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Well that's over year. I'm betting sooner than that for loyalists. Dg/ts can wait

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Is this thread about gw's financial situation, or the situation with the CSM codex?

@Daedalus: Help me out here. What, exactly, is "fun" and "interesting" about everyone's jump pack equipped Characters and lighting claw and combi-weapon equipped Aspiring Champions (and characters) suddenly becoming illegal?

We've got a legitimate beef here. Sign the petition folks:


https://wargamerdad.com/blog/chaos-space-marines-bring-back-the-jump-pack?fbclid=IwAR00X3uD_qAjwGnO5PUFgnnRxgfIwg0Iu_egYRGEQQeW8xUM89fPbACRqoQ

Those issues are a relatively minor encumbrance for me, because my champs will just become unit dorks. That isn't to say I don't feel for you, but I'm simply going to readjust my army. I signed the petition, because I think it's worthwhile, but I'm just highlighting why other people might not be perceiving this in the same fashion.

I'm NOT buying the book for other reasons.

Zachectomy wrote:
I know Rob (TheChirurgeon from Goonhammer, who wrote most of the multi-part review) personally and he's a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's toxicity than anything about the new Marine book. Chaos marines aren't perfect but jeez do you guys love to whine

I do find it surprising that people expect reviews to go "look at all these improved units and these boosted, flavourful legion traits and marks. This seems strong but not broken like Tyranids so most likely won't be cut to pieces in 6 weeks time... oh but since I can't have lightning claws on a Raptor Champion the codex is dead to me 0/10."

With that said I wouldn't be surprised if GW do go "okay, FAQ, you can buy a jump pack with a lord for 25~ points".

But if people think this is a genuinely weak codex I feel they are reading different stuff.

 alextroy wrote:
Not much of a bet. I'm sure all three will get the upgraded vehicle stats when GW publishes the next version of their respective Codexes. So probably Space Marines shortly after 10th Edition drops with Death Guard and Thousand Sons at some random point in the three years that follow.

It will make a great hype article - "updated marine vehicles - coming to your codex in the future!".

If I was a newbie to 40k or just knew very little about CSM prior to this book, I probably would think this is a pretty solid codex. For the most part its only through the lens of the past that it becomes disappointing, mainly in the loss of legacy options (very few of which I am actually bothered by). The only exception to that is the inconsistency with which things like accursed weapons and special/heavy limitations are being applied, but that doesn't really hamper the competitiveness/power level of the book, only the logic and arguably the verisimilitude of it.

On that basis, I get the generally positive reviews that the book is receiving it, because putting those quibbles aside - which from my experience very few people in the broader community actually care about, especially if they aren't already heavily invested mind body and soul into a faction both tabletop and lore-wise - its otherwise a pretty good codex, ESPECIALLY if you aren't familiar enough with the faction to know or care about what was lost (have to agree with the dude who said "who cares about mutilators anyway" - I certainly don't, never used them myself, never seen someone else use them, honestly forgot that they existed in the first place, etc. The loss of HQ options hurts more IMO).

Tyel wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
I know Rob (TheChirurgeon from Goonhammer, who wrote most of the multi-part review) personally and he's a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's toxicity than anything about the new Marine book. Chaos marines aren't perfect but jeez do you guys love to whine

I do find it surprising that people expect reviews to go "look at all these improved units and these boosted, flavourful legion traits and marks. This seems strong but not broken like Tyranids so most likely won't be cut to pieces in 6 weeks time... oh but since I can't have lightning claws on a Raptor Champion the codex is dead to me 0/10."

With that said I wouldn't be surprised if GW do go "okay, FAQ, you can buy a jump pack with a lord for 25~ points".

But if people think this is a genuinely weak codex I feel they are reading different stuff.

I think there is a pretty good line though between constant praise and valid criticism. You don't have to say the codex is 0/10, but there are multiple valid things to be critical of.

That being said, there is also a lot of good meat in the codex. The consolidated Legions with WLT/Strats/Relics is really nice, though I think they could have put a bit more effort into Red Corsairs and Creations of Bile.

