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I feel like BA codex has alot of traps one can easily fall into while making a list. Then everything fall down in play if something doesn't go your way.

Accidental double post..

Martel732 wrote:
Melee alpha strikes are still hitting what your opponent wants you to. That's why they don't work very often. In my case, you'd be hitting my scouts. Okay... you killed my scouts extra dead.

Yeah, I've only gotten one game in with the new codex, but all of my list ideas have a 1st turn SHOOTING element that drops in (Drop pod of Sternguard, Jump pack Plasma Vets, Inceptors, etc) alongside my buffing characters (The Sanguinor, Sanguinary Ancient w/ relic banner (or Company Ancient), Jump pack Librarian) with the idea of damaging a flank so my 2nd turn can see the Sanguinary Guard or Death Company drop in and hit something that matters. Also, my buffing characters will be in better position to actually buff the melee unit without having to make a difficult charge.

I really haven't been giving too much thought to using Death Company at all, but last night I was making a Death Company centric list and realized that 15 JP DC, all of which wielding Power Swords, is 360pts of amazeballz. With the Red Thirst, power swords are great, and with that many attacks, you don't really need Thunder Hammers. I'm gonna force myself to playtest that a few times...

 Voidwraith wrote:


I really haven't been giving too much thought to using Death Company at all, but last night I was making a Death Company centric list and realized that 15 JP DC, all of which wielding Power Swords, is 360pts of amazeballz. With the Red Thirst, power swords are great, and with that many attacks, you don't really need Thunder Hammers. I'm gonna force myself to playtest that a few times...

Price wise it's the same but in term of loss of dps you better off hiding 2 TH than all having PS.

PandatheWarrior wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:


I really haven't been giving too much thought to using Death Company at all, but last night I was making a Death Company centric list and realized that 15 JP DC, all of which wielding Power Swords, is 360pts of amazeballz. With the Red Thirst, power swords are great, and with that many attacks, you don't really need Thunder Hammers. I'm gonna force myself to playtest that a few times...

Price wise it's the same but in term of loss of dps you better off hiding 2 TH than all having PS.

I started down that road as well, but like the idea of good damage production being spread out across the squad if I'd like to do something other than super-kill one model on the turn they charge. If I'd like to tie up 3 units AND do something other than hack at 2 of them with chainswords, I feel the cheap, yet efficient Power Sword option is the way to go.

Obviously, real life experience will tell me if that's BS or not...

I find THs on DC to be invaluable, so you can get crap like carnifexes out of your way. By THs, I mean a couple per 10/15 DCs.

It's very possible that I just need to find the points for 1 or 2 Thunderhammers for my squad of Death Company no matter what I plan to do with the rest. It's not as if I don't like Thunderhammers.

It just gives them invaluable versatility.

 Voidwraith wrote:
It's very possible that I just need to find the points for 1 or 2 Thunderhammers for my squad of Death Company no matter what I plan to do with the rest. It's not as if I don't like Thunderhammers.

While there is a bit of a random element to it, for 4 points less, you can go with a power fist that is 1d3 and a boltgun. This is the ultimate in flexibility. Shoot one thing and charge another.

I wouldn't give them all power weapons, just no need for it. Your going to take casualties whether it's from overwatch or after you wipe a squad and your just going to pay for some of those swords for nothing. Just leave half of them with base gear so when you take casualties, you pull those guys. Also I agree with Martel on this point, you should always toss in a TH or 2 to give them some versatility.

I typically run a pair of 10 man DC squads with 1 thunder hammer and 2 axes per squad. Works very well and can take on just about anything.

Martel732 wrote:
Shooting is never gimping yourself. Knocking out a couple key enemy units with lascannons is worth 3-4 melee units as you save yourself all those casualties.

I strongly disagree with this. I realize 40k, sadly, still gives shooting armies the edge but If your fighting a gunline army that has rules/abilities that gives their shooting the edge, your certainly gimping yourself by attempting to out shoot a dedicated shooting army when your rules/abilities benefit your units in CC. It's like in UFC when a grappler tries to box with a striker, it never ends well for the grappler. Fight to your strengths, not your opponents.

I think most people are missing the point being made about shooting. You don't make a 100% shooting list. You also don't make a 100% CC list. Both will get destroyed pretty handily. You make a list that has a nice combination of both.

