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Hello,

So, my more experienced friend runs mechanized orks, usually the list includes 2 BW with burnaz + mek in one and 9 nobs and warboss in second. Even if I manage to blow nobs battle wagon early, they still are tough nut to crack. My berserkers are not very efficient against them and the only other dedicated CC unit I use are princes. Last game this deathstar killed my chosen + berserkers, moved on to obliterators and last 3 managed to kill defiler :( So, I got advice that I should bring power weapons and Slaanesh Lord with daemon weapon. Lord for insta killing and power weapons for FnP avoidance.

I`m thinking about squad of chosen with LC / power weapons joined by term or not term lord either with dual LC or daemon weapon. Problem is I like my chosen as dedicated can opener (3-4 meltas and 1-2 flamers, rhino 5 man squad) and the second problem is how to deliver this unit? LR is expensive and rhinos are risky. Also how should I deal with this death star in all comers list?

Firstly, if you want lightning claws, take MoK termies.

Secondly, I think you're talking about a force contentration problem, not a list problem. I mean, if you're facing down a big squad of mega armored nobs with nothing more than a regular squad of berzerkers, you are probably bringing WAY fewer points to that engagement than he is. Of course you would lose.

Elite heavy lists with AV14 transports are good at force concentration, which means they always have local superiority, which means they tend to win whichever particular battle they've chosen to fight. The best way to counter this with CSM is to practice good force concentration of your own.

For example, place two squads of berzerkers next to each other so that when one gets charged by a 300 point squad of nobz, they get countercharged by a second squad of berzerkers right away, tipping it from a 200 v. 300 point close combat to a 400 v. 300 point close combat.

Keep your units in such a way that they can support each other well, and some of these problems will begin to disappear.

That PW Chosen unit is pretty meh. I wouldn't bother. A Slaaneshi Lord would hard-counter the Nobs in a hurry. Assuming your Defiler has 4 CCWs (which I don't advocate, except in this scenario) and your Berserkers have a Powerfist, charge him with both at the same time. The Defiler will want to find the Warboss and give him a good stompin'. The Berserker's Powerfist will get another instant death and the Berserkers themselves will get 2 wounds. You're looking at 7 wounds towards combat resolution. Even if the Orks get 4 kills in return, they'll probably break and then you can escort them off the board.

Well, thing was, I had to charge BW with my berserkers and I managed to explode it, next turn he charged my 4 remaining chosen and 8 berserkers. My guys managed to hold good for one turn, but next turn he took all 7 remaining zerkers. And all that was without his Warboss! My prince was battling Boss and gretchins at that time. FnP just gives too much survivability and combined with wound allocation tricks its hell :(

Well, I think that my goal should be make 4-5 chosen with meltas instead 3 with 2 flamers for suicide mission to blow up nob BW. Last game 3 meltas into side armor wasn`t enough :( One battle cannon shot on nobs in the open would do soften them up enough for CC.

There's also vindicators, they're alright at nobz.

I don`t own one, and I won`t, since I don`t like the model :/

Mr. Voidness wrote:I don`t own one, and I won`t, since I don`t like the model :/

They are awesome. Make it Possessed and you can't go wrong with it. If you don't like the model, you can do conversions with it.

Lol, chosen with lightning claws.

In my opinion, chosen are never good as an assualt unit. They're fine as a melta spam unit, but I hate spam, so I keep away from them entirely. I'd say LC Terminators with either MOK or MOS would be a good unit for meganobs. Land Raiders are nice if you can afford them.

Slaanesh lord with a daemon weapon? That would work, although a Nurgle Daemon prince with warptime can wreak havoc and take a huge amount of damage before it falls.

Have you considered Autocannon Havocs?

Darkhound, i'm not sure about defilers with four dccw. Like you said, it isn't very good except in this situation, and is easily countered if he just starts bringing a big choppa, which tears up dreads.

But otherwise, I think Ailaros is spot-on for advice. Samus has good ideas with autocannon havocs. Side shots arn't hard to get on battlewagons, and if you just make sure to throw multiple squads of berzerkers at the nobz unit, you should be golden, or at least better off then before.

