Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Doesn't the rulebook state that only non vehicle troops can be scoring?

Uriels_Flame wrote:16 pages and still going.

Your point being?

There's new info about Guard, in a thread about Guard, so we're discussing the new info about Guard in the thread about Guard? Is there an issue with this I'm missing?

BYE

MinMax wrote:...this is, of course, tempered by the destruction of the Hellhound on an Immobilized result...

This isn't directed at you as much as the general tone of the forum, but I've seen lots of whining about the negatives of the "Squadron" rule with regards to the damage table and the ability for a single model to destroy the whole squad in HTH. But I've seen almost no comments about the fact that vehicles have to fire at the same target.

The targeting restrictions are probably a bigger deal than the damage table.

Nothing illustrates this like the Hellhound. Against a lot of targets, a single Hellhound hit will kill every model on a 2+. You really don't need multiple Hellhounds to accomplish this goal.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
The artillery... what can I say really. Seems the Bassie hasn't changed on iota other than to remove the step of having to buy Indirect Fire (anyone out there ever not buy that?).

I did regularly, back in 3rd/early 4th (i.e. the last times I played). I tended to play on REALLY small boards (4'x4'), and with the minimum range of the indirect fire, you'd only get 1-2 turns of shooting, and that's if you stuck it all the way in a corner opposite the juicy targets.

I'm trying to figure out how I'm gonna do my WW1 infantry/pie plate horde. I'm thinking lots of veterans and SWS, autocannons, flamers, that artillery advisor, and some sort of artillery squadron (or two). Most of the stuff I'm interested in is inexpensive pointswise....

Dave47 wrote:

MinMax wrote:...this is, of course, tempered by the destruction of the Hellhound on an Immobilized result...

This isn't directed at you as much as the general tone of the forum, but I've seen lots of whining about the negatives of the "Squadron" rule with regards to the damage table and the ability for a single model to destroy the whole squad in HTH. But I've seen almost no comments about the fact that vehicles have to fire at the same target.

The targeting restrictions are probably a bigger deal than the damage table.

Nothing illustrates this like the Hellhound. Against a lot of targets, a single Hellhound hit will kill every model on a 2+. You really don't need multiple Hellhounds to accomplish this goal.

True enough. Although, I think this is a much bigger problem with Leman Russes. I mean, if you're fighting MEQs, one Hellhound isn't gonna do a ton of damage.

Depends on what you're fighting, I guess.

Dave47 wrote:

MinMax wrote:...this is, of course, tempered by the destruction of the Hellhound on an Immobilized result...

This isn't directed at you as much as the general tone of the forum, but I've seen lots of whining about the negatives of the "Squadron" rule with regards to the damage table and the ability for a single model to destroy the whole squad in HTH. But I've seen almost no comments about the fact that vehicles have to fire at the same target.

The targeting restrictions are probably a bigger deal than the damage table.

Nothing illustrates this like the Hellhound. Against a lot of targets, a single Hellhound hit will kill every model on a 2+. You really don't need multiple Hellhounds to accomplish this goal.

I don't see it harming the hellhounds all that much. An Inferno canon does a lot of damage, but not enough to break a squad on its own. Two or more on the other hand will do so nicely and will hammer green tide armies. Do vehicles in squadrons block eachothers line of sight? Russ squadrons on the other hand are going to have to deal with this almost every turn. Hopefully there will be a note about squadrons of heavy vehicles like LRs excluding them from this.

page 64 vehicles in a squadron don't block line of site to each other.

ShumaGorath wrote:
I don't see it harming the hellhounds all that much. An Inferno canon does a lot of damage, but not enough to break a squad on its own.

That depends on the squad. Against Plague Marines? True. Against Dire Avengers, Fire Warriors, Banshees and Scouts? 1 is all you need.

Two or more on the other hand will do so nicely and will hammer green tide armies. Do vehicles in squadrons block eachothers line of sight? Russ squadrons on the other hand are going to have to deal with this almost every turn. Hopefully there will be a note about squadrons of heavy vehicles like LRs excluding them from this.

