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LordClammy wrote:

Commissars & Priests have different weapons and by my understanding can be picked out in combat.

they are not independent characters, so why would you be able to pick them out in CC ? you would just have to roll their saves seperately because of the different weapon load out.

If this is the case, I wonder what kind of upgrades you can give Ogryns - they could wind up being IG's Nob Bikers.

Alpharius wrote:And I am one of those fools that will try to make Stormtroopers work.

I have quite a few of them, of almost all model types...

As do I. Six full squads of Kasrkin. But I'm not going to pay 16 points each for them. They'll stay IST's, mounted in the Valks I've always wanted, until the day GW comes for my Daemonhunters Codex.

I think Ogryn are going to be pretty good in the new codex. With T 5, at least they're not going to be torn apart by Powerfists, and it's possible that Bone 'Eads and/or Nork Dedogg will let you have some Power Weapons/Fists.

I'm still holding out hope that the unit has Rending in CC.

Still, I'm just happy that a Tactical squad won't be able to kill half of the squad with Rapid-Fire.

So, once again it appears that Dakka's insistence on saying things that are remotely negative has once again gotten us in trouble.

I think we're all grateful for the rumours, and most of us are excited about the new book, but this is dakka, man. We're not afraid to call a spade a shovel. You tell us something like "Stormtroopers are 16pts a piece, but trust me, they're awesome"... we're all going to say "they had better have some amazing rules for that cost." It's not panic, it's just some valid discussion.

As for the Chimera thing, I thought about it and it's probably not a bad buy at 55pts, although Shep came perilously close to telling us all the "use tactics", which was amusing. I think that in practice the side armor 10 is a pretty big deal, but the front armor 12 is an equally big deal, so maybe it's a wash, I dunno.

H.B.M.C. wrote:As do I. Six full squads of Kasrkin. But I'm not going to pay 16 points each for them. They'll stay IST's, mounted in the Valks I've always wanted, until the day GW comes for my Daemonhunters Codex.

Ooh. Now that brings up an interesting question...In Codex: SM we get that Vulkan's power also works on things like Sisters with flamers and meltas...I wonder if allied ISTs (or other allied troops) will be able to reap the benefits of Orders.

As for the Chimera thing, I thought about it and it's probably not a bad buy at 55pts, although Shep came perilously close to telling us all the "use tactics", which was amusing. I think that in practice the side armor 10 is a pretty big deal, but the front armor 12 is an equally big deal, so maybe it's a wash, I dunno.

SA 12 in the hands of a good player isn't much of a detriment. FA 11 is never good anywhere, and no amount of good generalship can make those numbers better.

"Use tactics" is actually a valid counterpoint to side armor 10 woes. There are many ways to avoid a side armor hit. Especially with a tank that is taken in boatloads.

Drop troops rarely care about the 1 point difference in side armor when they are putting melta guns into you.

Hot off of Warseer:

Warseer wrote:Brought to my local hobby forum by “Glandalf Sama”, extracted from Terrasomnia, written by “Gorko” who have read the codex or have it now, you can consider this reliable:


Fast Attack:


- Fast Tanks Squadron:

- You may choose any of the following tanks in a 1-3 tank squadron.

Hellhound: 130 pts. Tank, fast. You can change the heavy bolter by a flamer for free or by a multi-melta by 15 pts. Extra armour 15 pts, searchlight 1 pts, heavy stubborn 10 pts, hunter-killer missile 10 pts, dozer blade 10 pts.
Banewolf: 130 pts. Tank, fast. You can change the heavy bolter by a flamer for free or by a multi-melta by 15 pts. Extra armour 15 pts, searchlight 1 pts, heavy stubborn 10 pts, hunter-killer missile 10 pts, dozer blade 10 pts.
Devil Dog: 120 pts. Tank, fast. You can change the heavy bolter by a flamer for free or by a multi-melta by 15 pts. Extra armour 15 pts, searchlight 1 pts, heavy stubborn 10 pts, hunter-killer missile 10 pts, dozer blade 10 pts.

The entire squadron can buy smoke launchers for 5 pts/mini or camo-netting for 20 pts/mini.

