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Raxmei wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Shuma: You're aware that Bolter Marines in front of a Chimera can see and shoot at the sliver of the side, just giving up the 4+ for shooting at a non-primary facing, right?

Almost completely wrong. You can only do that if the facing you are in is completely obscured but you can see a facing that isn't, and the save is 3+.

Thats what I thought. I'm glad someone answered my question (albeit indirectly). That had me worried.

ubermosher wrote:

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:
Mate, I'm Australian and in Australia... I have no idea why I've got that bloody seppo flag. It annoys me no end.

Hey, apparently if I post from my Blackberry I'm Canadian. Not bad, eh?

Ha ha! I did notice you had a Canadian flag before. But I'm on a computer with a landline, although it is a ADSL2 broadband connection - there is no normal telephone line. And plenty of "other sites" recognise my IP as Australian... I get all sorts of ads with scantily clad women who clearly look American but supposedly are all "in my area", listing a suburb waaaaay over the other side of the city. And they're all in that same remote suburb too!

ShumaGorath wrote:

At a worse ballistic skill, worse side armor (only better in front), carrying far worse troops that hit like wet noodles and die even faster, with no side hatches (extremely crucial), no ability to take AP2/Anti-tank weapons, and who the feth ever uses the Amphibious ability?

Yes, the troops are weaker. Which is why you get to hold twice as many. Also the top hatch makes up for the lack of exit points. It means the squad gets to contribute something while they sit in their wet paper bag, unlike the razorback.

And the guardsmen are less than half as durable. Look, I think that the line of argument needs to be focused on the chimeras ability to allow a squad to shoot from within. If the five weapon port is true, than that's encouraging. Maybe in the new codex there is enough synergy built in that the price tag makes sense. We don't know that. Until we find that out, we're left with a tank that is a mediocre fire support vehicle and a lousy transport, yet it's priced like a mediocre fighting transport.

My thinking is thus: based on 35 pt rhinos, a chimera with no guns should run about the same. Higher front armor but lower side armor nearly cancel out, the lack of side hatches hurts, but when spammed a wall of AV12 is a bit intimidating. As a pure fire support Vehicle, with no transport capacity, a chimera would probably run around 45pts, maybe 50, assuming it didn't take heavy support slots. It's inability to take a decent weapon (even an autocannon would be aces), it's low BS, no twinlinking, and short range make it an annoyance at best. Combining the two might justify a 55pt price tag, but only if you think IG don't deserve a decent cheap transport. Essentially, by making the basic transport also a light tank, you're denying the IG the ability to have what most other races have, which is access to a transport that's either cheap or durable.

I don't doubt that we'll see plenty of chimeras at 55pts, if that includes ML and HB. We just won't see them actually transporting units very often.

@ShumaGorath: have you actually played with chimeras? I"m curious if you've had experience playing with them and the IG. I play mech IG, Mech marines, and Mech Eldar, and I've found that the IG's being forced to pay a premium for fire power is a bit of a hindrance. Ask 100 IG players, I bet 75% would buy 35pt rhinos for their squads instead of chimeras.

ubermosher wrote:Some more stuff:

Warseer's boogle wrote:
Catachan Devil Gunnery Sgt Harker - he's not a tank commander, he's definately a homage to Gunnery Sgt Hartman.
Knight Commander Pask of Cadia - no info about him rules wise, but he is mentioned as a new character in the blurb ('the return of old characters such as captain Chenkov and Al'rahem and some new characters such as Knight Commander Pask of Cadia and Catachan Devil Gunnery Sgt Harker'.

Yarrick - Iron Will - grants Eternal Warrior and a 'get up' save for his last wound, and his force field makes the enemy re-roll to wound rolls
Creed - in addition to his already known rules, he allows 1 unit to gain the scout USR

Thoughts are that KC Pask is the rumored tank commander upgrade, and that he didn't get a stat line in the summary b/c he doesn't survive if his tank is wrecked. Sounds like a BS 4 Vanquisher will be a fairly common sight in a couple months.

Harker had better come with those extra salty lines, otherwise he isn't a good Hartman homage.

Good to see that Yarrick gets his good old "not quite dead yet" thing again, it made him so characteristic.

Hold on, just thought about something. Would you be able to attach a priest and a commisar to a sqaud of ogryn? Nope the points costs vs effect still do not balance out.

So what happens when an enemy unit that can re-roll to wound rolls wounds Yarrick?

GW creating rules arguments since 1983

Polonius wrote:@ShumaGorath: have you actually played with chimeras? I"m curious if you've had experience playing with them and the IG. I play mech IG, Mech marines, and Mech Eldar, and I've found that the IG's being forced to pay a premium for fire power is a bit of a hindrance. Ask 100 IG players, I bet 75% would buy 35pt rhinos for their squads instead of chimeras.

Exactly the reason Guard players take Inducted Stormtroopers in Rhinos.