Powerwise, It's not a weak codex and it's also not S-tier either. This is a good thing, and it seems to be more a long the lines of the previous Knight codexes. There are some very strong Datasheets (Abbadon, Possessed and MoP come to mind) but in general there seems to be nothing super oppressive right now. Though, who knows in a few weeks we could find something super broken.

I think some of the issue comes from how GW decides what to do with their IP.

Take for example Shroud Runners from the recent Eldar release. They're a very nice kit. The theme fits very well within Siam-hann, or within Alaitoc. The rules are good, the models are good looking.

But who was asking for that kit? Who ever said "We need Rangers on bikes?"

No one said that. People were asking for Plastic Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks and Striking Scorpions though. Those models are very hotly sought by Eldar players.

For some reason, GW decided to do something new, rather than do a second set of Aspect Warriors.

Another example that comes to mind is MK6 armor in Heresy.

It's great that it's in plastic. But who was asking for it to be upscaled? There was literally nothing wrong with the old scale, and now we have two marks of plastic armor out of scale with the third and most recent.

I do not personally believe that there is anyone at GW who's job it is to ensure continuity among model designs. From what I've heard discussed in various places of the web, is Sculptors make a thing, upper management decides if they like it and back it's production, rules team makes rules for it, fluff team writes it. The problem here is that the sculptors have basically no QC/QA person that they have to answer to. Which is why we have lots of primaris vehicles lacking the signature Heavy Bolters of the Space Marine legions, in favor of having lots of antiquated and frankly out of place looking stubbers everywhere.

Some people are upset with the guns for the new LoV dwarves. Some people are upset specifically with the rules, no jump pack lords as you're all discussing, where as three years ago we got a random named character jump lord legion locked and not really useable by other legions.

I guess what I'm saying is, there just doesn't seem to be a top-down decision maker at the company who ensures consistency in design. Thus there is a lot of flip-flopping.

 Sasori wrote:
Powerwise, It's not a weak codex and it's also not S-tier either. This is a good thing, and it seems to be more a long the lines of the previous Knight codexes. There are some very strong Datasheets (Abbadon, Possessed and MoP come to mind) but in general there seems to be nothing super oppressive right now. Though, who knows in a few weeks we could find something super broken.

I have a feeling Creations of Bile could be sleeper overpowered. Being able to fight on death just ends certain armies ability to efficiently trade.
But admittedly you won't have Harlequin speed across the whole army, so it may not be as oppressive.

Voss wrote:

Sonsoftherock wrote:
It will be interesting to compare how long it takes for Loyalists to get the upgraded Land Raiders/ vehicles compared to how long it took for the second wound to finally arrive.

My guess? Loyalists will see the upgraded vehicles before Death Guard and Thousand Sons.

Don’t get me wrong, I have firstborn Marine armies as well and would quite like their vehicles upgraded but it will definitely add to my Chaotic sense of injustice.

I'd say the more immediate question is 'how long until a Chaos Kratos datasheet?' I (kinda) get waiting until the new codex is released, but each day after is going to feel like a burn, since the loyalist datasheet went up before the Kratos was even released.

As a Thousand Sons and White Scars player I'm hoping that everything falls into line quickly. The Chaos codex isn't even out yet though so I'll be giving it a couple of weeks before I start emailing GW asking for some rules parity (I have already emailed them about both a "traitor" Kratos and the power level of the Kratos which is out of whack with its points).

I would love some updated spawn for Thousand Sons to go with updated tanks and a Kratos for all "traitors"!

One aspect of the CSM codex that I think is pretty annoying for any CSM players that want some cult troops is that you now have to buy several codexes to field them. I can understand a reluctance to duplicate data sheets and have them diverge, but as the panoply of power armoured astartes codexes all share so many data sheets that's a non-starter as a justification.

Zachectomy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving back to the reviews, I feel like most of them were positive for two reasons: the army got stronger, and the reviewers likely don't play CSM..

The main author of the Goonhammer review is a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's attitude than anything about the new Marine book. Yes, it sucks to lose options (accursed weapons, jump packs) but the book overall looks pretty good.