- Sentinel Squadron:

Scout Sentinel: 35 pts, open-topped, scouts, move through cover, multilaser. Auto-cannon 5 pts, heavy flamer 5 pts, missile launcher 10 pts, laser cannon 15 pts. Searchlight 1 pt, hunter-killer missile 10 pts, the entire squadron can buy smoke launcher for 5 pts/mini and/or camo-netting for 10 pts / mini.

- Valkirye: 100 pts.. Armour: 12-12-10

Skimmer, fast, scout, may deep strike
Equipment and weapons: extra armour, searchlight, 2 hellstrike missiles, multilaser
Options: change multilaser to laser-cannon +15 pts, change hellstrike missile for 2 multiple rockets pods for +30 pts, heavy bolters for +10 pts.
Can be bought in a 1-3 squadron.
Transport 12 models, they have the “grav chute insertion” (deep strike from the valk)


- Vendetta: 130 pts.. Armour: 12-12-10

Skimmer, fast, scout, may deep strike
Equipment and weapons: extra armour, searchlight, 3 twin-linked las-cannons
Options: change multilaser to laser-cannon +15 pts, change 2 las-cannon for 2 hellfury missiles for free, heavy bolters for +10 pts.
Can be bought in a 1-3 squadron.
Transport 12 models, they have the “grav chute insertion” (deep strike from the valk)

Heavy Support:


Lemas russ scuadron
Composition:vehicle scuadron composed of 1-3 leman russ or leman russ demolishers in any combination.

Leman Russ Battle Tank. 150 pts Hull Heavy Bolter. May change it for a lascannon for 15 pts, may have sponsons with: heavy bolters 20 pts, multi-melta 30 pts, plasma cannons 40 pts. LR may have Heavy stubborn for 10 pts, dozer blade 10 pts, h-k missile 10 pts, extra armour 15 pts. Entire squadron with camo-netting for 20 pts/model. One of the squadron tanks can be the squadron leader for 50 pts.

Same options for the next tanks:

Leman Russ Exterminator: 150 pts.
Leman Russ Vanquiser: 155 pts.
Leman Russ Eradicator: 160 pts.
Leman Russ Demolisher: 165 pts.
Leman Russ Punisher: 180 pts.
Leman Russ Executioner: 190 pts.

Artillery, 1-3 squadrons. Same options as the LR’s. Can be topped for 15 pts / model, the camo-netting cost 30 pts /model.

Basilisk: 125 pts.
Medusa: 135 pts. Can buy siege bombs for 5 pts.
Colossus: 140 pts.
Griffon: 75 pts.
Hydra: 75 pts. Camo-netting cost 20 pts for it.

Next can NOT be bought in a squadron.

Manticore: 160 pts.
Deathstrike: 160 pts.

Also - check Col. Gravis' blog here for more info: http://colgravis.blogspot.com/

@George - You may not have to ebay your army, now!

I'm dismayed to see a lack of track guards here. That and I'm interested to find out more about upgrading one squadron tank to be the Squadron Leader...

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote: I get all sorts of ads with scantily clad women who clearly look American but supposedly are all "in my area", listing a suburb waaaaay over the other side of the city. And they're all in that same remote suburb too!

hmm, i'm guessing (certainly not from personal experience, heavens no!) that those sites are not rated E for Everyone.

The punisher looks to be a little pricey. 75 point Hydras and griffins though...

Hellhound up to 130 points with a 12" range? Out of the list that one comes!

Commisar 35 points??

MinMax wrote:I think Ogryn are going to be pretty good in the new codex. With T 5, at least they're not going to be torn apart by Powerfists, and it's possible that Bone 'Eads and/or Nork Dedogg will let you have some Power Weapons/Fists.

Could Badvoc finally be getting some love?

Death By Monkeys wrote:I'm dismayed to see a lack of track guards here. That and I'm interested to find out more about upgrading one squadron tank to be the Squadron Leader...

Maybe, just maybe they're standard equipment.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:As do I. Six full squads of Kasrkin. But I'm not going to pay 16 points each for them. They'll stay IST's, mounted in the Valks I've always wanted, until the day GW comes for my Daemonhunters Codex.

Ooh. Now that brings up an interesting question...In Codex: SM we get that Vulkan's power also works on things like Sisters with flamers and meltas...I wonder if allied ISTs (or other allied troops) will be able to reap the benefits of Orders.

