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as i imagine everyone has already done, the release of 6th probally brought up alot of issues for existing armies, and major changes to certain lists. in any case, this thread is NOT a whine/rant/hate thread for 6th. instead, suggestions for how existing popular lists, or even just your own can change and adapt to the new rules. if you need help with suggestions, post it and hopefully we can provide a flame/gripe/whine free discussion on adaptive army building, tatics and changes as a result of 6th.

(apologies to mods if this should be in tatics instead - please move if required)

anyway i will start:

DE venomspams. the major hurdles i noticed, was hull points potentially glancing venoms to quick death, where before a glance was almost a "free pass", the fact that damage results can affect passengers (foring only snap shots etc). that said, the changes to rapid fire, addition of overwatch and movement speeds make the list much speedier, and potentially alot shootier. the trick, i think is to protect the vehicles and keep them out of sight, or use them as screens. now, obviously this is only a suggestion, but im thinking a venomspam list can suceed by simply deploying the venoms empty. have the warriors/trueborn on foot, deployed in cover (or even a fortification like an aegis line or something). this allows your venoms to zip around and spray fire, while your warriors are now seperate targets, able to rapid fire with impunity, and for the most part not worry about incoming damage on their vehicles. the list still employs a ton of venoms, but by deploying seperatly you double units on field, and thus double your target saturation. granted, the infantry now face possible fire from other units... but thats a risk taken in general. (i would also suggest the inclusion of the razorwing over the ravager as fliers are now just awsome, and really have an edge over the ravager wich is easier to hit). so... i think venomspam armies have remained static in power level. vehicle nerfs make them a little more fragile, but infantry buffs and fliers add quite a bonus.

otherwise, i would like to see comments for stuff like longfangs, kanwalls, imotekh and or scarab farms, IG gunlines/leafblowers... or any other list.

DE WWP, cannot assault out of the portal, makes the list useless

Looks like we may see the end of the hydra flak tank spam list for guard. It has sky fire so can hit flyers easily using normal BS but doesn't have the Interceptor rule so can only snap fire anything else - just checked in the FAQ! So BS1 for every other ground based model!

well for WWP... why not switch out to half range fire units.and then your beefy assault guys. deploy the range fire team out of the portal first, and have them advance, with support from the assault based infantry. not sure, but i *think* bikes and hellions might actually be a touch better in 6th with the bonus to rapid fire, turbo boost and adding jink saves.

as for hydras, i havent seen them used too much here. however i think lemun russ spam is definitly going away, since they can now be glanced to death.

incidently... dark/bright lance weapons just got a TON better imho, since they now have a good chance of just removing the vehicle from hull points, and are cheap enough to be able to take alot of them. (wich is also why i like the voidraven now.. a pair of str 9 lance... tyvm!)

Meltavets are taking the biggest hit by far. Beyond the fact that they are far more redundant (you can kill a tank with 3 meltas outright anyway, but even if you don't 3 penetrating or glancing hits will kill most vehicles anyway), their transports have been nerfed and due to rapid fire changes plasma vets are much better against infantry due to getting a long range shot even if they do move.

Buttons wrote:Meltavets are taking the biggest hit by far. Beyond the fact that they are far more redundant (you can kill a tank with 3 meltas outright anyway, but even if you don't 3 penetrating or glancing hits will kill most vehicles anyway), their transports have been nerfed and due to rapid fire changes plasma vets are much better against infantry due to getting a long range shot even if they do move.

plasmavets + Vendetta.

Crisis suits got nerfed hard, as target locks no longer do anything... biggest nerf ever.
Also, psychic hoods are no longer as powerful (6" range, 5+ (regular)/4+(epistolary)) defy the witch... while space wolves still have their happy happy 4+ 24" range magic runic weapons.... dumb

BaronIveagh wrote:

Buttons wrote:Meltavets are taking the biggest hit by far. Beyond the fact that they are far more redundant (you can kill a tank with 3 meltas outright anyway, but even if you don't 3 penetrating or glancing hits will kill most vehicles anyway), their transports have been nerfed and due to rapid fire changes plasma vets are much better against infantry due to getting a long range shot even if they do move.

plasmavets + Vendetta.

Haven't gotten the book yet. Have there been changes to fire points? If not plasma vets in a chimera would be a rape machine, 3 str 7 shots at 24" if it moves, 6 str 7 shots at 12" if it moves or 24" if it doesn't in an AV 12 platform is terrifying to everything except AV 14.