Nurgle DP with warptime is not as effective now as it was.. I actually like Nurgle DP's with Rot, fluffy choice, fun to use.

Autocannons would be nice, exept they don't help me open battle wagons.. Obliterators are better choice IMO, but havocs has their use in larger games.

I usually run defiler with 4ccw (without heavy flamer), against this ork, I ran it without RAC.

Problem of nob squad is 4 power klaws, who hits my defiler with 12 attacks not on charge

So, as I see now, against Nob deathstar I should prepare my own little deathstar: LR with LC termies and Lord inside. In all comers list I would try to meet them with my 2 DP's and Khorn Berserkers squad, thou main objective would be to shoot BW down early and shoot right weapons into the squad.

Thanks for replies guys

Hmm, yeah autocannons don't help much against battle wagons. Although.... Lascannons might

Lascannon havocs are in my opinion way overpriced, but they're a fun unit to just pew pew at things with. After about T4, they run out of targets, and become just an annoyance unit.

loota boy wrote:Darkhound, i'm not sure about defilers with four dccw. Like you said, it isn't very good except in this situation, and is easily countered if he just starts bringing a big choppa, which tears up dreads.

But otherwise, I think Ailaros is spot-on for advice. Samus has good ideas with autocannon havocs. Side shots arn't hard to get on battlewagons, and if you just make sure to throw multiple squads of berzerkers at the nobz unit, you should be golden, or at least better off then before.

How does a big choppa tear up dreads?? Are you thinking about the Power Klaw? Nobs still need 5s to Pen with a Klaw and the boss should be dead before he can swing if in contact with a defiler.

As for all the suggestions with Lightning Claws, if going up against diversified Nobs then the LC termies will be lucky to remove a single model before they get stomped. They can possibly do some mop up work of a 5 Nob strong (or so) unit but you need to hit them with str 8 weapons first.

Nurgle Prince with Wings and Warp Time is good against Orks. You can charge straight at the central/force-field-bearing Battlewagon and rip it up in HtH. Warp Time gives you good odds of at least one 6 to hit. Regular Orks need 6s to wound him even on the charge, so he pretty much needs to dismount the Nobs to kill him, or try to ignore him, in which case he runs more or less rampant.

A greater daemon also has decent odds of popping a BW in HtH; he's got 6A on the charge.

Oblits and melta-spam Chosen are your other good options, and/or Havocs on a flank so you can get side shots.

Thanks Mannahnin, great idea about princes ! Thats exactly what I needed

tedurur wrote:

loota boy wrote:Darkhound, i'm not sure about defilers with four dccw. Like you said, it isn't very good except in this situation, and is easily countered if he just starts bringing a big choppa, which tears up dreads.

But otherwise, I think Ailaros is spot-on for advice. Samus has good ideas with autocannon havocs. Side shots arn't hard to get on battlewagons, and if you just make sure to throw multiple squads of berzerkers at the nobz unit, you should be golden, or at least better off then before.

How does a big choppa tear up dreads?? Are you thinking about the Power Klaw? Nobs still need 5s to Pen with a Klaw and the boss should be dead before he can swing if in contact with a defiler.

As for all the suggestions with Lightning Claws, if going up against diversified Nobs then the LC termies will be lucky to remove a single model before they get stomped. They can possibly do some mop up work of a 5 Nob strong (or so) unit but you need to hit them with str 8 weapons first.

Should have been more clear. I ment a big choppa with a warboss, not just any old nob. Warboss with a bigchoppa hits with 5 str 8 attacks on the charge at int 5, and it only costs 5 points. Str 10 powerklaws are fun, but the big choppa boss is often overlooked. It also makes me feel good inside to have an ork that gets to strike first for once. I find this outfit rips up most dreads before they can swing, or at least pile on enough stuns and shakens to lower his combat ability.

Yeah, a MoN DP would still be good against orks, but not against nobz. Those klaws still wound you on a 2+, and your invul save still isn't great. Against a boyz mob, you'd do pretty well, especially with rot, but against a battlewagon nobz army, not so much.