What orders could stormtroopers benefit all that much from. They don't have "lasguns" so the "Front Row! Back Row!" is probably out. Down! would be a waste because thats a turn of non-shooting. Move! Move! Move! will see only limited use with most players mounting them in transports to protect the gooey liquid cores. And Bring it Down! would be a waste cause all those S3 AP3 shots are going to bounce off every vehicle.

Hmmm, tanks seem a little point heavy imo (especially the hellhound).

Sentinels are still expensive :( I was really hoping for 25point sentinels. At 35points for a multilaser sentinel, you are just better off taking a Chimera imo.

I'm happy to see that you can merge squads in whatever way you want, and it's not "50 man blob or nothing".
I pretty much expected vets to be 10 man only. If they are their own troops choice does this mean they will not get to use orders? Or could the command squad still order them?
Does the "double shoot" order only apply to lasguns, or does it work on all rapid fire weapons? I've heard both floating around.
Commissars were rumored to be "almost half" as expensive as they used to be, so I would bet 25 points not 35. Has there been any new rumor otherwise?

Yeh got posted further up, but here it is again: http://colgravis.blogspot.com/

Demolishers and Hellhounds and Stormtroopers all got a lot more expensive - there goes my dreams of having my IG army largely based on them be competitive.

On the other hand, my 3000 point Guard army will be 5000 points in the new codex.



Vs. the Hellhound, the Valkyrie has better armour, skims, deep strikes, includes free Extra Armour, has similar power in weaponry, transports 12 models AND scouts for 30 less points.

Pushing the new kit much?

Dexy wrote:Yeh got posted further up, but here it is again: http://colgravis.blogspot.com/

Veterans can take Carapace armor... In other words: Grenadiers. Up to 6 squads I assume, since Veterans are rumored to be troops.

Nice.

If they really wanted to push the new Valkyrie kit, the first one would be free...

Pushing the new kit much?

Don't bring that into this... Please... I can only argue with so many people.

Demolishers and Hellhounds and Stormtroopers all got a lot more expensive

Demolishers aren't much different. Hellhounds a bit more pricey, it's all in how you look at the range vs fast vehicle tradeoff. Stormtroopers are much different though, you probably wouldn't want to to make an army out of a fast strike suicide squad anyway.

Medics now give the unit the Feel No Pain USR.

Medic on command squad, merge command with infantry/hvy squads. Fun.
If only there was a way to get a medic with the ogryns.

Hellhound: 130 pts.

Banewolf: 130 pts.

Devil Dog: 120 pts

Them's is expensive! I shall now call them the Nerfhound, Pointless Wolf and Redundant Dog.

Leman Russ Vanquiser: 155 pts.

155 points or 170 with Lascannon... and it can't fire regular shells.

Leman Russ Executioner: 190 pts.

And 230 with full weapon upgrades. Doesn't have AV14 all round and can't carry troops. And is BS3. Yeah... so not worth it.

I'm happy to see Sentinels come down, but not enough - they need to be 25 w/Multi-Laser - and it is interesting to see Grenade Launchers at 5 points, but there are other odd things.

Why are Missile Launchers 5 points more than Autocannons? We're now in a situation where 1 Autocannon + 1 Lascannon = 30 points and 2 Missile Launchers = 30 points. Having 1 Lascannon and 1 AC is better than 2 MLs by a long shot (AC's are better against AV10-12, equal against AV13, and the Lascannon handles AV14). It's like the old days where 1 Lascannon + 1 HB = 2 MLs, only better for those of us not taking ML's.

The Psychic Chior sounds like a cynical attempt to get us to buy more Sanctioned Psyker models. If they'd been worth a damn in the last Codex they wouldn't have to invent new units just to sell what people didn't buy last time around.

From a GW perspective the price increase on Russes makes sense (and in the case of the stock Russ it's not much of a price increase - 4 whole points to be exact) because the lumbering behemoth rules do allow Russes to actually use their weapons (like in all the artwork) rather than all the crew having to sit around and wait for Pfc. Johnson to fire the Battlecannon.