"If you don't like it that's on you".

Yes the codex is pretty well placed power level wise, and is stronger than the last one, and has some very good content (my personal favourite being that each subfaction essentially has a mini-supplement worth of content). As much as it is correct to praise what is good, criticising things that are bad is not to be shied away from - and just like with the Eldar Autarch fiasco GW has said they will do one thing, then immediately acted completely at odds to their stated position (mainly stating that range rotation will not affect rules, then immediately pressing delete on chaos units in the rotation). This coupled with the usual standards of quality control when it comes to applying common sense to what datasheet options units get (either apply no model no rules or don't, not some inconsistent blend of not quite either) is worth pointing and laughing at equally as much as I should give a thumbs up for otherwise decent content.

Tyel wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Powerwise, It's not a weak codex and it's also not S-tier either. This is a good thing, and it seems to be more a long the lines of the previous Knight codexes. There are some very strong Datasheets (Abbadon, Possessed and MoP come to mind) but in general there seems to be nothing super oppressive right now. Though, who knows in a few weeks we could find something super broken.

I have a feeling Creations of Bile could be sleeper overpowered. Being able to fight on death just ends certain armies ability to efficiently trade.
But admittedly you won't have Harlequin speed across the whole army, so it may not be as oppressive.

Getting fast melee stuff isn't hard, though.
Mark/icon bikers in particular are pretty crazy, just for having so much going for them. Raptors lost a lot of options, bikers (AFAIK) kept it all.
Even baseline legionaries get weirdly nasty, because unless every reviewer just failed to mention, Bile's goons have access to all Marks, which you're open to stacking bonuses that can't be taken away and aren't temporary.
Legion trait + mark of khorne + icon means S6, -2 AP chainswords out of the box.

They have some nice strats too (-1 to hit for a phase & advance and charge)

I feel like WE were handed a very short stick in this. Being expected to get the codex and the WD for a copy paste of the psychic awakening stuff (which has been re-released what, 4 times now?)on top of getting objectively the worst legion trait...again....and only a minor one hurts. I guess they're relegated to shelf duty until 10th or whenever their codex drops. Any one care to put down odds their trait remains unchanged in their codex?

Voss wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Powerwise, It's not a weak codex and it's also not S-tier either. This is a good thing, and it seems to be more a long the lines of the previous Knight codexes. There are some very strong Datasheets (Abbadon, Possessed and MoP come to mind) but in general there seems to be nothing super oppressive right now. Though, who knows in a few weeks we could find something super broken.

I have a feeling Creations of Bile could be sleeper overpowered. Being able to fight on death just ends certain armies ability to efficiently trade.
But admittedly you won't have Harlequin speed across the whole army, so it may not be as oppressive.

Getting fast melee stuff isn't hard, though.
Mark/icon bikers in particular are pretty crazy, just for having so much going for them. Raptors lost a lot of options, bikers (AFAIK) kept it all.
Even baseline legionaries get weirdly nasty, because unless every reviewer just failed to mention, Bile's goons have access to all Marks, which you're open to stacking bonuses that can't be taken away and aren't temporary.
Legion trait + mark of khorne + icon means S6, -2 AP chainswords out of the box.

They have some nice strats too (-1 to hit for a phase & advance and charge)

Or you can advance and charge all the time with Corsairs.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Voss wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Powerwise, It's not a weak codex and it's also not S-tier either. This is a good thing, and it seems to be more a long the lines of the previous Knight codexes. There are some very strong Datasheets (Abbadon, Possessed and MoP come to mind) but in general there seems to be nothing super oppressive right now. Though, who knows in a few weeks we could find something super broken.

I have a feeling Creations of Bile could be sleeper overpowered. Being able to fight on death just ends certain armies ability to efficiently trade.
But admittedly you won't have Harlequin speed across the whole army, so it may not be as oppressive.

Getting fast melee stuff isn't hard, though.
Mark/icon bikers in particular are pretty crazy, just for having so much going for them. Raptors lost a lot of options, bikers (AFAIK) kept it all.
Even baseline legionaries get weirdly nasty, because unless every reviewer just failed to mention, Bile's goons have access to all Marks, which you're open to stacking bonuses that can't be taken away and aren't temporary.
Legion trait + mark of khorne + icon means S6, -2 AP chainswords out of the box.