This is a very interesting point. It's going to be a pain for IG players to deal with (but one I'm willing to accept)

skkipper wrote:page 64 vehicles in a squadron don't block line of site to each other.

Expect tank wall armies to run this one all the way to the bank..

ShumaGorath wrote:

skkipper wrote:page 64 vehicles in a squadron don't block line of site to each other.

Expect tank wall armies to run this one all the way to the bank..

AND HOW!

You know, a lot of people are concerned about the price of Ogryns. I'm wondering - hoping, really - that maybe GW did the silly thing of letting them have different upgrades so as to mess with wound distribution. In that case, not only would they be worth 35 points. Seems to me that they might be a steal at 35 points.

ShumaGorath wrote:Expect tank wall armies to run this one all the way to the bank..

So all leman russ shoot at the same target too then, a waste of tanks.

For all this about squadrons, I cant see anyone using them without screwing themselves with no troops or playing 2500+ games. You might see pairs of MBT in tank heavy armies.

SSSHHH,(Whispering) Keep this on the down low. The Tank squadrons, New superlong range ordinance and the basilisk plus a few other things in this codex IS for Apoc.

All of you complaining about this or that belongs in apoc.. Which book do you use for your army in an apoc game? The Apoc rule book or your Codex? It's both. GW is finally introducing units designed to take advantage of the Apoc game.

IMHO, This Codex is going to be strong in both games.

@Shuma and Shep,
Good explanation of why chimeras why chimeras don't have side doors. Because theres not supposed to be enough room next to it for anyone to stand there.


Questions,

First) Price of vets and do they get infiltrate?

Second)Any clarification on the grav chute rule and whether it will affect when reserves can deepstrike?

Third)What are the rules on the special character thats the Tank General?

Fourth) Command Tank up-grade? Might this have a special ability for the squadron to split its fire?

Fifth) What are the special orders for the Storm troops?

Sixth) Could someone please answer those same Ogryn questions that have been being asked by the same people for months now on this thread and others? Getting tired of reading it.

Will ask other questions later. BTW Points sound about right for Tanks that can move and fire Main Gun and 3 lascannons.

I'm fairly excited to see the final codex on this. Overall, I'm seeing a slight improvement to IG overall in the "power scale", but nothing major.

It certainly appears IG armies in the future will be composed very differently than they are today. I'm curious to see how Chimeras end up being reviewed in the meta-game. Through a 10 point heavy stubber on there and you have the equivalent of a heavy bolter fire support squad for about the same price and AV 12 front.

IG's current AT magic bullet...deep striking vets with melta guns...is gone, with no real good replacement. The storm-trooper option with valkyries exists, but isn't nearly as cost effective. Melee is still out, and the AT tanks don't seem great, either, so is it back to massed lascannons in a gunline? The order to make those guns twin-linked will be very effective in this regard.

My Dark Eldar are happy to see the current rumors, though...a greater focus on armor spam is good for dark lance spam. Lots of troops in cover with heavy weapons are bad.

I'm curious how much the AV12 sentinels will cost. Spamming AV14 will be expensive, but a few AV14s and a bunch of AV12 platforms would be feasible. Looking at the current power builds, it could be pretty interesting. Dual lash focuses its AT in a few obliterators, orks mostly in power claws and lootas....mass fire at those, and then the army may have a bit a freedom.

It will also be interesting to see how these changes affect Demonhunter armies...they can take "Imperial Guard Platoons", and with all the options that are now part of that definition, it could be helpful.

The "TANK!" order seems pretty good. I haven't run any math but 75% to hit, and then str 10 vs vehicles seems like pretty good odds. Throw that on a 3x LC AT squad and they will seriously mess up anything less than AV 14 in cover. Unfortunately taking down those LRs is going to be a lot harder.

Just a heads up but the most recent rumor suggests that you can only combine the basic line squads. the 2-5 choice is the one that is said can combine so unless I missed something you won't be able to combine SWS or Heavy Squads. All in all I'm loving this. 19 points cheaper for my line squads after heavy & special weapons. I'm stoked! I can get 40 guardsmen w/4 ML and 4GL's and 4 Chimeras for 500pts. Thats a nice amount of firepower and a decent start to an army in my opinion.