Buttons wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Buttons wrote:Meltavets are taking the biggest hit by far. Beyond the fact that they are far more redundant (you can kill a tank with 3 meltas outright anyway, but even if you don't 3 penetrating or glancing hits will kill most vehicles anyway), their transports have been nerfed and due to rapid fire changes plasma vets are much better against infantry due to getting a long range shot even if they do move.

plasmavets + Vendetta.

Haven't gotten the book yet. Have there been changes to fire points? If not plasma vets in a chimera would be a rape machine, 3 str 7 shots at 24" if it moves, 6 str 7 shots at 12" if it moves or 24" if it doesn't in an AV 12 platform is terrifying to everything except AV 14.

Well, if they're shaken or stunned then the occupants can't fire.

But with hull points, they can still fire at full efficiency unless they are penetrated/destroyed.

Easier to take out, but more reliable until they are taken out.

StarHunter25 wrote:Crisis suits got nerfed hard, as target locks no longer do anything... biggest nerf ever.
Also, psychic hoods are no longer as powerful (6" range, 5+ (regular)/4+(epistolary)) defy the witch... while space wolves still have their happy happy 4+ 24" range magic runic weapons.... dumb

Yes and no. Yes we can't target multiple units because of the now Target Lock, but the A.S.S. can now move a full 6" and fire their Rail Cannons, and we only need 1 BSF per squad to negate the effects of Night Fighting. Fire Knifes Suits are more useful and effective now at taking down lightly Armored vehicles as every glance takes off a Hull point than Death Rains.

Kaldor wrote:

Buttons wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Buttons wrote:Meltavets are taking the biggest hit by far. Beyond the fact that they are far more redundant (you can kill a tank with 3 meltas outright anyway, but even if you don't 3 penetrating or glancing hits will kill most vehicles anyway), their transports have been nerfed and due to rapid fire changes plasma vets are much better against infantry due to getting a long range shot even if they do move.

plasmavets + Vendetta.

Haven't gotten the book yet. Have there been changes to fire points? If not plasma vets in a chimera would be a rape machine, 3 str 7 shots at 24" if it moves, 6 str 7 shots at 12" if it moves or 24" if it doesn't in an AV 12 platform is terrifying to everything except AV 14.

Well, if they're shaken or stunned then the occupants can't fire.

But with hull points, they can still fire at full efficiency unless they are penetrated/destroyed.

Easier to take out, but more reliable until they are taken out.

Sounds like Plasma vets are much better now. They may be expensive, but 3 str 6 and 3 str 7 shots on the move in an AV 12 platform is terrifying to everything. Plus you can now fire 6 str 7, 3 str 6, 3 str 5, 3 str 4, and 4 str 3 shots if it doesn't move and you add a heavy stubber. Gets even worse when your army includes 4-6 squads of plasma vets, possibly with storm troopers tossed in.

Kanwalls are obviously gone because there's no point. They just lost their 4+ save, which was the entire point for using the wall of Kans. Now they get a 5+ save, which you can give to footsloggers without the Kan. It's now a purposeless tactic.

I don't even know if anyone's going to use Killa Kans any more to be honest. The fact of the matter is I think GW was trying to make the unused or unusable stuff in the Codex seem more interesting, which means, hey, Killa Kans and Big Meks are overused, let's nerf the piss out of them. Nobody uses Nob bikers any more, so let's buff them. Everyone says Stormboyz suck, buff them. Everybody says MANz can't be used in the current meta, buff them. Ghaz is used all the time because he's a monster, nerf him, Snikrot, likewise.

And that's basically how it went down, bros.

Wierdboyz apparently will always suck, though.

Add to it a potentally much further jump back distance for crisis suits and that you only need to get 25% covered (from the firing squads perspective) they should live a little longer to get some shots out.

Draigowing got a major hit. Their prefered tactic was to load a Libby and Pallies in a Raven and zoom them on, and keep everything in reserve to avoid shooting. Now at least 50% must start onboard. Not only that but wound Allocation has gone down the drain and everyone has a save against their powers. I don't even know what has happened to their Force Weapons yet.

I think people need to get over the loss of the 4+ cover save. One of the worst things about 5th edition. I for one am very glad its gone.

I played orks back when everything was a 5+ and it required fortifications like bunkers to get anything better.

Kans still have a lot going for them. S10 AP2 BS3 grot zookas or big shootas, immune to S4 or worse guns (from the front) and a fairly cheep price tag.

I just don't understand why you would want a relentless assault unit with an assault shooting attack, no option for a transport, and no benefit from WAAAGH moves.

BS3 Assault 1 S8 for 50 points? Really? Since when is that good?

