Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

That was the big reveal? No wonder I didn't see it.

My initial reaction is that A_F is rationalizing a mistake. He baited us all with supposed evidence, ignored or deflected requests that it be made explicit, and then after being point-blank asked by nearly every surviving player in the game says that he thought Orkeo's clearly comical uber-viking name was suspicious?

Seriously?

Olgaf Wolfaleruneaxefang. That sounded susipicious? Because "it seemed made up"?

I read and re-read A_F's last diatribe but for some reason my brain must have rejected that explanation as . . . um, utterly and completely ludicrous?

At this point, I don't know if A_F claiming to have special pro-town powers makes him more or less credible as a townie. I suppose the only solid answer is "neither." I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around whether it would be better for a townie to reveal that they have a power or for scum to lie about it at this point in the game.

With nowhere else to turn momentarily, I'm going to throw a vote at one of the silent types.

vote: Gathering Storm

I guess it is my time to defend myself. I've been quieter over the last few days because I've had a busy week and weekend- hockey match, suffering an injury and 3 essays to write.

Other than the weekend the main reason I have posted much is because Arctik_Firangi's "evidence" turned out to be not as amazing as I thought it would be so I have had much to go on voting wise.

I wont make a retaliation vote since their is no real evidence that suggests that you are scum.

Gah!

And so in good conscience I have no reason to vote for you.

unvote: Gathering Storm

Nice response time, however. And while we have you online, is there anything that you can add to the morass?

Let's try it again:

vote: Inquisitor_Symphonius

I'll add my two cents.

Orkeo's comments have not been as confusing to read as A_F's. I think that A_F is a wolf, but I'm just not sure of Orkeosaurus, something doesn't seem right about his wolf persona... not just the funny name but his comments in general... more of just a gut feeling.

I_S has been very quite recently and unless he has had some other commitments then it seems very suspicious. VikingScott seems to provide small snippets of information and he hasn't done anything to make himself a target for lynching. Paul has been more active and helpful recently, same as you really, which would suggest you are probably Town not Scum. Of course if this is all just a ruse and you (or paul) are Scum I have been pretty well fooled. I've no real opinions on the others.

Well last time it was during the summer holidays for me. Now I am at 6th form.

Vote Count 3.2 - "And so in good conscience I have no reason to vote for you. "

1 - Manchu (Arctik_Firangi )
0 - Lord of battles
2 - Arctik_Firangi ( VikingScott Lord of battles)
1 - Dastardly Dave (Orkeosaurus)
0 - Paul Atreides
0 - VikingScott
1 - Inquisitor_Syphonious (Manchu)
0 - Gathering Storm
1 - Orkeosaurus ( Gathering Storm)



Not Voting

Dastardly Dave
Inquisitor_Syphonious
Paul Atreides



With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch.

Deadline Countdown

Manchu wrote:Gah!

And so in good conscience I have no reason to vote for you.

unvote: Gathering Storm

Nice response time, however. And while we have you online, is there anything that you can add to the morass?

Let's try it again:

vote: Inquisitor_Symphonius

Well, i've had to retype this message a billion times, but whatever. ;p

I'll keep it sweet and short.

I've been reading, not really contributing.

Absolutely no leads... so let's see how this works out.

Vote: Arctik Firangi

It was either him or Manchu, and Manchu seems more pro-town, so... a gut feeling. (VikingScott knows how it worked out last time. )

Someone do something interesting...

I disclaimed having 'special evidence' long ago. If you're 'let down' then you made a big deal about nothing. Just like the matter of whether or not I was targetted on Night One, this matter has been sensationalised and is detracting from what our focus should have been throughout the day.
This post is presented in Point Format so that even Manchu can read it.

- Everyone seems to have thought I had 'special evidence', but I rescinded that statement on Day One.

- Yes, Manchu, I challenged Orkeo's name because it sounded made up and the name I was given was not - it was fluff based. I presumed that this was the case for everyone but once it was clear that no one else found it strange, I withdrew my accusation and simply promised to explain later since an explanation was demanded.

- It should now be perfectly clear why I did not expose it on Day One. Manchu, your argument to the contrary remains illogical in context with my explanation - in fact, your argument is basically, "oh I thought that was just silly and didn't want to talk about it". You are either ignoring or deflecting my points, and my vote remains with you. You have been wildly suggestive today, in contrast with previous phases where you have been perfectly safe and have had no reason to act irrationally.

