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I have very recently got back in to WH40K after a long, long break – 2nd edition was the last I played, god knows when, must be nearly 15 years ago. At that time I simply didn't have the cash to really build up much of an army, generally borrowing armies from my mate who worked at GW. It was largely the lack of money issue that saw me drift towards Blood Bowl... Well, that and the general awesomeness of Blood Bowl. This is also why I suspect games like Necromuna/Blood Bowl/Gorkamorka don't stick in the GW stores for so long.

Anyway, fast forward to now and after playing that bloody Space Marine PC game then discovering the Horus Hersey series of books, I got well and truly sacked back in, and $800 + (at a guess, too scared to actually tally it all up) later....... well, you all know how it goes.

It was not surprising in the least to see that the prices had risen sharply since I last played, but what WAS surprising was the amount of children in the GW stores I was in. After picking up a few things and checking the prices, my GF could not believe the numerous kids swarming through the entire store could actually afford to buy these products. She even said so to the store owner, which prompted a pretty funny conversation actually - I sorta feel for GW staff as you can see this is a touchy subject that they aren't comfortable with, and they have to toe the company line.

I have a lot of different 'hobbies' ranging over a pretty varied collection of interests, and the startup fees for GW blow them all out of the water. It amazes me that children can afford this as a hobby. $800+ and all I've got is half an army and enough paints for me to almost get by.

I'm not complaining about prices as I knew the prices going in. At this stage of my life I have the income to pickup a few (...or more) pieces each month and paint at my leisure, but man, if I were a parent and my kid asked me for $180 to go buy a game, and then a day later for another $150 to buy paint, I'd be thinking my kid had himself a drug addiction, or I'd grab him a PS3 and a handful of games and hope that the crazy passes.

I imagine GW are making a substantial amount of cash off their license to THQ and would still be drawing in a good deal of dosh each month from suckers like me and most of you, but are they doing themselves long-term damage by pricing themselves out of reach of the people who develop into the older geeks who actually can afford to bankroll their wargamming or painting addictions?

.

I'm not sure, I know as a new player myself, and playing IG (also known as "Money pit, the codex") and I had to get very creative to keep from breaking the bank. Buying models secondhand, buying battleforces (IG's one isn't that bad, saves you a good chunk of cash) as well as converting mini's from 3rd party manufacturers.

I'm lucky in that our FLGS doesn't care what brand you use, as long as its WYSIWYG and they look cool. I can't imagine what people are doing to get cash for buying new 100% GW to play in GW stores

I know exactly what you are talking about. I am currently 20 years old, and hold a part time job as well being a full time student: basically money doesn't come easy, and I'm forced to buy all of my warhammer second-hand through friends, craigslist, or ebay.

But it wasn't always that way: I got into warhammer when I was around 13 years old, and the way it worked (and still does) is that the parents provide money for these kids to go out and purchase models from GW or any other store. There are multiple reasons for this.

First, and this may seem a little extreme, if they spend time and money on a hobby, it will keep them out of trouble.

Second, parents don't nearly spend as much time with their children as they should, so they feel bad and give their kids money to sort of compensate for it.

And I just ran out of reasons. But when I was younger, my parents supported my hobby, and gave me money to buy it. From what I've seen, there is no shortage of young children interested in the hobby, because it just looks cool and that draws them in. And if you were a parent, would you rather have your children spending money buying, assembling, and painting miniatures or have them in an alley shooting up heroine? (again, rather extreme case)

raincity wrote:when I was a gws employee I was often shocked at how much parents would buy for their kids in our store, a lot of the time it wasn't even for anything special like a birthday.. But at the same time a lot of parents told me they were just happy to see their kids socializing and doing something outside of playing video games on their own.
There also were quite a few who when they discovered the price said it's too much. So I think things in australia at least will decline recruitment wise.

Yeah, Australia in particular is pretty awful - a quick check on amazon.com reveals that I can buy things at about half the price as I can locally in-store. So we get shafted just like with DVDs/video games/etc.

The social aspect is a good point though, and probably the best overall aspect of the hobby for young kids.


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zeke48 wrote:And I just ran out of reasons. But when I was younger, my parents supported my hobby, and gave me money to buy it.

Yah and that's probably the worst part of it. Kid with the richest parents wins. A cruel life lesson for kids.