Why would you bother with Missile Launchers when Autocannons are better and 5 points cheaper.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would you bother with Missile Launchers when Autocannons are better and 5 points cheaper.

BYE

I dunno about better, I think they both have their uses and I think are roughly equal weapons, but when the AC is 5pts cheaper, it becomes a no-brainer.

I foresee a lot of AC/GL guardsmen squads.

The Autocannon is better against AV10, 11 and 12. It is equal vs AV13. Obviously the Autocannon can't do anything to AV14, but given that for every 2 Missile Launchers you bring you can bring 1 AC and 1 LC, the LC covers the AV14 side of things.

And the Heavy Bolter is better vs Infantry than Frag Missiles...

I'll post this question again seperate.

Does the command Tank feature allow for the Squadron to split fire?

(New thought) Will it allow tank to benefit from some type of orders?

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Autocannon is better against AV10, 11 and 12. It is equal vs AV13.

Well, the ML can penetrate AV13, the AC can't, but I'd take the AC for killing AV10-12 vehicles any day of the week over a missile launcher.

And the Heavy Bolter is better vs Infantry than Frag Missiles...

Well, that also depends, massed frag missiles against a disembarking unit are very, very fun that said, against a slightly dispersed footslogging unit, the HB's are generally of course better.

But yeah, at a 5pt discount, the AC is the default choice methinks.

I'll post this question again seperate.

Does the command Tank feature allow for the Squadron to split fire?

(New thought) Will it allow tank to benefit from some type of orders?

Dunno if anything has been released on that yet, hopefully we will get word here soon

Do we know if HW squads are 10man or 6?


And do we know if Infantry Squads can take 2 SW?

Death By Monkeys wrote:You know, a lot of people are concerned about the price of Ogryns. I'm wondering - hoping, really - that maybe GW did the silly thing of letting them have different upgrades so as to mess with wound distribution. In that case, not only would they be worth 35 points. Seems to me that they might be a steal at 35 points.

I actually dropped the 50 odd bucks on three of these today, mostly for somthing different to paint as ogryn are crap, and really like the models. Looking at the models I can see where your idea is probably, and unfortunately, wrong. These are metal. Big, and metal. There has been no rumor about new plastic ogryn (although a five pack for $50usd would be nice even if they were still metal) and I doubt GW is going to make that no-no again. Frakking nobz-mobz...

the thought of 9 griffons with 9 FW heavy mortars pleases me...

I'm not sure why.

I'm looking forward to my overpriced plasma tanks. sure, 2 cost 460+ points but they will be fun to mess around with in friendly games, especially with camo netting. Even now I can hear my friends whimpering about broken spam b.s. when I annihalate entire squads of nobz and terminators with one tank at 36" while is clings to a 3+ save in shelled building. I can hear my brother whine about his plague marines going poof too and I think that's what makes me smile the most.

*edit, grammur

I was really looking forward to adding some fun units like psykers, mortars, commissars, advisors, etc.
My old army under the supposedly confirmed new rules costs more than 250 points more than it used to.

I know what you mean. I was hoping my army would decrease in price as well, but what once was a 2000pt army will now be almost a 2300pt army, mainly due to the increased price in ST's and plasma guns.

Same here, though mine might actually stay within a 10% margin of what it was. The Ogryn and Storm Trooper buffs eradicate any savings I might have gotten from infantry platoons.

And Commissars are still too expensive to take.

After seeing the Chimera price drop I thought my list would have a ton of extra points, ceterus parabus the Chimera change lopped 210pts off my army. Then the increased cost of ST's and weapons is double what the Chimera savings was, along with more expensive PG's, Hellhounds, and Russ tanks. Not that I have a problem with most of the Russ pricing, but the ST's are just gawd awful expensive now.

Vaktathi wrote:I know what you mean. I was hoping my army would decrease in price as well, but what once was a 2000pt army will now be almost a 2300pt army, mainly due to the increased price in ST's and plasma guns.

I don't even have storm troopers, just infantry and leman russes