First round CC alpha strikes with BA generally don't go over well because you can't really ensure multiple units getting into CC effectively with the units they want to. A heavy shooting round 1 presence will ensure a much more reliable turn 2 charge while not gimping yourself on effectiveness either way.

I'm seeing a huge problem where people in batreps are going almost all CC and getting slaughtered. The Red Thirst is nice but it's not a crutch to rely on. Even with shooty units like Hellblasters, it starts to lessen their weaknesses (CC). Inevitably, armies who aren't gunline specific will want to get into CC with shooty units to tie them up.

I'm pretty sure a BA army with a good mixed combination of shooting and CC heading down the board en masse would be a good strat. The BA codex won't win you grand tournaments more-than-likely, but it is more than capable of producing a winning formula if you don't hamstring yourself.

I think some BA shooty list could be extremly dangerous. They are more potent to squash blobs of tying units with +1 to wound and big brawler charachters. Add to this some strong stratagem to conduct strike onto your ennemy weak spots.

Roughly something like cpt/lt/priest/banner + 20 hellblaster blob+ scouts to screen. Squad of SG in backup. That's 1250 ish. 40 plasma shots+ screen+hard to shift.

Blood thirst add a real counter charge potential and make your charachters real killers.

PandatheWarrior wrote:
I think some BA shooty list could be extremly dangerous. They are more potent to squash blobs of tying units with +1 to wound and big brawler charachters. Add to this some strong stratagem to conduct strike onto your ennemy weak spots.

Roughly something like cpt/lt/priest/banner + 20 hellblaster blob+ scouts to screen. Squad of SG in backup. That's 1250 ish. 40 plasma shots+ screen+hard to shift.

Blood thirst add a real counter charge potential and make your charachters real killers.

I don't know if I'd invest that much into ranged specific units. They are good, yes, but I think it's relying too much on your Hellblasters to do a majority of your lifting. I like Hellblasters in BA but I think they are good in smaller groups. Then you can shift your points around into other units. Bolter Inceptors and Biker Scouts are money in this codex. A large weight of fire and good CC capabilities, albeit the Inceptors are more armor smashing for their melee and scouts are more chaff clearing. I could easily see dropping Inceptors in on someone, running bolters into a group of infantry and charging a tank or monster. They also work well to drop in a backline JUST in LOS of a rear support unit to blow them away then Wings of Fire and drop somewhere else on the opposite side of the enemy when the enemy shifts forces to react.

Volume of dice is so critical to BA with this edition and codex. They have the ability to throw out so many dice that you can math people to death. You still need units like Hellblasters or other AP reducing firepower, but you can scrap most units under weight of dice. Units that do shooting and CC well like the mentioned Scout Bikes and Inceptors are probably going to be some of the hidden gems I feel. They are a lot harder to manage since they are multi-tool units. A lot of it still goes into common sense playing and experience. I just watched another batrep where the BA player dropped some Vanguard down and charged into the enemy army by themselves. Then he seemed surprised that he was wiped next round. CC alpha strikes are so hard to pull off consistently that a delayed charge seems like the best route. Sure, you get those games where you obliterate the enemy turn 1, but I haven't seen it a consistent success.

I agree. Going pure or even more than 50% straight melee is an absolute trap.

I have only been using one big squad of guys with Jump Packs, and a few supporting characters, but a lot of the heavy lifting is done by my shooting elements. My Missile Devs, Twin-Last/CCW Dreads and Razorback tackle the big stuff for me.

My 6 Tac Squads are mainly Plasma shooters, but no slouches in melee after a couple turns of mid range shooting. Even my Rhinos end up a lot in melee as stalling tactics to allow me to take out big targets. Red Thirst is good, but most of my games are won by shooting. My Vanguard Vets (now Death Company) are mainly used to shred the opponents infantry and give them a distraction they can't ignore to keep the rest of my army safe. They are the best JP Libby & Mephiston delivery system I could ask for haha.