Out of interest, what is the general consensus re: GW amongst the younger crowds at large I wonder. I know that when I was 13 or 14 and playing, it was considered very uncool and geeky, and was very much something that we all did incognito. Which is exactly how I'm approaching it at age 30 actually....

GW used to target the young male / late teen market, look at old White Dwarfs. But then they priced this group out and it's for kids with rich parents now. Buying GW as a student is pretty much a non-starter. At university you probably won't have the money to spend on their armies even if you work part time. That's pretty much why I stopped GW and have only picked up the occasional figure since. I wouldn't go back to army buying now even though we both have good full time jobs. GW stores are a crèche for kids with rich parents. That's why all their staff need CRB checks now.

They think of themselves as the Louis Viutton of the miniature industry.

Of course they keep their prices high, they want the stigma of being the best, even if their quality is falling.

Groundh0g wrote:I have very recently got back in to WH40K after a long, long break – 2nd edition was the last I played, god knows when, must be nearly 15 years ago. At that time I simply didn't have the cash to really build up much of an army, generally borrowing armies from my mate who worked at GW. It was largely the lack of money issue that saw me drift towards Blood Bowl... Well, that and the general awesomeness of Blood Bowl. This is also why I suspect games like Necromuna/Blood Bowl/Gorkamorka don't stick in the GW stores for so long.

Anyway, fast forward to now and after playing that bloody Space Marine PC game then discovering the Horus Hersey series of books, I got well and truly sacked back in, and $800 + (at a guess, too scared to actually tally it all up) later....... well, you all know how it goes.

It was not surprising in the least to see that the prices had risen sharply since I last played, but what WAS surprising was the amount of children in the GW stores I was in. After picking up a few things and checking the prices, my GF could not believe the numerous kids swarming through the entire store could actually afford to buy these products. She even said so to the store owner, which prompted a pretty funny conversation actually - I sorta feel for GW staff as you can see this is a touchy subject that they aren't comfortable with, and they have to toe the company line.

I have a lot of different 'hobbies' ranging over a pretty varied collection of interests, and the startup fees for GW blow them all out of the water. It amazes me that children can afford this as a hobby. $800+ and all I've got is half an army and enough paints for me to almost get by.

I'm not complaining about prices as I knew the prices going in. At this stage of my life I have the income to pickup a few (...or more) pieces each month and paint at my leisure, but man, if I were a parent and my kid asked me for $180 to go buy a game, and then a day later for another $150 to buy paint, I'd be thinking my kid had himself a drug addiction, or I'd grab him a PS3 and a handful of games and hope that the crazy passes.

I imagine GW are making a substantial amount of cash off their license to THQ and would still be drawing in a good deal of dosh each month from suckers like me and most of you, but are they doing themselves long-term damage by pricing themselves out of reach of the people who develop into the older geeks who actually can afford to bankroll their wargamming or painting addictions?

I'm sorry to say, but GW doesn't think that their games are for you (or for me for that matter).

GW has positioned itself to target the 12 - 15 year old market. At that age kids don't have a defined sense of money value and parents with disposable income will gladly shell out large amounts of money for their kids.

On the one hand it is allot of money, but equaly is it realy that expensive for allot of people compaird to other hobbys?

When a mid range PS3 bundle is pushing £250 and games are £40 dropping £100 on a battleforce, codex, tools and a paint set is not realy that much to allot of people, especaly as they will see it as a hobby that gets their kids out talking to people, doing maths and art rather than sat infront of a TV.

To some people it is allot of money. When I was young I played a little, but I coulden't afford very much, but if I had kids and they wanted to play I would be buying them stuff. I would have a rule the same as I do for myself, finish painting before buying something else, and not go crazy. It would sure as hell cost allot less than computor gaming, which I would not encourage.

I don't think it is that expensive a hobby, not compaird to some of the other thinks I do. A tank of fuel in my motorbike costs £15, never mind all the other costs. I can go through a tank on a quick evening rideout, 3-4 on a full day blast in summer.

Most hobbys can cost allot. It is expensive if your kid is one of the ones that wants everything NOW and then drops it after a few weeks, but if it is a hobby they have a real passion for then it's not that bad.