- I feel that Manchu's manner is overly 'helpful'. He never fails to remind people of where he has 'assisted' them.

- He may claim to be bewildered by my playstyle, but that's his problem. Dismissing my claim with indifference and enshrouding it in confusion - immediately after making a big fuss about it - makes perfect sense. He can kill me in the night phase. He doesn't have to be concerned about me today, but he certainly stamped his foot on the point.

- Manchu has deflected a lot of points with indifference or calls for solid evidence (which cannot exist on a public scale). If he is lynched and turns out to be scum, his inconsistency will be a valuable reference for the later phases.

- Manchu's placement of votes throughout the game have been deliberate and confident. Scum know exactly who their friends are, and only need to vote against them temporarily, if at all. He is 'safely' voting for quiet players or 'justifiably' bandwagoning. He is being manipulative whilst playing it safe. In my opinion, it just reeks of scum.

Arctik_Firangi wrote: - Yes, Manchu, I challenged Orkeo's name because it sounded made up and the name I was given was not - it was fluff based. I presumed that this was the case for everyone but once it was clear that no one else found it strange, I withdrew my accusation and simply promised to explain later since an explanation was demanded.

If your claim about being a special character is true, then I can understand why you were hesitant to explain your accusation of Orkeo. But I don't buy your special character status being an explanation for your vote against Orkeo on day one, much less an explanation for your voting against him later on. It's idiotic that you thought the over-the-top name was a sign of him being scum and I can't see how you'd expect the rest of us to believe that. Like I said before, it seems to me that you're rationalizing a mistake with a lie.

You have been wildly suggestive today, in contrast with previous phases where you have been perfectly safe and have had no reason to act irrationally.

Could you explain how I have been "wildly suggestive" or how I have acted "irrationally"? I think this is true of you, as I explain at the end of this post.

- He may claim to be bewildered by my playstyle, but that's his problem. Dismissing my claim with indifference and enshrouding it in confusion - immediately after making a big fuss about it - makes perfect sense. He can kill me in the night phase. He doesn't have to be concerned about me today, but he certainly stamped his foot on the point.

This doesn't make any sense. If I was scum, why would I bother arguing with you. As you note, I would just kill you in the night phase for a much smoother game.

- Manchu has deflected a lot of points with indifference or calls for solid evidence (which cannot exist on a public scale). If he is lynched and turns out to be scum, his inconsistency will be a valuable reference for the later phases.

The exact same could be said about lynching you. Your statements draw no differences between us. There is no content here that can be assessed as persuasive or weak. It's just hot air.

- Manchu's placement of votes throughout the game have been deliberate and confident. Scum know exactly who their friends are, and only need to vote against them temporarily, if at all. He is 'safely' voting for quiet players or 'justifiably' bandwagoning. He is being manipulative whilst playing it safe. In my opinion, it just reeks of scum.

Again, this paragraph could just as easily describe you. Your accusations amount to nothing but insults. The only reason you're attacking me is because no one else is engaging your rants. Oh, wait--Orkeo did. And then you voted for him. As soon as I agreed with some of his points, you turned your vote on me. Your motives seem all but transparent. The only thing that is keeping me from voting for you is your claim to be a town special character, which we cannot afford to lose at this stage of the game. But why should I believe this claim when all your other arguments are so totally devoid of the "ring of truth"?

Three people are obviously not convinced (I'm sure A_F will be voting for them next if he can't pin a pile-up on me) but what do the rest of you think? Is it more or less likely that A_F is lying about being a pro-town special character?

I think that with the amount of time left unless the last three are scum and all jump on one person (Or something like that. I am not accussing them of being scum but I hope you see where I'm coming from) I think that the day will end on a no lynch. Which means that scum get a night kill.

I personally think that who got targeted on the night of day 1 is a useless area of discussion/thought as it doesn't really matter. The one thing that does matter is that no one was night kiled that night giving town a small advantage. Also Orkeo's name was during the opening bits oof the 1st day when most of us were saying space wolfy things.

Also why would Orkeo use the actual name he was given (If he was given one.) Because if he did and Thor drew it from a source a scum recognised then they have an easy target. (Not that I think Thor would draw the name from a common Space wolf source or indeed take it from anywhere.)


Final point: Inq_Syph, remind me, what bit are you referencing? When you allied with me on the final day of the last game when I fllipped a coin?

Manchu wrote:

- Manchu's placement of votes throughout the game have been deliberate and confident. Scum know exactly who their friends are, and only need to vote against them temporarily, if at all. He is 'safely' voting for quiet players or 'justifiably' bandwagoning. He is being manipulative whilst playing it safe. In my opinion, it just reeks of scum.