The others tanks though leave a lot to be desired. The Vanquisher is junk - even at BS4 (with Mr. Mandatory Special Character) - the Executioner is 1-dimensional and overpriced by miles, the Punisher is heavily overpriced for a gun that doesn't even deny Sv6+ models their save and the Eradicator is... well the Eradicator is the new Hellhound I 'spose given that the Nerfhound is (as we all predicted it would be) a compelte waste of time now. This is good in an odd way, as the Eradicator was one of the more redundant tanks in the Codex, but now that no one will bring the overpriced/underpowered Nerfhound, the Eradicator suddenly looks good!

The Camo Netting is interesting, giving tanks a 3+ save in cover. That ought to give Shummy fits. I know it gives me fits as I hate the way cover works in tanks in 5th... although that statement is redundant coming from me as I've hated all of GW's vehicle rules since 3rd. It also means that if you're stupid enough to take a Vanquisher and come up against a Camo-Netting tank horde at a Tourney, your Vanq is going to do even less (at BS3 87.5% of all your shots will do nothing against a tank with a 3+ save, and that's before rolling for penetration).

Valks are oddly overpriced assuming that their rockets are one-shot items. I think they are (can't say for sure), but I don't see them as being worth it. They do have decent armour though. The Vendetta is another needless vehicle (and why bring a Valk when a triple TL-Lascannon vehicle also carries 12 people?).

Does the Valk kit even come with 3 lots of TL-Lascannons? If it doesn't I'd say it was an afterthought GW put in after the kit had been designed. Bad form. Lame and unnecessary.

If the amorphus blob super-platoons are actually done on a unit by unit basis (ie. I join my three AC/Plas Squads together and my 2 LC/Plas squads together) rather than just mushing a whole platoon into a 55-man unit, then the system could work. Also allows you to use orders to cover more area. I kinda like that really because it's a choice, not an either/or (the either/or in this case being "Lose all KP missions" or "Have all your men in a single massive useless unit"). GW, I think, have actually managed to find a middle ground here, something they usually never do. I hope one of them wrote down how they did it so they can find the middle ground more often and give us less mighty pendulum swings (Tyranid Codex I'm looking at you...).

SWS with 3 Demo Charges? Ok, given that it can scatter 9" behind you, I'll say ok on that. Don't really fancy modelling up another 4 Demo-Charge Cadians. The two I've made are cool enough already. Plus I have 6 Cyclops vehicles... what do I need more SWS Demo Charges for? My only hope is that weapon prices remain consistent across the Codex, so a Vet pays the same for his Plasma Gun as a SWS trooper or a platoon trooper. I don't want to see any 10 point Flamers, 15 point Meltaguns and 20 point Plasma Guns in SWS. That would just be silly.

The artillery... what can I say really. Seems the Bassie hasn't changed on iota other than to remove the step of having to buy Indirect Fire (anyone out there ever not buy that?). I still think the Colossus is redundant, I still think the Death Strike has no place in non-Apoc games and I still think that the Hydra is ill-suited to 40K even with a price tag of 75 (isn't it 200 in FW's rules?). I hope to the Emperor that the Hydra's armament is '4 Hydra Autocannons' otherwise I'll be annoyed if all four of those guns equate to a single R72 S7 AP4 Heavy 2 gun. Even two Hydra Autocannons is kinda lame, unless they're twin-linked, which I doubt they are otherwise the summary sheet would have mentioned it (it mentioned it for the Exterminator!). Griffin, ok, nice to have it back. Hope it ignores cover otherwise it's redundant and the Colossus is back to being useful. No Manticores in squadrons - Go go Arbitrary Restrictions! And the Medusa... ok... it's a slightly longer ranged Demolisher with way less armour and it cannot fire indirectly. Why are we bothering? It's not so much redundant as it is just plain bad!

Going back to platoons. Command Section, 2-5 Squads, 0-5 HW squads, 0-3 SWS and Conscripts. Sheesh! Glad to see Remnants gone, but that's a big fething platoon. I'd much prefer Command Section, 2 Infantry Squads and then 0-3 of the following (and it's HW, SWS and Infantry Squads) + 0-1 Conscript Platoon. Commissars are 15 points more than they should be no matter how good they are. 35 points for a Commissar? Give me a break.

Veterans can get Carapace. Wow. Did anyone here use Veterans with Carapace? Oddly cheaper than Deep Striking Stormies with the Doctrine System but did anyone actually do it? No? Didn't think so. The only part people care about with Vets is A). Can they still get 3 Meltaguns for 30 points and B). Do they still have Infiltrate. That's all that matters.