To be fair, being in Australia skews the experience for us. We pay more than double the price GW products. Hell, it's actually cheaper to buy the Forgeworld models and have them shipped from the UK than it is to buy at stores in Australia.

I only make a few small purchases from my local games store, and thats more of a donation than anything else as the owner is a personal friend and the store is the only place to game for 70kms in any direction. I would never buy from a GW retail store, and certainly not for any large purchase.

To be fair that's a result of fluctuating currencies and seems to be common to allot of products in Aus/NZ. :flames:

Back on topic, miniatures have always been rather expensive to those that cAnt really afford them ie children, the target audience of many products.

25 years ago it was 50p for a fantasy mini, a lead space marine was 60p or £1.50 for 3. At the time i sometimes got a pound a week, so I was lucky to be able to get anything. The rogue trader rule book was £15 and pretty much out of reach until my birthday! Seems pretty similar to some of the gripes you see nowadays.

I'm 35 now earn well and don't view GW products as particularly expensive of course after 25 years there not allot I need to get.

I dont think GW are THAT much more expensive are they?

I just started buying other models for the first time, and aside from Mantic, its like comparing Nike with Adidas.

PP is expensive, Scibor is expensive, GW is expensive.

Basically they know nerds will pay good money for their toys, so they charge accordingly. Makes sense to me.

mattyrm wrote: I dont think GW are THAT much more expensive are they?

I just started buying other models for the first time, and aside from Mantic, its like comparing Nike with Adidas.

PP is expensive, Scibor is expensive, GW is expensive.

Basically they know nerds will pay good money for their toys, so they charge accordingly. Makes sense to me.

Thats true. But there are other companies too. Mantic is fair pricing i think.

To a certain extent, GW call the tune and everyone follows - other companies keep their prices broadly in line with GW because they can see what the market will bear. It's similar to selling an item on Ebay and searching for it first to see what everyone else is selling theirs for before listing it - rather than price according to what you think, you price according to the market.

What makes an interesting comparison is not so much how GW compares to it's rivals in wargaming but rather how it compares to other companies within different facets of wargaming that GW has no direct analogue to. So for example, historical wargaming I think I am right in saying, is much, much cheaper than GW. This is partly because the market is smaller but also partly because GW do not compete in that arena. In some respects, wargaming as a whole has suffered due to GW prices because if they raise prices, may others will follow - it's basic market economy.

I think you give the GW marketing guys too little credit, I dont think they would be stupid enough to price out their core demographic.

This has allways been seen as an expensive hobby although I dont feel its really much more expensive than it was in the mid 90's

Alternatives to miniture wargaming such as video gaming are cheaper these days so perhaps is a factor.

Lepuke wrote:I think you give the GW marketing guys too little credit, I dont think they would be stupid enough to price out their core demographic.

This has allways been seen as an expensive hobby although I dont feel its really much more expensive than it was in the mid 90's

Alternatives to miniture wargaming such as video gaming are cheaper these days so perhaps is a factor.

You never know, they just gave away £5 million pounds in dividents because 'it was truly surplus cash and we didn't know where to spend it.'.

Really, can't think of anything to spend 5 million on? QC/QA for finecast ? But no 6% of that goes into Mr Kirbys retirement fund. I hope once he's gotten his Golden Handshake the shareholders sack Wells and the rest of the board.

GW will eventually become a plaything for the very rich, shortly before it suffers its inevitable crash and burn...

I once had a heated discussion with someone on this forum (who shall remain nameless) who claimed pricing was perfectly fair because the only people who should be allowed to play were the very rich - if you didn't fall into that bracket you clearly weren't working hard enough to deserve to have a hobby

The problem with this is that GW does not just lose custom (the last decades financial reports quite clearly show that GW's year-on-year sales volume is declining), it also loses advertising.

The best advert for wargaming is knowing someone who already games - after all I bet most if not all of the people here were introduced to the hobby by a friend/relative/colleague/etc. Fewer gamers means fewer people doing GW's advertising for them, which means fewer gamers, which me...you get the idea.

The only question is will GW realise this and if so when? They are comfortably the most expensive wargame out there (in terms of cost to play a standard game) as games with higher cost minis tend to need far fewer minis to play. They justify this by claiming to be a 'premium' brand, but their shoddy approach to rules writing, playtesting and balance issues, the lack of any coherent release strategy and the failcost debacle is showing this to be so much hot air.