You mentioned that you had to take apart the battlewagons with berzerkers. What do your HS slots look like?

That game was only 1k points, but I have same problems in larger games too. At that game I had 2 obliterators and defiler.

At normal larger games (we play 1750 mostly) I take 2 x 2 obliterators and defiler.Also I either take termicide unit or, as I will from now on, chosen's with melta. For HQ I run 1 - 2 daemon princes. I take 3 squads of troops Regular/Plague/Khorne mixed in some manner, loaded with melta / plasma.

I wouldn't mind sacrificing prince just to blow up nobs BW and get 2 turns to shoot at them..

Mr. Voidness wrote:Hello,

So, my more experienced friend runs mechanized orks, usually the list includes 2 BW with burnaz + mek in one and 9 nobs and warboss in second. Even if I manage to blow nobs battle wagon early, they still are tough nut to crack. My berserkers are not very efficient against them and the only other dedicated CC unit I use are princes. Last game this deathstar killed my chosen + berserkers, moved on to obliterators and last 3 managed to kill defiler :( So, I got advice that I should bring power weapons and Slaanesh Lord with daemon weapon. Lord for insta killing and power weapons for FnP avoidance.

Warhammer rule no. 1- Shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones. You have a defiler. It has a battlecannon. Which ignores nobz armor, FNP, and Instant deaths them. !

Mr. Voidness wrote:Well, thing was, I had to charge BW with my berserkers and I managed to explode it, next turn he charged my 4 remaining chosen and 8 berserkers.

If you are in a situation where you have to assault a transport to blow it up, your usually in a bad spot. Because the next turn you are sitting there open to the unit whose transport you just blew, to rapid fire/charge/etc. You must shoot down the battlewagons.

Ailaros wrote:Elite heavy lists with AV14 transports are good at force concentration, which means they always have local superiority, which means they tend to win whichever particular battle they've chosen to fight. The best way to counter this with CSM is to practice good force concentration of your own.

Keep your units in such a way that they can support each other well, and some of these problems will begin to disappear.

CSM need force concentration to win. The smaller armies, everyone being very flexible in what they can do, very similar speeds through the 'dex means they do work really well rolling an army around as one big pack. This will also help against orks- instead of a thin black line holding back a green tide, have a big black sledgehammer to shatter it

Autocannons and missile launchers. MLs can also bust up trucks easy. Get them however you want. Chosen, oblits, or havocs. Also, I don't have one but I expect defilers would pulp them from across the table with a lot of hilarity. And yeah, had a MoN aspiring champion get chopped down by a klaw more than once. And just a heads up, warp time is now FAQ'd to be pretty crap.

I play Mech ork, so i have a general idea on how to beat it.

In all my games against chaos with mech ork i have tabled them, however i have noticed that some chaos units cab be a waste of points - Chosen, Obliterators, Terminators and Princes.
Obliterators if deployed right can be nasty, but against an army with tonnes of power fists and mobility you have to be careful.
Terminators can ruin orks day, but they can be avoided with mobility untill ork is in a position to gang up on them.
Princes have a weakness against mobs, so..yeah although i would probably use them against this list with wings as a countercharge unit.

Rock paper scissors if you want to tailor a list. Vindicators will be very scary to the battlewagons and truks since they will probably be bunched together for the obscure, or this will mess with his deployment and half of his vehicles will not have the obscure.
Also consider taking bloodletters..if they charge a boyz unit you will most likely run them down or make them take a bunch of fearless saves, and they would be more effective then zerks at killing the burnas. Bloodletters weakness is shooting and that means you don't have much to worry about in this type of list. Also it will nagate the meganobz armour and nobz FNP.

General tactics - Put your units in cover. The only units he has with assault grenades are the Warboss and meganobz. That could help since nobz would be charging with I4.Without an IC meganobz only have ld7, tankshock them with a spare rhino or in a moment of oppertunity and they have a just less then average chance at fleeing which you can then escort them away from the fight. S8 weapons against the nobz for instant death and denial of FNP and against side armour of BW/trukks.
You could try deny him his mobility advantage by castleing your units up, however this could loose you the game if you set up a nice multi-assault for him.