HW Squads at 60 for Mortars... yeah Mortars are worth about 40, so this squad is 20 points more than it should be to start with.

I hope that the Heavy Sentinel's MM is included on the sprue, otherwise it's another Vendetta afterthought idea.

I wonder if RR's are back to being S3 I3, or if they have Furious Charge so they can be killed simultaneously by Marines rather than actually causing damage. RR's are a unit that worked at S5 I5 for a single round. If they're any less powerful than that, they're not worth taking.

And I'm glad that Officers are no longer IC's. That's a nice change. It's one of the mistakes from the Haines Era, so I'm glad to see it gone.

That's all for now...

Asmodai wrote:Vs. the Hellhound, the Valkyrie has better armour, skims, deep strikes, includes free Extra Armour, has similar power in weaponry, transports 12 models AND scouts for 30 less points.

Pushing the new kit much?

Shhh! Don't say that! Every time you insinuate that GW is attempting to use its rules to push new model kits, a Shummy gets its bile!!

Gestalt wrote:

Medics now give the unit the Feel No Pain USR.

Medic on command squad, merge command with infantry/hvy squads. Fun.

This has potential.

For terribleness.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Veterans can get Carapace. Wow. Did anyone here use Veterans with Carapace? Oddly cheaper than Deep Striking Stormies with the Doctrine System but did anyone actually do it? No?

I did. It seems carapace on my command platoon is dead though. :(

And 230 with full weapon upgrades. Doesn't have AV14 all round and can't carry troops. And is BS3. Yeah... so not worth it.

230 with the guns is a bit high, 250 with camo netting. It probably should have been ~215 with the five canons. It would be perfect at that point. I think you seriously underestimate the amount of damage output a 14/13/11 tank with 5 plasma canons can do before it gets shot to death by every gun in the opponants army. Killing an entire space marine squad in one shot or on average rolls nearly an entire termy squad is something that shouldn't be possible from a single unit. Even the demolisher can't pull that off when up close.

It will pay for itself in two rounds of shooting if you pick good targets. It will kill a hive tyrant and guards in one good round. There's nothing it really wouldn't kill in one round of shooting. It's even pretty fantastic against hordes.

I'm happy to see Sentinels come down, but not enough - they need to be 25 w/Multi-Laser - and it is interesting to see Grenade Launchers at 5 points, but there are other odd things.

25 point sentinels with multilasers... You have no idea how to create a balanced anything do you? Thats insane.

Them's is expensive! I shall now call them the Nerfhound, Pointless Wolf and Redundant Dog.

I'll wait and see on these. Being fast could be a serious boon, especially in dense terrain. It also means a surviving hound can contest a back field objective with a good chance of survival.

155 points or 170 with Lascannon... and it can't fire regular shells.

Yeah, if it could it would be a five point upgrade to the russ. It's really not that bad. The main gun is pretty effective against the right targets. The big problem is that the vendetta is just that much better at tank hunting. That thing is too damn cheap, I suspect that the nose lascanon is actually an upgrade (the wording is ambiguous). Making it 145.

the Punisher is heavily overpriced for a gun that doesn't even deny Sv6+ models their save

I agree.

The Camo Netting is interesting, giving tanks a 3+ save in cover. That ought to give Shummy fits. I know it gives me fits as I hate the way cover works in tanks in 5th... although that statement is redundant coming from me as I've hated all of GW's vehicle rules since 3rd. It also means that if you're stupid enough to take a Vanquisher and come up against a Camo-Netting tank horde at a Tourney, your Vanq is going to do even less (at BS3 87.5% of all your shots will do nothing against a tank with a 3+ save, and that's before rolling for penetration).

I don't think its that bad. 20 points per vehicle is pretty damn expensive and it's not that hard to deny vehicles cover. The 6+ even on open ground is spiffy though. A plasmatank in a forest with camo netting is going to take a lot of fire before going down.

Does the Valk kit even come with 3 lots of TL-Lascannons? If it doesn't I'd say it was an afterthought GW put in after the kit had been designed. Bad form. Lame and unnecessary.

I would hope so given the kit is designed to make both flyers.