Never mind, I'll still play with my mates but apart from the last 3 infantry I need for my Dark Eldar I'm sending my money in the direction of Mantic and Corvus Belli

Chimera_Calvin wrote:GW will eventually become a plaything for the very rich, shortly before it suffers its inevitable crash and burn...

It wont.

Were talking about miniature wargaming here, not fething Water Polo. All it means is that people will budget more, use ebay more, use wayland instead of GW shops.. proxy more, use other models a bit more, own one army instead of 7. Whatever.

I literally never spend more than about £200-300 a year on the hobby, and I only started collecting again after I left the military in 2009. After a few years Ive got literally gak loads of SM. At least 4000 points, your statement is ridiculous. I can understand your anger at GW's nasty price hikes, but lets keep ourselves in the realm of common sense eh?

Groundh0g wrote:$800+ and all I've got is half an army and enough paints for me to almost get by.

WTF? $800 for half an army?
(notices Australia flag)
I see.

Even so, $800 for only half an army seems high. Even one of the most expensive armies I can think of (Space Wolf Razorspam) shouldn't run more than $800, even in Australia. Are you playing Sisters of Battle perhaps?

mattyrm wrote:

Chimera_Calvin wrote:GW will eventually become a plaything for the very rich, shortly before it suffers its inevitable crash and burn...

It wont.

Were talking about miniature wargaming here, not fething Water Polo. All it means is that people will budget more, use ebay more, use wayland instead of GW shops.. proxy more, use other models a bit more, own one army instead of 7. Whatever.

I literally never spend more than about £200-300 a year on the hobby, and I only started collecting again after I left the military in 2009. After a few years Ive got literally gak loads of SM. At least 4000 points, your statement is ridiculous. I can understand your anger at GW's nasty price hikes, but lets keep ourselves in the realm of common sense eh?

You should try living down under and see what your can get for your £200, While i agree the chap you quoted was a totally over the top, i really do feel for fans of GW products that live in australia.
The prices GW charge in Australia really are horrendus, compared to the UK and the US, hell i even buy the stuff over here and mail it over for a few of my friends and even then, with the cost of recorded airmail factored in, they still make a massive saving.

if GW has a target market of 12-15 year olds, then im really pleased. When they lose interest / give up theres more models on the 2ndhand market for me to buy thanks GW!

Call me the devil's advocate but do we want young kids playing this hobby? I know some can be great but on the whole I tend to find the demographic irritating.

Plus it seems to me that kids simply represent a cash cow. Many (myself included), start the hobby, are too young to really understand it/paint our models well and quit either in frustration or out of boredom... many to never return again.

GW's policy is to hook kiddies in with an oblivious mother, flog off AoBR, a battleforce, a paintset, tools, etc. and expect to only see them a couple times more before they drop off from boredom. Short-sighted? Yes. Immoral? Yes. Profitable? Oh hell yes.

I think the mature gamer lends more to the hobby... and, well, licensing will get them in. I started again because of DoW 2. OP here started because of Space Marine: These are the means to get in the demographic that can actually afford the hobby, will stick around and hopefully lend to its overall health. We place too much stake in the young 'uns when we lament about how hard the hobby is for them: it just isn't for them. View them as an annoyance we all bare as part of GW's free daycare programme: they keep the company bankroll'd.

/rant


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Also with regard to price comparisons; take a look at Perry Miniatures: 28mm historical wargaming and a fraction of the price. I almost had a heart attack when I compared the cost of Napoleonic Line Infantry to, say, Guard.

^First, remember that there's a difference between the 'hobby' as a whole and the GW 'Hobby'.

As to 'young 'uns' joining the hobby - I'm 20. You're 18. Compared to the people who wargame and are in their 30's, 40's, and even 50's (the FoW guys at a nearby FLGS, for example, and who I plan to join in an upcoming escalation league), we're the kids. No amount of false self-perceived wisdom or knowledge (for all of us young 'uns!) will change that. The best thing us whippersnappers can do is keep our heads down until we're just as gnarled and callous as the rest of the ol' grognards. Then we can moan about the state of the hobby and how the children are ruining it.