Jayden63 wrote:I think people need to get over the loss of the 4+ cover save. One of the worst things about 5th edition. I for one am very glad its gone.

I played orks back when everything was a 5+ and it required fortifications like bunkers to get anything better.

Kans still have a lot going for them. S10 AP2 BS3 grot zookas or big shootas, immune to S4 or worse guns (from the front) and a fairly cheep price tag.

Kans are still one of the few of my favorite ways to deal with mind shackle scarabs. Grotzookas are still amazing, just not as survivable I'd admit but then again I'm hoping a dakka jet or so will help alot to offset the changes. (I really found a bad time to get the kan wall complete, even just 6 buggies lol now they'll likely sit out for the jets)

Buttons wrote:Sounds like Plasma vets are much better now. They may be expensive, but 3 str 6 and 3 str 7 shots on the move in an AV 12 platform is terrifying to everything. Plus you can now fire 6 str 7, 3 str 6, 3 str 5, 3 str 4, and 4 str 3 shots if it doesn't move and you add a heavy stubber. Gets even worse when your army includes 4-6 squads of plasma vets, possibly with storm troopers tossed in.

Yep. Everyone is moaning that hull points make vehicles too fragile, but facing off against multiple Chimera mounted Veteran squads is going to be a nightmare. Gone are the days of just glancing them, and then ignoring them for the rest of the turn.

Honestly, I like this system much better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:Draigowing got a major hit. Their prefered tactic was to load a Libby and Pallies in a Raven and zoom them on, and keep everything in reserve to avoid shooting. Now at least 50% must start onboard. Not only that but wound Allocation has gone down the drain and everyone has a save against their powers. I don't even know what has happened to their Force Weapons yet.

Actually, Paladins are listed as infantry characters, meaning each of them get's a 4+ Look Out Sir roll which, if passed, allows them to place the wound on any model they choose within 6".

Wound allocation isn't the same, but it's still there. Better in some aspects, worse in others.

DarthSpader wrote:well for WWP... why not switch out to half range fire units.and then your beefy assault guys. deploy the range fire team out of the portal first, and have them advance, with support from the assault based infantry. not sure, but i *think* bikes and hellions might actually be a touch better in 6th with the bonus to rapid fire, turbo boost and adding jink saves.

as for hydras, i havent seen them used too much here. however i think lemun russ spam is definitly going away, since they can now be glanced to death.

incidently... dark/bright lance weapons just got a TON better imho, since they now have a good chance of just removing the vehicle from hull points, and are cheap enough to be able to take alot of them. (wich is also why i like the voidraven now.. a pair of str 9 lance... tyvm!)

Disintegrators are loads better now.

However, with the WWP list, the best way to have done it would have been 3 venoms with portal haems in, an allied autarch + a squad of something like storm guardians.
So the vast majority of the list would have come through the portals.

BUT - you can't put more than 50% of the army into reserve, you cannot assault out of reserve and Battle Brother Allies cannot use your portals.
So in the above force (My WWP army is.. was.. 20 units, of which 6 didn't go into reserve (the 3 venoms). Leaving 14 TO go into reserve.)
And of course each shooty unit you take is going to reduce your assaulty units, which will come out of the portal, and even with a bubblewrap of shooters, still can't do a thing for a turn, while they likely get shot, and their targets move away.

So instead of being a delivery mechanism for your fragile units to come out, take down a target THEN be left somewhere to get shot half to death, you just get the shot half to death part.

Frankly, I could have lived with the 50% reserves, I could have lived with the no allies through portals thing, either would have been fine to work around and a WWP list would still have been viable. But now I get to shelve I-don't-even-want-to-know how much time and monies worth of scratchbuilt webway portals and extra grotesques, because I already had enough grots to fill 3 raiders to start with.

Death company just got buffed and nerfed. Rage now gives you an extra +1A (on the charge IIRC), and doesn't make you run at anything (best news EVER). Feel no pain is down to a 5+. Also, furious charge only gives a bonus +1 to str, not to Initiative. With 10 of them, that's 50 str 5 attacks on the charge!

Frankly I'm stoked. Now they're not useless without jump packs (at 20 pts each)!!!

Oh and fearless no longer take wounds from losing a combat (not that the above unit has much chance of losing a combat, mwahahaha!).

Thank god i bought all those dkok wep upgrades looks like ill be ripping off all my melta and replacing them with plasma and adding a lc or ac wep team to each squad.
and im for sure going to be a bastard and take a librarian with null zone to really punish wraiths and the like.

Would it not be best now to stack venoms with wyches so that you can disembark charge as its open topped?