Again, this paragraph could just as easily describe you. Your accusations amount to nothing but insults. The only reason you're attacking me is because no one else is engaging your rants. Oh, wait--Orkeo did. And then you voted for him. As soon as I agreed with some of his points, you turned your vote on me. Your motives seem all but transparent. The only thing that is keeping me from voting for you is your claim to be a town special character, which we cannot afford to lose at this stage of the game. But why should I believe this claim when all your other arguments are so totally devoid of the "ring of truth"?

Three people are obviously not convinced (I'm sure A_F will be voting for them next if he can't pin a pile-up on me) but what do the rest of you think? Is it more or less likely that A_F is lying about being a pro-town special character?

I'm sure you'd like to suggest that the others voting for me do so because they are confident that I'm scum. You approach the question - which you previously didn't want to touch - not by asking 'do you believe?' - but rather by loading the question by asking if people think that I am lying.

I find the pettiness with which you disregard my arguments as 'insults' as amusing as they are irrelevant. Contrariness is not argument, and I am actually surprised by you - reinforcing my own statements. Of course my motives are not transparent - you do not create a bastion of logic in pointing out what has been said in different ways a hundred times before.

You point out that 'no-one else is engaging with my rants' because I mentioned it to you earlier. So far this has been between you and me. You're trying hard today to bring me down without appearing the least bit responsible, and I've merely pointed out just how obvious it is. I'm sure you'll jump on the bandwagon when it's 'sensible' and safe - but only if you have to. Why don't you and Orkeo jump on right now, since it means you're so likely to be scum and scum wouldn't be that obvious? Which explanation shall we believe?
I guess there's no evidence of anything but people who could possibly be lying. /sarcasm

If I had any fear of being lynched perhaps I would have a reason to 'fear' - but you can only invent such fears. Earlier you said I was 'sticking my neck out'. You can state on your own authority that 'we cannot afford to lose' a special character but we have lost three, and we have achieved nothing. My night ability is not the sort that is any more effective in later phases. I have no fear, and yours is obvious.

Orkeo didn't 'engage my rants' as you falsely claim - I certainly didn't accuse him of anything until the post in which I voted for him. I merely mentioned that his behaviour was different and interesting, and I found his actions later to be suspicious enough to challenge him on it. He didn't go bat-gak crazy but I am keeping up my reservations. I think this is sensible. Can you deny that? I've only said that I think you're more dangerous than he is, and the way you play is much more likely to harm town with your constant attempts to restrict and dictate the movements and speech of the others as you see fit.

My only real regret here is that you only reply after my 0200 - I need to sleep and you have all of my night to try to appeal to town. The ball is in your court, mate - have a great night!

edit: minor grammar

@A_F: The only thing I am afraid of is that you will be lynched and turn out to be town. I'm trying to build consensus because I see your hostile, darkhorse approach to be against town's interests. Whether this is intentional or just your misguided idea of a good strategy is a valid question that I cannot seem to answer.

So I am asking again whether people think A_F is lying. By all means, those who are already voting for him can weigh in on this question as well. (A_F says that I'm loading the question by not including you but would you really vote for him if you thought he was telling the truth about being a SW special character?)

Now I'm hostile, a darkhorse and I have three votes to my name. I will be night killed in any case so it is of minor consequence - the scum know I'm not one of them, and the only way this could backfire for them is if I'm actually a basic townie. It doesn't bother me if they have their doubts, but it does sort of undermine my explanation in claiming as much. Still, keep 'em on their toes!

Obviously I can't have evidence, but we're both being sensible in being motivated and keeping things moving. We're running out of time one way or the other. I still think that there is a good chance that you are scum, and it's better that we be rid of the suspect than just another townie. You seem to me to be overly cautious and it simply doesn't get us anywhere except slowly and surely into a late-day town lynch.

The alternative is to keep being cautious - I'll be dead, of course - and things will keep going the way they have unless we get lucky. What a plan.

It has been pointed out repeatedly that I'm the talkative one -you actually voted for me earlier merely because I wasn't. We're the main focus here, and for the first and final time, my glove is pretty firmly down.

If he was telling the truth we wouldn't vote for him end of. But we don't know if he's lying or not. And any scum watching in may not like the idea of what A_F has described so far (what little anyway. don't reveal) and choose to night kill him.

