining beastmasters, or the duke attaching to trueborn.

Haemy are basically good to field fnp 1st turn.
Lelith is good jumping in /w a squad of bloodbrides, and ditching them when moveing to assault. most enemies have ws4, she has ws9, and her special rule in this case would give her +5 attacks - one for each difference of the HIGHEST ws in the enemy squad.
Slisuc: usually field him to give the warriors the 3+ wound, wytches - if i play them - the 2d6 for drugs and to ds my venoms and raiders and ravagers in to the enemies ars - pardon.

If my opinions changes anything: get sliscus or 3 haemy - those count as a signle hq choice but are independent chars.

First off I would go with a haemonculus. Our generic HQs aren't that great, but these guys can buff the normal troopers. Succubi aren't that great and seem like little more than a glorified hekatrix at times that takes away an HQ slot that can be better spent elsewhere.

Named HQs are pretty good.
Malys and Vect are nice at higher levels. Duke Sliscus is good at mid point games, and Baron is good as long as you have some beasts. Urien is fun to lead a Coven list. Other than that I'd say pass. Lelith is double the cost from the old book and does the same amount of damage, but can die easier and doesn't have drugs. Kheradrukah is just bad and Drazhar has promise until you realise its 10 more points and you get Vect.

archons arent bad. they can be kept cheap, and with a small unit of brides or incubi on a venom he can make a nice impact in CC. they dont need much gear either. drugs, SF, and a CC weapon (i go power weapon) make him pretty boss. the drugs work pretty well in boosting your power in CC untill you get pain tokens, and he then chops infantry pretty well. the agonizer also works well, and is good for fighting MC. sucks when fighting T3 and you end up with the drugs +1S and pain token FC. but oh well.

Haemy is the go to HQ choice....

With a LIQ 60pts. Gives a free pain token to any unit he joins....


got 5 Incubi in a Raider with FNP oooohhhh

or 9 wyches with FNP and a 4++ in hth... ooooohhhhh


Haemy over Succ anyday....

Powerguy wrote: The problem with that is that its incredibly inefficient. You pour a heap of points into those Shardcarbines (which eats up a slot for Blasterborn etc etc) but you get more damage output out of Venoms for the same cost from longer range (up until the point you can't take more Venoms of course, but that's 2500+). I'm not saying you don't put the Duke with a unit to use the buff, I would just limit it to a Warrior unit since jumping from 5 with Blaster to 9 with Blaster isn't too bad points wise and it ensures you get some use from that particular buff. Having said that the Drugs re-roll and the Deep Strike Ability are far more powerful to the point that not taking a Warrior unit for him to run with is perfectly fine if you are making the most of those two abilities.

I'm gonna have to run some math-hammer on that, originally I intended to take the warriors with a raider splinter rack, but I found that the 'poison deathstar' Trueborn score more hits, have better range, and are still effective on foot. The points difference was 57-67pts depending on whether cannons were included, so I suppose that would be another +SC Venom.

chelsea_hollywood wrote:not sure i get that.

Probably because I explained it dreadfully. I'm not hopping them over on the first turn, that would be illegal. But I meant that I keep them close with the aim of joining the Duke to a Wyche squad asap. And getting the Haem into the shooty squad.

Even if Splinter-born aren't "that" much less efficient, there's still the issue with using an elite slot for something other than anti-tank.

while not everyone agrees (duh) on how much anti-tank to bring in a list, elite slots offer some of the most efficient (points wise) places to get BOTH good anti-tank (blaster-born) AND good anti-infantry (venom) in a single slot. for a lot of people, turning that down is unfathomable.

All this debate over how best to use the Duke, but nothing really against using him probably should be taken as a hint by the OP as to how good he is/can be in the right list.