But you're dead right when it comes to the GW Hobby and its target demographic. The goal is to lure in teenage boys with their own disposable income, or parents who'll spend the $300-$500 (or more!) to pick up an army. If they stay, then it's a bonus. If they leave, well, GW's already pocketed the money. And issued another dividend.

So whats with the unfair pricing in Australia anyway. What did some ausy steal Kirby's wife or something?

mattyrm wrote: I dont think GW are THAT much more expensive are they?

I just started buying other models for the first time, and aside from Mantic, its like comparing Nike with Adidas.

PP is expensive, Scibor is expensive, GW is expensive.

Basically they know nerds will pay good money for their toys, so they charge accordingly. Makes sense to me.

I dunno, I think to play GW stuff (the way they intend you to play) is far more expensive than any other game. Of the other 3 games I collect at the moment (Infinity, FoW, board games) I would say the price of those combined, and to play them in a standard way, is about the same amount as I spent on my last 40k army. I guess that's why there is a propensity of people on this forum to play either GW games or a bunch of other stuff, the expenditure on the former makes justifying any other kind of wargaming hobby difficult.

Eh, it's not actually all that bad. On a part time job when I was 14 through 16 managed to buy 2000 points of Uruk-Hai, 3000 points of Greenwing Dark Angels, 1000 points worth of Tau, 1500 points of Dwarves, 1000 points of Gobbos, 1000 points of Eldar, and 1500 points of Brettonians. In addition to that I bought two xbox's, about 30sih games, a new gaming computer and roughly 15 or so games for it as well.

It all really depends on what you spend your money on, I didn't do squat aside from play Warhammer/LotR and video games.

Emerett wrote:They think of themselves as the Louis Viutton of the miniature industry.
.

Irony being Louis Viutton is something of a Chav brand in the UK...

infinite_array wrote:^First, remember that there's a difference between the 'hobby' as a whole and the GW 'Hobby'.

As to 'young 'uns' joining the hobby - I'm 20. You're 18. Compared to the people who wargame and are in their 30's, 40's, and even 50's (the FoW guys at a nearby FLGS, for example, and who I plan to join in an upcoming escalation league), we're the kids. No amount of false self-perceived wisdom or knowledge (for all of us young 'uns!) will change that. The best thing us whippersnappers can do is keep our heads down until we're just as gnarled and callous as the rest of the ol' grognards. Then we can moan about the state of the hobby and how the children are ruining it.

But you're dead right when it comes to the GW Hobby and its target demographic. The goal is to lure in teenage boys with their own disposable income, or parents who'll spend the $300-$500 (or more!) to pick up an army. If they stay, then it's a bonus. If they leave, well, GW's already pocketed the money. And issued another dividend.

I'm 21 Where'd you get 18 from? I'm concerned that I've got out of date info somewhere...

We certainly are the kiddies, I didn't mean to imply that we're not the youthful end of the wargaming hobbyists: But we're not screaming kiddies either. I'd simply say that I'd advocate that we be the lower-end of any demographic. Though, perhaps there is some blatant self-interest in plain view there: Maybe when I hit 30 I'll insist *that* be the lower limit? Who knows - I'd say that at my University club we only have a couple of bad nuggets, though, so it seems that there's a much higher 'pleasure to play with' ratio than there is amongst the diaper-soiling generation.

But I take it your point is to imply that my words should be coming from a more cracked and weathered mouth eh? I've yet to gain the legitimacy of wisdom? :(


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As for other wargames: Infinity sure seems cheap, aye... but not exactly played on a wide scale.

FoW looks bloomin' expensive for what it is: And just as opportunistic for your wallet as GW. They use the 15mm scale 'cos it's rarer, imo, and thus the prices are artificially higher. That's why I (intend) to play Rapid Fire! at a 1:72 scale... Revell/Italeri are just so much cheaper.

If you play the game to try to keep up with the Joneses, it can be expensive.

Most of the dyed in the wool kool-aiders will tell you that Its worth it, and you are playing with the porche of wargames.... yadda yadda yadda....



BUT- It isn't as expensive as you really think it is. Secondhand markets are there for the taking, those so called "Kids" have short attention spans, and when they figure out that they are all not Mike McVey's, thier worlds come crashing down around them and Fee Bay fills up fast.

I play with second edition stuff, which people don't mind giving away, selling for small change, or even trading a whole collection for a box or two of the "New" stuff... ( which is exactly the same as the old, by the way.)