They have some nice strats too (-1 to hit for a phase & advance and charge)

Or you can advance and charge all the time with Corsairs.

Well, yeah... you could. But then you aren't getting +1 S & M and fight even if you're killed first, so...?
I'd rather have faster, stronger and fight no matter what 100% of the time (on faster units that don't often _need_ advance and charge) and pay for it situationally if/when it comes up.

I like advance and charge, and the objective thing is maybe nice, but the Creations trait just seems... better. It interacts and stacks with a lot.

Also I'm confused by how Rubric Marines ans Plague Marines interact with rules in this codex vs their own. Sooooo do they get the Mark benefits when ran in this codex in the elite section but not when ran as troops in their respective Legions? How about the Icon rules?

Sorry if I've already missed the answer to this but had there been word of when the new models will be released please?
Looking to get my talons on some Possessed 😀

 Insularum wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving back to the reviews, I feel like most of them were positive for two reasons: the army got stronger, and the reviewers likely don't play CSM..

The main author of the Goonhammer review is a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's attitude than anything about the new Marine book. Yes, it sucks to lose options (accursed weapons, jump packs) but the book overall looks pretty good.

"If you don't like it that's on you".

Yes the codex is pretty well placed power level wise, and is stronger than the last one, and has some very good content (my personal favourite being that each subfaction essentially has a mini-supplement worth of content). As much as it is correct to praise what is good, criticising things that are bad is not to be shied away from - and just like with the Eldar Autarch fiasco GW has said they will do one thing, then immediately acted completely at odds to their stated position (mainly stating that range rotation will not affect rules, then immediately pressing delete on chaos units in the rotation). This coupled with the usual standards of quality control when it comes to applying common sense to what datasheet options units get (either apply no model no rules or don't, not some inconsistent blend of not quite either) is worth pointing and laughing at equally as much as I should give a thumbs up for otherwise decent content.

More along the lines of "If you don't like it for the reasons people on this thread are perseverating on, you need a sense of perspective". To chaosOxomega's point, I agree that a person new to 40k coming to this book with fresh eyes would probably see the book for what it is, because they haven't internalized the entrenched negativity we're seeing on this thread. And of course, if we whine hard enough, maybe we'll get lord jump packs like the eldar got their autarch options. Maybe i can even convince my ork buddies to lobby for our biker meks and doks back

BrudeUK wrote:
Sorry if I've already missed the answer to this but had there been word of when the new models will be released please?
Looking to get my talons on some Possessed 😀

Best guess is delays. Either that or they just plum forgot.
It would be nice if they told us, though. They mention when sea monsters eat the Australian shipments...

BrudeUK wrote:
Sorry if I've already missed the answer to this but had there been word of when the new models will be released please?
Looking to get my talons on some Possessed 😀

No word yet, but likely at least 2-more weeks before previews go up, since the new paints are a 2-week pre order cycle.

I would hope after this...otherwise who knows.

Voss wrote:

BrudeUK wrote:
Sorry if I've already missed the answer to this but had there been word of when the new models will be released please?
Looking to get my talons on some Possessed 😀

Best guess is delays. Either that or they just plum forgot.
It would be nice if they told us, though. They mention when sea monsters eat the Australian shipments...

Well the very earliest they'll be on a shelf is 23rd July.

Zachectomy wrote:

 Insularum wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving back to the reviews, I feel like most of them were positive for two reasons: the army got stronger, and the reviewers likely don't play CSM..

The main author of the Goonhammer review is a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's attitude than anything about the new Marine book. Yes, it sucks to lose options (accursed weapons, jump packs) but the book overall looks pretty good.

"If you don't like it that's on you".