This has helped a little bit. Next few matches im going to try out the duke,a few heamys, and a succubus. Here is my list for me test out the succubus in a 2000 point match:
HQ
Archon w/ Agoniser,phantasm grenade launcher,ghostplate armor,shadowfield,drugs
Succubus w/ agoniser

Elites
9 man Incubi w/ raider w/ trophies,nightshield,flickerfields,and torment launchers
9 man bloodbrides w/ 3 shardnets, haywire, syren w/ agoniser and raider w/ trophies,flickerfield,nightshields,torment lauchers

Troops
2x 10 warriors w/ splinter cannon, and raider w/ nightshields,flickerfields
2x 10 man wyches w/ 2 shardnets,haywire, hekatrix w/ agoniser, and raider w/ trophies,torment launchers,flicker flields,night shields
Heavy support
Ravenger w/ nightshields,flickerfeilds
Razorwing w/ splinter cannon, 4 necrotoxin, flickerfield, nightshields

Its three points over but our friends give a five point over limit.

this is now off topic, but i used 3 haemy w liq gun, 9 incu - no ups - in raider w FF, +2*Blasterborn in venom w dual cannon, 2 wytches w shardnets, heka w agoniser, all haywire in radiers w FF and a sq of 10 kabalites w blaster in raider w FF and Splinter Racks. All raiders have shock prows, and i still have 51pt or so to spend on ups. 3 FNP CC unites, 12 lances, moderate shooting and loads of haywire. 50 models + the transports

enfernux wrote:this is now off topic, but i used 3 haemy w liq gun, 9 incu - no ups - in raider w FF, +2*Blasterborn in venom w dual cannon, 2 wytches w shardnets, heka w agoniser, all haywire in radiers w FF and a sq of 10 kabalites w blaster in raider w FF and Splinter Racks. All raiders have shock prows, and i still have 51pt or so to spend on ups. 3 FNP CC unites, 12 lances, moderate shooting and loads of haywire. 50 models + the transports

I like the list but the one i put up is kinda a general thing i do since my main two oppents are sisters and necrons. THe necrons are primarly foot based with the occasanly monolith and annhilation barge/command barge. The sisters haven't played in a while so i can't really remeber. So lately my lists have been using nightshields to reduce the necrons 24 inch range to 18 inch range which is usually assualt range for my deadly stuff. The only model in his army that actually effects me is his veil of darkness crpytic that is always with lychguard and the lychguard loves to go after my archon and his incubi.

Haemi's are the best HQ choice in the book and sometimes you want to take more than one so at this point get a haemi. Succi arent bad but they really do the same thing as an archon, slightly worse for less points. Haemi's open up a world of possibilities.

Exergy wrote:Haemi's are the best HQ choice in the book and sometimes you want to take more than one so at this point get a haemi. Succi arent bad but they really do the same thing as an archon, slightly worse for less points. Haemi's open up a world of possibilities.

There is actually a tipping point where the archon becomes better. The archon *becomes* better than the succubus by purchasing expensive wargear. When you start putting expensive wargear on the archon, especially the standard loadout (huskblade/soul trap), it becomes an IC hunter. The succubus kills infantry in droves for a very cheap cost. Aside from a blaster achon (if I'm really hurting for more AT), I don't think I'd take an archon tooled for less than 100 points. The succubus, on the other hand, is a MACHINE coming in at only 85 (succubus + agon)

but the archon, can do infantry chopping just as well as a succubus, and is more survivable to shooting and in CC. an archon with agonizer, shadow field, drugs and a blast pistol is 135 and has that 2+ invun, ability to blast tanks (albeit at close range), drugs for nice buffs, and 6 power weapon attacks on the charge. (granted they wound on 4+ but considering str 3 and majority toughness is 4 or more, it beats the otherwise 5+ required)

the succubus is cheaper, by about 50 pts has the same attacks, but looses in the invun save dept. a 4+ in combat is ok, but on an IC its not much. plus what happens when she leaves combat? bolters will shred her.

archons are a touch more expensive, but thats really just for adding more versatile kit, and making him more durable. base points wise the archon is 5 pts cheaper. (but the succubus comes with drugs, wich the archon pays 10pts for... so yea, not much diffrence really)