The artillery... what can I say really. Seems the Bassie hasn't changed on iota other than to remove the step of having to buy Indirect Fire (anyone out there ever not buy that?). I still think the Colossus is redundant, I still think the Death Strike has no place in non-Apoc games and I still think that the Hydra is ill-suited to 40K even with a price tag of 75 (isn't it 200 in FW's rules?). I hope to the Emperor that the Hydra's armament is '4 Hydra Autocannons' otherwise I'll be annoyed if all four of those guns equate to a single R72 S7 AP4 Heavy 2 gun. Even two Hydra Autocannons is kinda lame, unless they're twin-linked, which I doubt they are otherwise the summary sheet would have mentioned it (it mentioned it for the Exterminator!). Griffin, ok, nice to have it back. Hope it ignores cover otherwise it's redundant and the Colossus is back to being useful. No Manticores in squadrons - Go go Arbitrary Restrictions! And the Medusa... ok... it's a slightly longer ranged Demolisher with way less armour and it cannot fire indirectly. Why are we bothering? It's not so much redundant as it is just plain bad!

The IG have too many tanks. There's going to be redundancy in roles no matter how its designed.

HW Squads at 60 for Mortars... yeah Mortars are worth about 40, so this squad is 20 points more than it should be to start with.

Yeah, so a heavy weapons team for the same points value of one terminator. No that doesn't add up. Sorry. An amoebad squad of 9 mortars is still ~40 points less than devastators with missile launchers. Sounds pretty good to me.

I hope that the Heavy Sentinel's MM is included on the sprue, otherwise it's another Vendetta afterthought idea.

yeah, that things too cheap. I really do hope its 145 with the three guns, though even then its too cheap. It's like a flying predator with more twin linking that can carry 12 men. Oh and with better side armor.

Shhh! Don't say that! Every time you insinuate that GW is attempting to use its rules to push new model kits, a Shummy gets its bile!!

Only when you say it without anything but mercurial and insubstantial evidence that doesn't even make sense upon inspection. Like you do. Every time.

16 pages and still going. Can't wait for the codex.

At this point, rumors are coming fast enough that we'll probably get a .PDF leak by the weekend. I think I'm going to try and resist making any sweeping judgments until then, but the rumors aren't looking so hot right now.

"Fast" is a nice benefit for the Hellhound, but we're paying 15 points more for the tank, we're losing 12" of weapon range, and XA and Smoke are both more expensive than the used to be. I haven't used Ogryns since they lost CCWs (and even then they were a weak unit.) Stormtroopers haven't been good in a decade. 2x Sentinels are 15 points more expensive than a Chimera, and are less useful.

It's nice to see some things that have sucked since the release of 3rd. Ed (mortars, grenade launchers) are receiving points discounts, but it's hard to justify 60 points for 3 mortars when you can get 3 autocannons for 75 points.

"I'll wait and see on these. Being fast could be a serious boon, especially in dense terrain. It also means a surviving hound can contest a back field objective with a good chance of survival. "


How are you taking these as Troops, Shuma? (Not to mention, vehicles aren't scoring units to begin with.)

Asmodai wrote:"I'll wait and see on these. Being fast could be a serious boon, especially in dense terrain. It also means a surviving hound can contest a back field objective with a good chance of survival. "


How are you taking these as Troops, Shuma? (Not to mention, vehicles aren't scoring units to begin with.)

Units that aren't scoring can contest. So, the Hellhound/Devil Dog/Banewolf and the Valkyrie/Vendetta are going to be useful to contest enemy objectives.

Also, rumour has it that Mechanized Platoons (That is, Platoons wherein each squad has a Chimera) will allow you to attatch a Hellhound to that Platoon. Thus, a Troops Hellhound. Maybe. Some rumours say that vehicles attatched to Platoons will still take up its original choice on the FOC...

Dave47 wrote:"Fast" is a nice benefit for the Hellhound, but we're paying 15 points more for the tank, we're losing 12" of weapon range, and XA and Smoke are both more expensive than the used to be.

True, but the Inferno Cannon probably auto-hits now, and I think it includes Smoke Launchers for free. That's what the rumours seem to indicate... Also, Extra Armour has tripled in cost, just like in the Marine Codex. Although, if you take a squadron of Hellhounds, they get the benefit of Extra Armour for free... this is, of course, tempered by the destruction of the Hellhound on an Immobilized result...