A mech ork list is very predictable so try to use it to your advantage but ultimately though, you stated that the ork player was more experianced. Good luck.

CSM don't get bloodletters. They only get summoned daemons.

How's this for obnoxious-take Slaanesh princes and some things to open tanks, then lash the Nobz AWAY instead of closer. Then concentrated fire at them with autocannon havocs, vindicators (if you change your mind on them), obliterators, stuff like that. Actually, noise marines would be good here-high volume of shots. And they can kill other Orc squads well too who are closer. The big thing is keep your princes out of combat to hold off his Nobz til you can whittle them down enough. Then charge in the berzerkers. This tactic would be good against all assault armies, not good against shooty armies. Remember, gotta pop the tanks for this to work, but your buddy will be frustrated when his Nobz can't ever see combat, and frustration leads to mistakes...

loota boy wrote:CSM don't get bloodletters. They only get summoned daemons.

Interesting, im not angry though because they were still tabled.

Still, get the charge on the orks with zerks, lash of submission to move nobz back would be a very nice combo with some obliterators. Timetowaste made some great points but its doubtfull you will be able to pop two or more battewagons within the first two turns.

Klawjaw wrote:

loota boy wrote:CSM don't get bloodletters. They only get summoned daemons.

Interesting, im not angry though because they were still tabled.

Still, get the charge on the orks with zerks, lash of submission to move nobz back would be a very nice combo with some obliterators. Timetowaste made some great points but its doubtfull you will be able to pop two or more battewagons within the first two turns.

If he only has one tank with Nobz, he really just needs to pop that. The other orks are a bit easier to deal with for chaos marines. Especially if forces are staggered and they end up charging something and getting counter-charged by 'zerkers. Lesser daemons summoned would make great pits to hold up the orks. Just thoughts. I don't have point costs on hand-my book is home. But I'd recommend 2 vindis, a squad of oblits, 2 Slaanesh princes, chaos marines or lesser daemons (not both), berzerkers and noise marines with sonic blasters/blastmaster. Give em icons and metal boxes and watch the fun begin. Combi-meltas on rhinos are a must-drive em forward as empty throw-aways I you must to help pop the wagons.

Thanks for insight guys That is helpful

About lash.. I rly don't want to use it in competitive gaming, only would take it in fluffly lists

As I understand it's an uphill match, but if I "catch" nobs somehow, other part of army doesn't seem so threatening

Lash is still one of the most competitive items in the chaos book. Taking it to tourneys is okay. Just don't use it as a crutch. Use it as an extention of your army. And if you found anything I said to be brilliant, then you'll love this part-I even use....wait for it...SPAWN in my army!! They work well in some situations-they bog down shooting oriented troops well-like a unit of broadsides or command units. High toughness is nice...Yes, my chaos forces are controversial. Most people disagree that I run spawn, noise marines and other 'weaker' units. But that book is all about synergy between units.

Word of advice, Time, pride comes before the fall. Your little record marker shows 7 games total. I don't think you've played enough to know if that synergy is even valuable.

A defiler. Putting strength eight large pie plates on orks is deadly. Just put him in a far corner.

DarkHound wrote:Word of advice, Time, pride comes before the fall. Your little record marker shows 7 games total. I don't think you've played enough to know if that synergy is even valuable.

That little record is only since I started keeping track. I've played a LOT more games than that. Going back in time and guessing just wasn't worth my time.

Oh, and there was no pride in my post. The spawn thing was said as a joke-or did the humorous way I posted it escape your eyes? But way to call me out like that. Appreciate it and it is possible to figure out synergy between units quickly when switching to new codexes if you have an understanding of the game already. And I've been playing warhammer for ten years now. Please don't assume that my record makes me a new player-it's just something I've finally started keeping track of.

timetowaste85 wrote:And if you found anything I said to be brilliant, then you'll love this part...

Ah yes, the picture of modesty.

A glowing recommendation of Spawn would confuse a player asking for advice. There is actually not a single scenario an equal points of CSM isn't better. No matter how you're using Spawn, a squad of CSM doing the exact same thing would do it better.