Yes the codex is pretty well placed power level wise, and is stronger than the last one, and has some very good content (my personal favourite being that each subfaction essentially has a mini-supplement worth of content). As much as it is correct to praise what is good, criticising things that are bad is not to be shied away from - and just like with the Eldar Autarch fiasco GW has said they will do one thing, then immediately acted completely at odds to their stated position (mainly stating that range rotation will not affect rules, then immediately pressing delete on chaos units in the rotation). This coupled with the usual standards of quality control when it comes to applying common sense to what datasheet options units get (either apply no model no rules or don't, not some inconsistent blend of not quite either) is worth pointing and laughing at equally as much as I should give a thumbs up for otherwise decent content.

More along the lines of "If you don't like it for the reasons people on this thread are perseverating on, you need a sense of perspective". To chaosOxomega's point, I agree that a person new to 40k coming to this book with fresh eyes would probably see the book for what it is, because they haven't internalized the entrenched negativity we're seeing on this thread. And of course, if we whine hard enough, maybe we'll get lord jump packs like the eldar got their autarch options. Maybe i can even convince my ork buddies to lobby for our biker meks and doks back

It would be nice but I would not necessarily hold my breath. The Eldar Autarch situation was egregious in that their very Codex cover was blatantly illegal as written and thus far more noticeable to even very casual players.

I run a discord server for a local warhammer group and one of the players there wanted to use the 30k stuff not only for 30k but also for 40k, but due to my griping they had doubts.

I did have to clarify that my complaints were coming from a place of being an older fan of the faction, being able to do certain things or seeing the faction in a certain light that GW seems intent on ignoring.

Yes, the book is a book. It's made of paper and has been colored with ink and some of that ink resembles words which could be interpreted as rules that are organized in pages. Just like every other 9th edition book, there are many stratagems and many faction rules. There looks to be some semblance of internal balance and external balance, while simultaneously being written with another ruleset in mind and without the current tournament pack in mind, likely because these were written at two different times. There are pros and cons to this.

My issues have and will continue to be NOT JUST with the book, but with how GW has been treating the faction as a whole. The stylistic and scale differences between the various 'waves' of models that we've gotten, going all the way back to Chaos Bikers and the Chaos Vehicle Upgrade Sprue from 3rd edition, to the 6th edition release of dinobots and raptors and chosen, to those being out-scaled by the 8th edition wave of new Chaos Marines, and now to the 9th edition release of Cultists (finally), while writing rules that take away options that we've had for years, or limit you to what is buildable out of an already very limited box, as well as issues of consistency when it comes to what unit can have what across the rules, making it MORE difficult to build the plastic toy hobby part of the army.

In order to get the faction where it needs to be, the following would have to happen to quell my rage:
>Update the Chaos Vehicle Upgrade Sprue (this would be minimum effort, since truthfully all of the Rhino-chassis vehicles and the Land Raider need to be updated to match the style of new Chaos models)
>Release a new Chaos Lord with options (ideally with jump pack/wings options, but I'm not counting on this)
>Release a new Exalted Champion with options
>Release Emperor's Children as they have done with DG and TS and will do with WE
>Add an extra sprue of weapons to Chaos Terminators and Chosen to allow more flexibility of build
>Update the Chaos Terminator Lord/Sorcerer
>Update the Chaos Spawn
>Update the Defiler
>Update Chaos Bikers
>Update Huron Blackheart

This is not a small ask, but it would be what would get Chaos Marines fully out of 3rd edition as a model range. A few extra things to satisfy my OCD would be to scale up the Chaos Raptors and Helbrute, as they were made during 6th edition before the scale-creep of Marines.

Notice how very few of these things have to do at all with rules. This is because rules are flexible and mutable. The rules that we need to change IMO are just these:
>Give Chaos Legionaries the ability to take 2 identical special weapons in a squad of 10
>Create consistency between Chosen and Terminator weapon options. I don't mind Accursed Weapons, but things like power fists ought to be the same across unit entries
>Create more consistency between Aspiring Champions of all kinds and allow people to convert across model kits. I won't necessarily miss Combi-weapons, but melee weapons should have more consistency
>Get your head out of your butt when it comes to Night Lords and leadership shenanigans. Give Night Lords literally anything else that doesn't rely on Leadership of the opposing faction

I keep seeing arguments going off the rails, but these to me are the major issues of the faction as a whole. Not just the book. We have massive style discrepancies across the model kits that GW still sells for Chaos Marines and it's going to take a BIG release to get things on track. The longer it takes, the older that those 3rd edition kits look, and then they have the gall to lump them in with price increases when those old molds have clearly paid for themselves a decade ago.