Stop thinking only mono BA. The Imperium has so much to offer. Why not cherry pick ? If you want to use plasma pick DA, they can reroll 1s when they didn't move, it's their chapter tactic. They have a stratagem which increases plasma damage by 1. Imagine 10 hellblasters not moving, overcharging, rerolling 1s without captain, 3 damage per wound. Use BA for melee. AM has the best tanks. Knight commander pask is insanely good, best tank in the imperium. Ratlings are the best snipers. Cheap psykers can help keeping them alive.

p5freak wrote:
Stop thinking only mono BA. The Imperium has so much to offer. Why not cherry pick ? If you want to use plasma pick DA, they can reroll 1s when they didn't move, it's their chapter tactic. They have a stratagem which increases plasma damage by 1. Imagine 10 hellblasters not moving, overcharging, rerolling 1s without captain, 3 damage per wound. Use BA for melee. AM has the best tanks. Knight commander pask is insanely good, best tank in the imperium. Ratlings are the best snipers. Cheap psykers can help keeping them alive.

Some people prefer building a single army from one codex, not imperial flavor of the month soup.

Just saying.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I agree. Going pure or even more than 50% straight melee is an absolute trap.

I have only been using one big squad of guys with Jump Packs, and a few supporting characters, but a lot of the heavy lifting is done by my shooting elements. My Missile Devs, Twin-Last/CCW Dreads and Razorback tackle the big stuff for me.

My 6 Tac Squads are mainly Plasma shooters, but no slouches in melee after a couple turns of mid range shooting. Even my Rhinos end up a lot in melee as stalling tactics to allow me to take out big targets. Red Thirst is good, but most of my games are won by shooting. My Vanguard Vets (now Death Company) are mainly used to shred the opponents infantry and give them a distraction they can't ignore to keep the rest of my army safe. They are the best JP Libby & Mephiston delivery system I could ask for haha.

I'd prefer a division of an army into 40% shooting vs. tanks/monsters, 40% handling infantry, and 20% special forces like infiltrators and objective sitters.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

p5freak wrote:
Stop thinking only mono BA. The Imperium has so much to offer. Why not cherry pick ? If you want to use plasma pick DA, they can reroll 1s when they didn't move, it's their chapter tactic. They have a stratagem which increases plasma damage by 1. Imagine 10 hellblasters not moving, overcharging, rerolling 1s without captain, 3 damage per wound. Use BA for melee. AM has the best tanks. Knight commander pask is insanely good, best tank in the imperium. Ratlings are the best snipers. Cheap psykers can help keeping them alive.

Some people prefer building a single army from one codex, not imperial flavor of the month soup.

Just saying.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Then some people are not playing tactically and will lose regularly. 40k has not been mono faction for multiple editions - adapt- or go back to the BA glory days of bygone editions but for 8th tactics BA is a great soup element but it is never optimised at shooting which the others are all telling you are needed.

U02dah4 wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

p5freak wrote:
Stop thinking only mono BA. The Imperium has so much to offer. Why not cherry pick ? If you want to use plasma pick DA, they can reroll 1s when they didn't move, it's their chapter tactic. They have a stratagem which increases plasma damage by 1. Imagine 10 hellblasters not moving, overcharging, rerolling 1s without captain, 3 damage per wound. Use BA for melee. AM has the best tanks. Knight commander pask is insanely good, best tank in the imperium. Ratlings are the best snipers. Cheap psykers can help keeping them alive.

Some people prefer building a single army from one codex, not imperial flavor of the month soup.

Just saying.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Then some people are not playing tactically and will lose regularly. 40k has not been mono faction for multiple editions - adapt- or go back to the BA glory days of bygone editions but for 8th tactics BA is a great soup element but it is never optimised at shooting which the others are all telling you are needed.

Hate to break it to you bud, but you're in the Blood Angels tactics thread, in case you didn't notice.

If you want to talk about Imperial Soup tactics and how Blood Angels fit ito it, then kindly go start an imperial soup tactics thread and discuss it there, please.

That way those of us who want to discuss Blood Angels tactics in the Blood Angels tactics thread can do so in peace without your superfluous additions that have nothing to do with the actual discussion; Tactics for Blood Angels.

K Thx.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Well, its legitimate to combine detachments from different SM chapters into a single army.
I think if this army contains BA detachments, it should be possible to discuss this in the thread here.

Its what BA look like now they are not an effective mono faction army.