My current thoughts.

Hey all, sorry I've been inactive recently, I've been busy and in london as well. That of course can't excuse my former inactiveness. That was mainly because I had nothing to say - nothing was directed at me and I needed time to pick up the trains of thoughts coming from everyone.

Anyway, my thoughts atm:

I have to agree with A_F when he says there can be no evidence in the public. It isn't possible.

However, I will agree that A_F has been a bit odd, but that could well be his personality. I fear that even if he is town it is too late to switch the lynch to anyone else.

Manchu, you call for A_F to reveal his role. You also said that when two players argue, one of them (at least!) is usually scum. So, I propose that you both reveal your roles at 19:00 BST, without seeing the other's post. This is particularly essential for you A_F, as you will probably be lyched/nightkilled anyway, so providing the group with a plausable town role makes no difference.

If you reveal as well Manchu, it will provide a better case against A_F, given that if he is lynched and turns out to be scum, you will probably be lynched tomorrow.(if there is one) You will probably be nightkilled if he is scum . EDIT: This means if you have expressly said you have a town role and what it is, you will have a slightly better shield.

Dave, I don't think there's anything that the scum would like more than to find out my role as early as is possible during this day phase.

You're going to need to explain your plan a bit better because I don't quite understand. You're saying that if I'M SCUM, then MANCHU will get lynched tomorrow? What better shield will anyone have, exactly?

I'm going to bed (it's 3:45am) but if you could make yourself more clear in the meantime... well, like I said, I just don't follow you at the moment.

EDIT: We have just over two days remaining.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Dave, I don't think there's anything that the scum would like more than to find out my role as early as is possible during this day phase.

First of all, it is no longer early in the day by anyone's standards (at least in the game). Second of all, why would the scum benefit from discovering your role now? You're probably going to be lynched anyway, regardless of whether you are actually scum or not.

You're going to need to explain your plan a bit better because I don't quite understand. You're saying that if I'M SCUM, then MANCHU will get lynched tomorrow? What better shield will anyone have, exactly?

If you're scum, Manchu will probably be nightkilled. If you're town Manchu will probably be lynched. Neither of you have anything to lose from revealing your roles. This seemed pretty clearly written.

Clearly that's what you get if you stay up playing Mafia games (ok, so you may have had other things to do as well, but I couldn't resist)

Dastardly Dave wrote:So, I propose that you both reveal your roles at 19:00 BST, without seeing the other's post. This is particularly essential for you A_F, as you will probably be lyched/nightkilled anyway, so providing the group with a plausable town role makes no difference.

I'm not following. Taking your suggestion to its logical conclusion, it would be even more helpful if everyone revealed at an appointed time. But the inevitable result would be that there would be liars. How would revealing at the same time make lying any less possible?

I second Dave's proposal. We need the players with useful town rules to help lead the Townies more. I can't do much, all I am is a nameless Grey Hunter.

And as the La Pasionaria would say:

"It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees."

Manchu wrote:

Dastardly Dave wrote:So, I propose that you both reveal your roles at 19:00 BST, without seeing the other's post. This is particularly essential for you A_F, as you will probably be lyched/nightkilled anyway, so providing the group with a plausable town role makes no difference.

I'm not following. Taking your suggestion to its logical conclusion, it would be even more helpful if everyone revealed at an appointed time. But the inevitable result would be that there would be liars. How would revealing at the same time make lying any less possible?

Manchu has a point here. How can we be sure that everyone is telling the truth? It's also an interesting idea that I haven;t seen before.

Manchu wrote:

Dastardly Dave wrote:So, I propose that you both reveal your roles at 19:00 BST, without seeing the other's post. This is particularly essential for you A_F, as you will probably be lyched/nightkilled anyway, so providing the group with a plausable town role makes no difference.

I'm not following. Taking your suggestion to its logical conclusion, it would be even more helpful if everyone revealed at an appointed time. But the inevitable result would be that there would be liars. How would revealing at the same time make lying any less possible?

That's rather the point. There are, presumably, no duplicate roles, so if you both reveal the same role, we know at least one of you is lying. We can also go back and re-read your posts from the perspective of said role, providing us with insight into your actions and a better idea of whether you are town or not.

Dastardly Dave wrote:That's rather the point. There are, presumably, no duplicate roles, so if you both reveal the same role, we know at least one of you is lying. We can also go back and re-read your posts from the perspective of said role, providing us with insight into your actions and a better idea of whether you are town or not.