Few other factions have these sorts of issues. Coming to mind would be the Seraphon, Skaven, Soulblight Gravelords, Slaves to Darkness, Astra Militarum, and Eldar. We know StD are about to get a big update, Rumor Engines suggest Seraphon are getting an update soon, Astra Militarum are getting a big update, and Eldar just got a big one and need one more to wrap them up. The difference is that none of those armies struggle with a complete stylistic change between old models and new ones. A Cadian looks like a Cadian. A Striking Scorpion resembles a Howling Banshee in overall Eldar style. However a Chaos Biker is so departed from the newer Chaos Marines that it's painful to look at.

At the end of the day, shoddy rules and limited build options are just salt in the wound.

I'm generally all for calling out negativity, and certainly the normal Dakka trend towards that is evident here. But I think it is worth pointing out that even many of the most critical have also included comments that the Codex includes a lot of good elements that are being overshadowed; that's a subtle difference from normal language but it means a lot.

I also feel harsher criticism on certain changes is more justified because it costs GW little to nothing to avoid them. The real benefit in cutting so many of these options is that it is easier to balance as a result, which just makes it feel even worse for the 40k Devs essentially copping out on one of the game's weakest points rather than trying to do better.

Finally, when people have not just a unit or option but whole swathes of their army invalidated they are justified to be angry over that. I mean I genuinely like mutilators but I'm not upset by their removal; they were a niche unit no one ran as a core component of their army and direct-only finecast to boot. Plus existing mutilator models fit nicely into the new possessed units. People with squads of specific melee loadouts lost some nuance but all of the weapons are valid and viable with a shared profile. Those are VERY different to someone who had the ranged weapon options of the majority (or even all) of their infantry invalidated via new restrictions slapped on only a few years after the kits were released. It would be one thing if the new restrictions came with the new kits, the way it has played out makes it feel like a bait and switch (obviously not a sinister scheme by GW, but it evokes similar feelings).

Of course, part of the 'feels bad' when it comes to option removal is the fact that CSM are inherently a 'dark mirror' faction.

Losing options is going to always feel worse when the other guys get to keep the same things. And get things like Relic Terminators and Contemptors included in their codex. And get datasheets for new old stuff (Kratos) pre-release.

And that this is the culmination of years of waiting for catch-up in terms of rules mechanics. (Whereas, again, the loyalists largely got get-you-by pdfs for the subfactions that didn't get updated instantly). Here we know WE are coming, but the answer is go buy a WD.

Rubbing salt in the wounds is inherently going to grind people's gears. And GW knows very well that this kind of lack of support is often the crux of Chaos complaints. Yes, model budgets aren't unlimited. But the relic datasheets and lack of pdfs for existent kits (HH) or temporary support (WE) is just spiteful.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'm generally all for calling out negativity, and certainly the normal Dakka trend towards that is evident here. But I think it is worth pointing out that even many of the most critical have also included comments that the Codex includes a lot of good elements that are being overshadowed; that's a subtle difference from normal language but it means a lot.

I also feel harsher criticism on certain changes is more justified because it costs GW little to nothing to avoid them. The real benefit in cutting so many of these options is that it is easier to balance as a result, which just makes it feel even worse for the 40k Devs essentially copping out on one of the game's weakest points rather than trying to do better.

Finally, when people have not just a unit or option but whole swathes of their army invalidated they are justified to be angry over that. I mean I genuinely like mutilators but I'm not upset by their removal; they were a niche unit no one ran as a core component of their army and direct-only finecast to boot. Plus existing mutilator models fit nicely into the new possessed units. People with squads of specific melee loadouts lost some nuance but all of the weapons are valid and viable with a shared profile. Those are VERY different to someone who had the ranged weapon options of the majority (or even all) of their infantry invalidated via new restrictions slapped on only a few years after the kits were released. It would be one thing if the new restrictions came with the new kits, the way it has played out makes it feel like a bait and switch (obviously not a sinister scheme by GW, but it evokes similar feelings).