This is a tactics thread placing artificial restrictions on yourself because you prefer mono lists is the opposite of good strategy. (Note mono lists aren't always bad tactically eg AM but in BA case they are)

It could just as easily be said go create a mono BA thread for narrative/fluff and leave the tactics thread for those who want to include BA in there comp armys

Yeh you can discuss soup in a super competitive environnement. But saying it's that or nothing make no sense since some of us play against orks or space wolves and would like to have balanced games.

But by no means we shouldn't discuss it.

Can scout bikers shoot their twin boltguns and the shotgun (within range ofc).. for 6 str4 shots? I know pistols are a pistols or any other weapon..

Also, soup & other detachments wise... how does it work. What is the limitation (as I have a similiar question about a Death Guard army using Choas Space Marine units).

So can I have a BA force (fielded within a detachment, right?) along with a IG/AM Scions or Ultramarines force? What allows me to do this or/and what would I be disallowed to do?

U02dah4 wrote:
Its what BA look like now they are not an effective mono faction army.

This is a tactics thread placing artificial restrictions on yourself because you prefer mono lists is the opposite of good strategy. (Note mono lists aren't always bad tactically eg AM but in BA case they are)

It could just as easily be said go create a mono BA thread for narrative/fluff and leave the tactics thread for those who want to include BA in there comp armys

I'm trying to figure out why you think BA are not effective as a mono build army. So effectiveness is essentially grand tournament winning effectiveness and only that? I'm sorry but this is absolutely terrible advice. BA are nowhere near the bottom of the power scale. They are not in such a bad place that they are not "effective" without souping. If you are looking to compete at the absolutely top tables in tournaments, there will only ever be a handful of builds that will squeak by as the best of the best. Otherwise, BA have more than enough tools to be competitive in their own rights. Otherwise 90% of the armies out there are "not effective".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:
Can scout bikers shoot their twin boltguns and the shotgun (within range ofc).. for 6 str4 shots? I know pistols are a pistols or any other weapon..

Also, soup & other detachments wise... how does it work. What is the limitation (as I have a similiar question about a Death Guard army using Choas Space Marine units).

So can I have a BA force (fielded within a detachment, right?) along with a IG/AM Scions or Ultramarines force? What allows me to do this or/and what would I be disallowed to do?

Yes, scouts can shoot all non-pistol weapons.

Limitations for detachments only require they share a common faction keyword to still be battle forged.

Yes you can have a BA force with IG as they both share the Imperium keyword. You would just need to keep them in separate detachments unless you don't care to lose the special abilities (i.e. Red Thirst).

Hoodwink wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Its what BA look like now they are not an effective mono faction army.

This is a tactics thread placing artificial restrictions on yourself because you prefer mono lists is the opposite of good strategy. (Note mono lists aren't always bad tactically eg AM but in BA case they are)

It could just as easily be said go create a mono BA thread for narrative/fluff and leave the tactics thread for those who want to include BA in there comp armys

I'm trying to figure out why you think BA are not effective as a mono build army. So effectiveness is essentially grand tournament winning effectiveness and only that? I'm sorry but this is absolutely terrible advice. BA are nowhere near the bottom of the power scale. They are not in such a bad place that they are not "effective" without souping. If you are looking to compete at the absolutely top tables in tournaments, there will only ever be a handful of builds that will squeak by as the best of the best. Otherwise, BA have more than enough tools to be competitive in their own rights. Otherwise 90% of the armies out there are "not effective".


Because as many people have already explained pure CC doesnt work as you get stuck in a screen then get shot to bits. So you want a mix of CC and shooting (exact proportions debateable). However when it comes to shooting BA are disadvantaged in comparison to armies that get a shooting bonus. Eg. Taking a 2nd detatchment of Salamanders Devastators would be better than takeing BA ones. So you have the same tools as others but they get a relevant buff and you dont.

In addition BA want multiple detatchments as they are very CP intensive to make thee CP work chances are you want more than one anyway

Razerous wrote:

So can I have a BA force (fielded within a detachment, right?) along with a IG/AM Scions or Ultramarines force? What allows me to do this or/and what would I be disallowed to do?

You can mix Admech with AM, BA, DA, whatever SM chapter there is. They all share the IMPERIUM keyword, they can be in one army. You can even mix them in one detachment, but you wont benefit from chapter tactics/regiment/forgeworld. Only if every detachment is pure you get to use their chapter tactics/regiment/forgeworld. You can have a batallion of AM, a vanguard detachment of BA and an outrider detachment of DA, for example. You will have access to all stratagems from all factions to use on your entire army, sounds nice, but in practice is useless, because BA stratagems cannot be used on DA, they require BA units. You will also get +5 CP.