If A_F is telling the truth, then I know for a fact that we do not have duplicate roles and your test falls apart.

Also, I think it's unfair to pose me against A_F by saying that if A_F is lynched and is town then I must be scum. I haven't been calling for A_F's death. Rather the reverse! I have been defending myself against his accusations, however, as well as questioning the logic behind them.

It seems like you could be setting us both up: if you know that both of us will reveal as town upon death, then you don't care which dies--you'll be able to lynch the other one the next day. That's a variation on "last voter is definitely scum" argument.

Also they could claim to be Grey hunters with no power but Thor said this is a role heavy game so that wouldnt work.

I can guess what you're trying to do, Dave. Regardless of the result, Manchu will not be lynched unless I'm behind it - he's too good at getting out of it - I've seen it all before. I doubt that he will be night-killed because I think he is scum, and you don't address that possibility at all.

Gathering Storm wrote:"It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees."

I pretty much said that on Day One. Blaze of Glory.

(actually going to bed now, this movie just ended!)

Manchu wrote:@A_F: The only thing I am afraid of is that you will be lynched and turn out to be town. I'm trying to build consensus because I see your hostile, darkhorse approach to be against town's interests. Whether this is intentional or just your misguided idea of a good strategy is a valid question that I cannot seem to answer.

So I am asking again whether people think A_F is lying. By all means, those who are already voting for him can weigh in on this question as well. (A_F says that I'm loading the question by not including you but would you really vote for him if you thought he was telling the truth about being a SW special character?)

Well, as I see it, there are four possibilities.

#1 Arctic is lying, he is in fact scum.

#2 Arctic is lying, he is in fact just an ordinary townie

#3 Arctic is lying, he is in fact a powerful townie with the ability to take one lynch or nightkill before going down, and wishes to use this to soak up a scum nightkill that would otherwise fall on a squishier target.

#4 Arctic is telling the truth, ie, he is a townie with powers that can be used in the opening stages of the game.

Let's keep in mind what we already know. The doctor, fifty, is dead. There was no nightkill on night one, while he was still around (not a very profound observation, I admit ). I think most of us agree that fifty most likely(of all alternatives) protected Arctic.

Now I know I am retreading old ground but this is important because this would rule out alternative #1. He wouldn't have been protected if he was scum (protected from what?), and then somebody else would most likely (you can never be sure) Have been hit.

Keeping this in mind, do we really need to kill arctic? I can only speak for myself, but he is the one guy I am resonably sure of not to be scum, because of the above reason.

Hopefully I haven't confused you needlessly. If you want anything clarified, I will be able to do so next evening.

On an unrelated note, Where is Lord Of Battles? When was the last time he posted here?

@Paul Atreides: Lord of Battles last posted yesterday (20/09/10). The last post before that was another few days ago.

I can see your point on Arctik, I also don't think he is Scum. He seems far too pro-town to be Scum.

Paul Atreides wrote:I think most of us agree that fifty most likely(of all alternatives) protected Arctic.

Now I know I am retreading old ground but this is important because this would rule out alternative #1. He wouldn't have been protected if he was scum (protected from what?), and then somebody else would most likely (you can never be sure) Have been hit.

Keeping this in mind, do we really need to kill arctic? I can only speak for myself, but he is the one guy I am resonably sure of not to be scum, because of the above reason.

This is a very good argument. If anyone was shielded on night one, it's very likely that Fifty did the shielding considering he had the shielding power. So you think that Fifty shielding A_F means that A_F is innocent?

This relies on two key assumption:

(1) That Fifty knew A_F was town. But how could he have? His special power was shielding, not investigation.

-AND-

(2) That A_F was actually targeted on the first night.

Only scum could know this. And yet it's the basis of your whole argument for A_F's innocence.

A good argument, indeed. A little too good for the knowledge that would be available to a townie.

Actually, Atreides makes a good point in Arctik's favor.

I agree, if the underlying assupmtions are true. I just think that you'd have to be scum to be able to make those underlying assumptions with any degree of certainty.

Fifty wouldn't have to have known Arctik wasn't town, he only needed to have more of a reason to try and protect Arctik than anyone else.

We dom't know for sure that Arctik was targeted on Day 1. However, he seems the most likely candidate for a shield, as he seemed - to me anyways - the most obvious target. Arctik has also implied, if I recall correctly, that he knows for sure that he was targeted somehow; a role-ability probably. Which only makes me more curious as to what role Arctik has (or says to have), and what its power is.