I have a RT army waiting on my desk that I was configuring into "New" army stats, and point levels, and found that I have twice as much as I needed for the purpose, at- half of the monitary amount, if at all, since I had the stuff from the very beginning.

Buy, Sell, Trade. GW doesn't need to be played with brand spanking new shiniers to be any more relevent.

Gorkamorka, and Necromunda work just as well with a squad of Guard Vs. A Few fire teams of Chaos, then it does by trying to overfill your cart.

Do this a couple of times, and you very quickly will have yourself an army. Few weeks, ( 1 month.) and you have room for a Tank Squadron. which can be made out of cardstock, scrap, and some tank parts. Or- secondhand, which then you strip down- ( Or paint from the awful grey stuff in the mail.)


So on one hand, YES.

The game is not for the weak willed, or tight budgeted.

But on the other hand, NO.

The game is easy to get into, if your smart, not sucked in with a bunch of B.S. and plan for what you want, set a budget and stick to it.

MY purchases were before GW went for your nuts, and were stockpiles within stockpiles. ( THATS why I have a couple of rooms worth of the stuff.)

I then use that to trade, or swap for the stuff that I'm looking for. ( THAT IS... when I'm looking for it.)

My interests revolve, anymore around Space Hulk, second edition, The Skirmish games, and other games when I don't need 2-500 guys out on the table, that are as easily picked up and thrown in a box as fast as I set them up for the opening move.


I don't buy GW from shops, anymore, so my wallet does the talking for me. Love you crazy kids and your Milf love that you throw away after a month, though....

Keep doing what your doing. You kids are making the game playable to the average gamer.

Thanks!

Grot 6 wrote:If you play the game to try to keep up with the Joneses, it can be expensive.

Most of the dyed in the wool kool-aiders will tell you that Its worth it, and you are playing with the porche of wargames.... yadda yadda yadda....



BUT- It isn't as expensive as you really think it is. Secondhand markets are there for the taking, those so called "Kids" have short attention spans, and when they figure out that they are all not Mike McVey's, thier worlds come crashing down around them and Fee Bay fills up fast.

I play with second edition stuff, which people don't mind giving away, selling for small change, or even trading a whole collection for a box or two of the "New" stuff... ( which is exactly the same as the old, by the way.)

I have a RT army waiting on my desk that I was configuring into "New" army stats, and point levels, and found that I have twice as much as I needed for the purpose, at- half of the monitary amount, if at all, since I had the stuff from the very beginning.

Buy, Sell, Trade. GW doesn't need to be played with brand spanking new shiniers to be any more relevent.

Gorkamorka, and Necromunda work just as well with a squad of Guard Vs. A Few fire teams of Chaos, then it does by trying to overfill your cart.

Do this a couple of times, and you very quickly will have yourself an army. Few weeks, ( 1 month.) and you have room for a Tank Squadron. which can be made out of cardstock, scrap, and some tank parts. Or- secondhand, which then you strip down- ( Or paint from the awful grey stuff in the mail.)


So on one hand, YES.

The game is not for the weak willed, or tight budgeted.

But on the other hand, NO.

The game is easy to get into, if your smart, not sucked in with a bunch of B.S. and plan for what you want, set a budget and stick to it.

MY purchases were before GW went for your nuts, and were stockpiles within stockpiles. ( THATS why I have a couple of rooms worth of the stuff.)

I then use that to trade, or swap for the stuff that I'm looking for. ( THAT IS... when I'm looking for it.)

My interests revolve, anymore around Space Hulk, second edition, The Skirmish games, and other games when I don't need 2-500 guys out on the table, that are as easily picked up and thrown in a box as fast as I set them up for the opening move.


I don't buy GW from shops, anymore, so my wallet does the talking for me. Love you crazy kids and your Milf love that you throw away after a month, though....

Keep doing what your doing. You kids are making the game playable to the average gamer.

Thanks!

(Warning, shameless self promotion):

I picked this 1/35 S35 Somua kit, up for £13 off of eBay BNIB kit... If I'd wanted to make it for Guard and not make it Orky, I'd have only needed to stick on a Battlecannon bit from a Leman Russ kit (found easily online) and my total price tag for this vehicle wouldn't have exceeded £15:


Guard armour doesn't need to be expensive