Yes, yes it would be overpriced. #1 - Why do you deep strike? Not to kill marines - to kill armor

Or to contest an objective. Or to shoot the crap out of the 5 man combat squad with missile launcher that is the only unit they've left holding their objective whilst the rest if your army holds yours. Or for any specific scenario reasons, say in a forthcoming supplement for the game. It's almost like tehy might think of these things when they write the rules.

... hmm... then again....

The Yarrick last W thing sounds right, he has a rule like that anyway. Forcefield sounds familiar as well. And yes, Creed does grant scout to a unit, think it can even apply to a vehicle, maybe even a squadron.
Think Valks come with scout and DS option as well.

Still another page or so and this too will be the end of the world as well no doubt.

Polonius wrote:@ShumaGorath: have you actually played with chimeras? I"m curious if you've had experience playing with them and the IG. I play mech IG, Mech marines, and Mech Eldar, and I've found that the IG's being forced to pay a premium for fire power is a bit of a hindrance. Ask 100 IG players, I bet 75% would buy 35pt rhinos for their squads instead of chimeras.

Actually yeah, the player I play most regularly is tau. Immediately following that its IG. Then IG/marines (he has both). Then Tau/nids/ig (he has all three). Then templar/orks. Finally Dark angels. After that its drifted out of the direct group of friends and is just up to whoever is at the store. The methodology by which my friend plays his IG tank wall (as a wall of tanks) essentially removes the possibility of a side armor hit. It's almost impossible to line up a side shot from any angle at all. Rear is even less possible.

I myself play a marine force with a reliance on mech (predator, two rhinos, razorback, 3 dreads, and a drop pod in my force at the moment). Both tau forces I regularly face go mech about half the time. The DA player throws land raiders at me like they grow on trees. I have experience with mech armies. Considerably more so then a few other army archtypes. I would agree that the chimera is a somewhat poor transport tank (though not at 55), but I don't believe that the hatch issue is an issue at all considering how mech IG hold objective (by not getting out of the tank).

I also find that statistic seriously suspect. Why would guard players want a very easily killed 35 point transport with no weapons to deliver their easily killed 10 man guardsman squads with low leadership? Doesn't your unit attempting to hold down an objective want some method of defending itself?

reds8n wrote:And yes, Creed does grant scout to a unit, think it can even apply to a vehicle, maybe even a squadron.

If true, I may bring Creed occasionally to Scout(or Outflank, depending on the wording[Grants to on table or grants, period]) a Squadron of Russes.

foil7102 wrote:So what happens when an enemy unit that can re-roll to wound rolls wounds Yarrick?

GW creating rules arguments since 1983

Roll to wound, and then regardless of the result roll again and use the second result.

Platuan4th wrote:

reds8n wrote:And yes, Creed does grant scout to a unit, think it can even apply to a vehicle, maybe even a squadron.

If true, I may bring Creed occasionally to Scout(or Outflank, depending on the wording[Grants to on table or grants, period]) a Squadron of Russes.

for units the reroll wounds.

reroll attacks that wound yarricks rule
reroll attacks that don't wound other players rule.

stop
as no dice can be rerolled more then once(page 2).

reds8n wrote:Still another page or so and this too will be the end of the world as well no doubt.

If you don't like posting here, then stop posting here. It's not like we're holding a gun to your head. Going on about it and Dakka's 'bad rep' doesn't help anyone or add to anything, and actually drags the thread down further.

drags the thread down further

You are funny.

It's certain posters dragging down every thread is the "problem".

Still, I'll leave you and your high horse to wallow further.

"bye".

I'm going to come back in here...

It seems the people that think guard are going to be terrible are getting loud again. Its not right to lump anyone in a 'totally dissapointed' or 'totally pleased' camp, unless they identify themselves as such. i don't think John or HBMC have done so... but some of their concerns are making me feel very disagree-y.

On chimeras... before the argument even gets started it needs to get squashed. You just can't compare a unit in one army to a unit in another. There is far too much modularity in the respective codexes. But after saying that, I'm going to allow myself to get drawn into the razorback comparison.

two things are getting massively downplayed. One, front armor 12. I know the sides are 10, put a russ next to it and screen that side from LOS, use your generalship to mitigate this weakness. Two, strength 6 main weapon. can penetrate armor 11, twice as good at penetrating armor 10, instant kills heavy weapons teams.

Two BS3 weapons versus one twin linked BS4 weapon are somewhat similar. Mathematically speaking, the two bs3 weapons hit more often by about .334, having shot a million times in a row that might be noticeable. Also 6 shots has more potential for damage. they average a number of hits that are very similar to the twin linked bolter, but as both can drop down to zero hits, only the chimera can exceed three hits. this will happen in games. Crew shaken effects both guns equally, but weapon destroyed diminishes the razorback firepower completely. The razorback gains a shooting advantage while on the move, but not really a large advantage, especially versus T4+ and vehicles.

The chimera is used in a different role than a razorback. Chimeras are safe places for command squads to deploy and issue orders, their side armor will be more protected by hanging back and using infantry models and other vehicles to control angles of possible shots and available frontages. if someones is in your massive side arc, but has no LOS to the arc because of a russ blocking his way, then he has to shoot at 12 front armor AND give you a 3+ cover save. Just use your generalship.