Yeah, I can agree with all of the points here.

It doesn't feel much like a bait and switch to me, since we've seen this happening for a long time now. When Plague Marines and the Blightlord Terminators got... 'plague marine'd', we knew this was the trend that GW was going to follow. Plague Marines that had just come out were suddenly limited to what was in the box, after many hobbyists bought extra kits to fill out their squads with the weapons that they wanted, either for thematic or competitive reasons.

Again, I blame the model designers for A. making a bunch of extra weapons that all HAD to have an individual profile and B. not adding enough of other weapons to fill out more interesting squads. If anything needed the 'accursed weapon' treatment, funny enough, it'd be Plague Marines and Blightlord Terminators, so people can build and play with what they want instead of taking 1 of this and 1 of that.

chaos0xomega wrote:
(have to agree with the dude who said "who cares about mutilators anyway" - I certainly don't, never used them myself, never seen someone else use them, honestly forgot that they existed in the first place, etc.

I loved Mutilators, personally. I used the Ushabti from Tomb Kings to fit into my very Tzeentch based army. It was fun if not very effective, but I won't really miss them overall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can someone clue me in on Night Lords?

Most vehicles are LD8, so would it be correct that Raptors would be +1 to wound on them basically all of the time?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
(have to agree with the dude who said "who cares about mutilators anyway" - I certainly don't, never used them myself, never seen someone else use them, honestly forgot that they existed in the first place, etc.

I loved Mutilators, personally. I used the Ushabti from Tomb Kings to fit into my very Tzeentch based army. It was fun if not very effective, but I won't really miss them overall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can someone clue me in on Night Lords?

Most vehicles are LD8, so would it be correct that Raptors would be +1 to wound on them basically all of the time?

Night Lords still have the -2 leadership and -1 Combat Attrition that the rumors suggested, but now the bonus only works on Leadership 5 and below, not 6 as the playtest suggested.

This means that to get their +1 to wound in melee, you have to not only have the Night Lords Trait, but then also another -1 leadership from another source. IIRC, Raptors, Daemon Princes, and Spawn at least have this, but the trouble is that they don't stack with each other, so the best you'll get is -3, and -4 if in range of the Noctilith Crown.

That means that anything with Leadership 9 and above is effectively immune to your +1 to wound unless you get the unit down to half strength, and if you can't get your positioning right, or if your opponent targets down the leadership debuff units, then you're simply not getting that bonus against most factions in the game.

My biggest gripe is as an EC player I lose a blast master from my 10 man unit for no reason. Ever since there have been noise marines people have been allowed 2 per 10 men now, all of a sudden, nope.

Also GW is going to need to Errata/FAQ doom sirens. As written you can take one in addition to all of your other weapons. I'm not sure if they mean to allow this (they haven't in the past) or if they just dropped the line about having to give up a weapon slot.

Then there's the question as to whether I need to pay for a mark on noise marines when they already have one. And whether I have to pay a 15 point tax on all of my units (even those that can't take marks)? Do the units that can't take marks get to use them anyway (since I need to buy marks for them)?

All of these questions for just a minor subsection of a book does not bode well for the book.

Tyel wrote:
I do find it surprising that people expect reviews to go "look at all these improved units and these boosted, flavourful legion traits and marks. This seems strong but not broken like Tyranids so most likely won't be cut to pieces in 6 weeks time... oh but since I can't have lightning claws on a Raptor Champion the codex is dead to me 0/10."

No one is expecting that. It's more that none of them are mentioning it at all.

Yea I think LD5 is appropriate. Almost every vehicle in the game is LD8 aside from titanics and Custodes it seems. LD6 would have been quite a lot of units. LRBTs are LD7 ( for now ).

Getting something in melee that can swing away when the LD is debuffed ... maybe it will be too fiddly, but it sounds like an interesting challenge.