It may just be me, but I feel for a mere 75 points, a skyshield landing pad has some potential. No deep strike scatter or dangerous terrain tests may have an impact for DS heavy armies. Combined with the option for shielded.. (maybe?) Aegis line is good too, with cheap reserves manipulation available. Combined with CCS & advisors.. I feel like guard have been buffed in a few ways. More maneuverability, flyers, increased template damage, etc.

Space Wolves Rhino Rush potentially takes a hit. Preventing Rhinos/Razorbacks from moving on one glance can't happen any more, but they're also much easier to explode thanks to hull points. I'm thinking a Grey Hunters footslog list with a Plasma Gun and Wolf Guard Pack Leader in either Terminator or Runic Armour will come about.

I'm thinking Eldar will start using vibro cannons a lot more. 36", auto glance on vehicles, can take 3 in a squadron?

Jayden63 wrote:Add to it a potentally much further jump back distance for crisis suits and that you only need to get 25% covered (from the firing squads perspective) they should live a little longer to get some shots out.

Actually, with the new rapid-fire rules. Enemy small arms are able to move and keep up with the crisis suits if they are using 18-24" range weapons. This means that the suits no longer dance just outside of small arms range and naow have to deal with a torrent of fire that they used to not. All in all, I'd say that the Crisis teams stayed about the same as far as gain vs loss.

Stealthsuits did get a big buff but it then brings up the question,"How much S5 shooting do the Tau really need?" If they were troops it would be different but giving up a plas/missile slot just doesn't seem to be worth it. IMO, We will have to see how the meta shakes out to see if they are now really worth it.

Edit to add:

Bikes and Jump-Infantry lists are much better.

At first when i saw that power swords are just AP3 and dont have that rumored "parry" special rule, i felt nothing but the proverbial RAAAAGGGGEEEE of Khorne (especially since i just finished painting 60 g*d* bloodletters and a dozen blood crushers).

After sleeping on that however, i've come to terms with it. It looks like 6E actually goes some way to help balance a Chaos Daemons list. Overall, i think i've gained more then i lost.

I can now enter play a bit safer (1/6 chance of mishap causing a lost unit)
I can Vector Strike with by 'Thirsters and Princes
I can move much faster with several units
I can Smash vehicles with my MCs and take them out without having to purchase Unholy Strength

and....i cant see U'zuhl Skulltaker EVER loosing a Challenge....ever.

In the end, i think 6E will be a refreshing change-of-pace.

It's hit & miss for the Orks.

Snikrot Kommando's are useless now they cannot assault from Reserve and KFF vehicle saves are now 5+.

On the plus side Flash Gitz get to ignore cover, Bikes T5 vs Instant Death, Lootas can move & snap shot and Zogswort has been given a 2+ Poison.

Deadshot wrote:Draigowing got a major hit. Their prefered tactic was to load a Libby and Pallies in a Raven and zoom them on, and keep everything in reserve to avoid shooting. Now at least 50% must start onboard. Not only that but wound Allocation has gone down the drain and everyone has a save against their powers. I don't even know what has happened to their Force Weapons yet.

They're all AP3 now, except for Daemonhammers which is AP2. Expect a lot more GK Termie units to be equiped with Daemonhammers and a warding stave.

Kavish wrote:Death company just got buffed and nerfed. Rage now gives you an extra +1A (on the charge IIRC), and doesn't make you run at anything (best news EVER). Feel no pain is down to a 5+. Also, furious charge only gives a bonus +1 to str, not to Initiative. With 10 of them, that's 50 str 5 attacks on the charge!

Frankly I'm stoked. Now they're not useless without jump packs (at 20 pts each)!!!

Oh and fearless no longer take wounds from losing a combat (not that the above unit has much chance of losing a combat, mwahahaha!).

DC have Relentless right?

I'm more inclined now to take DC with Boltguns, fire while advancing and then tear apart almost anything in cc.

DC are now only lacking in one area - Special Weapons.

StoneRaizer wrote:Space Wolves Rhino Rush potentially takes a hit. Preventing Rhinos/Razorbacks from moving on one glance can't happen any more, but they're also much easier to explode thanks to hull points. I'm thinking a Grey Hunters footslog list with a Plasma Gun and Wolf Guard Pack Leader in either Terminator or Runic Armour will come about.

I'm thinking Eldar will start using vibro cannons a lot more. 36", auto glance on vehicles, can take 3 in a squadron?

You don't get more hits from using more Vibro Cannons. The shots get stronger, which is irrelevant for shooting against vehicles and plainly a waste of money against normal units.