Hoodwink wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Its what BA look like now they are not an effective mono faction army.

This is a tactics thread placing artificial restrictions on yourself because you prefer mono lists is the opposite of good strategy. (Note mono lists aren't always bad tactically eg AM but in BA case they are)

It could just as easily be said go create a mono BA thread for narrative/fluff and leave the tactics thread for those who want to include BA in there comp armys

I'm trying to figure out why you think BA are not effective as a mono build army. So effectiveness is essentially grand tournament winning effectiveness and only that? I'm sorry but this is absolutely terrible advice. BA are nowhere near the bottom of the power scale. They are not in such a bad place that they are not "effective" without souping. If you are looking to compete at the absolutely top tables in tournaments, there will only ever be a handful of builds that will squeak by as the best of the best. Otherwise, BA have more than enough tools to be competitive in their own rights. Otherwise 90% of the armies out there are "not effective".

The misuse of words like "effective" and "viable" in these threads irritates me a bit as well.

The single biggest thing ba get from souping is screening ability. I don't ba firepower is that much worse than any other chapter save imperial fists and bobby g.

You can bobby g yourself with lamenters.

p5freak wrote:

Razerous wrote:

So can I have a BA force (fielded within a detachment, right?) along with a IG/AM Scions or Ultramarines force? What allows me to do this or/and what would I be disallowed to do?

You can mix Admech with AM, BA, DA, whatever SM chapter there is. They all share the IMPERIUM keyword, they can be in one army. You can even mix them in one detachment, but you wont benefit from chapter tactics/regiment/forgeworld. Only if every detachment is pure you get to use their chapter tactics/regiment/forgeworld. You can have a batallion of AM, a vanguard detachment of BA and an outrider detachment of DA, for example. You will have access to all stratagems from all factions to use on your entire army, sounds nice, but in practice is useless, because BA stratagems cannot be used on DA, they require BA units. You will also get +5 CP.

It's not useless at all. There are quite a few stratagems that only affect certain units or types of units. For example: If I wanted to run an Angels army of Blood Angels and Dark Angels, I could run the smash-you-in-your-face units as Blood Angels and ranged powerhouses like Plasma Inceptors and Hellblasters as Dark Angels. The only stratagem I'd really care for on the Dark Angels side is most likely the added damage to the plasma weapons. The Dark Angel trait also blends perfectly with overcharging plasma without needing a Captain.

People realistically only rely on three or four stratagems for their army setup and list build. Just look at stratagems you like and build a list to cater to that. I don't care about things like Kill Shot or Line Breaker if I have no tanks. But if I do, practically every other stratagem is useless for those units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alanmckenzie wrote:

Hoodwink wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Its what BA look like now they are not an effective mono faction army.

This is a tactics thread placing artificial restrictions on yourself because you prefer mono lists is the opposite of good strategy. (Note mono lists aren't always bad tactically eg AM but in BA case they are)

It could just as easily be said go create a mono BA thread for narrative/fluff and leave the tactics thread for those who want to include BA in there comp armys

I'm trying to figure out why you think BA are not effective as a mono build army. So effectiveness is essentially grand tournament winning effectiveness and only that? I'm sorry but this is absolutely terrible advice. BA are nowhere near the bottom of the power scale. They are not in such a bad place that they are not "effective" without souping. If you are looking to compete at the absolutely top tables in tournaments, there will only ever be a handful of builds that will squeak by as the best of the best. Otherwise, BA have more than enough tools to be competitive in their own rights. Otherwise 90% of the armies out there are "not effective".

The misuse of words like "effective" and "viable" in these threads irritates me a bit as well.

Agreed. I never said BA were top tier and actually feel they are right around the middle, which is a great spot. Effectiveness does not equate to top tier. All of your middle of the road armies are all effective. They just aren't going to win tons of tournaments. That's how it's always been and always will be. It's the reality of competitive gaming with lots of different army choices. Overall, the balance is pretty good in 8th. BA are effective. You aren't going to auto win games based solely on the lists you build but you won't auto lose them that way either. A win feels earned. It's how it should be.