Worth 55 points to me.

As far as the other units revealing a little bit more of their weaknesses...

All i want is a guard book that has one or two tourney builds that will have people crying for a nerfing or banning of units, and then 5 or 6 tier 2-3 builds that are fun when playing at home or in a pick-up game. i can already tell you i've got a couple of each picked out, in broad strokes mind you (i don't know any points costs)

1-2 manticores 3-6 russes, hq command with sprinkled advisors, 2-3 infantry platoons, command squads in chimeras, spamming bladestorm with plasma guns and taking 2+ cover saves. Really, its 8+ pie plates a turn (at LEAST double what the worst iron warriors army could do at the height of their reign of terror) 2+ cover save infantry squads that are shooting way too much plasma when you get close. Heavy weapons chattering off of 3-4 chimeras and some amount of heavy sentinels. you can kill them if you want to divert your tank kill over to them, thats fine.

for fun lists...

1000 points in valks/vendettas, 750 in storm troopers/command squad

Who knows exactly what this will do, but i bet the word 'fun' will be an appropriate adjective.

penal legionarres/ogryns/rough riders

warrior weapons round two. Could be a fun change of pace.

6x40 infantry platoons

As far as an army that consists entirely of troops, this could easily rival the horde of boys for almost competitive. Very flavorful, see how many mortars can we fit into this one this time around. if the mortar units can form up, how many mortars can we get into a single unit to pound something out of los into oblivion. or we could add a big psyker coven to strip someones LD then drop 3-6 mortars in their kitchen. that would be a great one-two combo to completley freeze a high points cost unit that isn't fearless.

min troops platoons all in chimeras 3x hellhounds full mech

yet another spam army, similar to the armor 12 flood of the valkyrie spam list. Wouldn't be terrible, think of 3x melta special weapon squads riding in chimeras utilizing the 5 may shoot fire point.



i could go on like this, but in case anyone is still reading at this point, this book appears to me to be like the space marine and ork codexes. One or more power builds, but a massive amount of variations in casual list building, some of those casual lists can be rogue enough to actually show in a tourney.

just wanted to throw this out there as an aside after the combo unit revalation. It appears as though you could combine the lieutenant of a platoon with another unit, think of this trick. Buy him a power fist and any other model that might be able to buy a power fist. buy a medic, combine with 20 conscripts, make sure you have a commissar.... Now we have 25 stubborn models with fnp (maybe) with a floating power fist.

How about 2+ cover save FNP infantry squads, that sounds pretty good for a scoring unit right?

Looking forward to seeing what combinations will be legal and what rules medics and command squads have....

Anyway, continue watching the sky (to make sure its not falling)

I have been discussing the rumours you toolbox. In fact, I've been quite positive. I said only a page or so ago that I'm looking forward to the Codex.

Learn to fething read.

Great - now I have to go to Warseer to see if Reds8n's going to clarify anything else.

Have you heard anything about interconnectability with allies?

If Valks arent assigned transport vehicles might be a great delivery system for melta-armed sisters.

foil7102 wrote:Hold on, just thought about something. Would you be able to attach a priest and a commisar to a sqaud of ogryn? Nope the points costs vs effect still do not balance out.

Why cant you attach both? What effect are you looking for that an unknown points cost isnt worth? Its a bloodcrusher that gives up a power weapon and armor for an extra wound and a decent gun and is 5 points cheaper.

I suspect it'll be a matter of adding commissars to the Ogryn to get power weapon/fist access. And get around the Ld6 problem. Course if theyre independant characters, not upgrades, they might get singled out and snuffed, then the Ogryns morale-rolled during the next assault phase.

But that's just speculation, of course.

The discussion on the Chimera's values have been discussed to death. I always field a good number and even at their current value they make their points back, which is all that really matters. If you can't close the deal with them, you're doing something wrong. Rather than looking at how well they compare to another army look at how it can supplement your forces. In my army it works.

It works for me now, so if its made cheaper it can only be a good thing.

I'm not going to be surprised if chimeras include some additional equipment that isn't on there standard now, more than just a searchlight, I'd bet.

Another reason Chimeras are now better than Rhinos or Razorbacks, your commanders can issues orders out from a chimera but not a rhino or razorback. Probably not out of a Valkyrie either.

aka_mythos wrote:Probably not out of a Valkyrie either.

I just had the image in my mind of a Commander yelling out a valk window while its flying around and the guardsmen in the area going, wtf did he say?

Ivan wrote:Course if theyre independant characters, not upgrades, they might get singled out and snuffed, then the Ogryns morale-rolled during the next assault phase.

I thought commissars and priests were squad upgrades now.

Gestalt wrote:

Ivan wrote:Course if theyre independant characters, not upgrades, they might get singled out and snuffed, then the Ogryns morale-rolled during the next assault phase.

I thought commissars and priests were squad upgrades now.

Commissars & Priests have different weapons and by my understanding can be picked out in combat. Orgyns will lose combat on wounds against high save units and be cut down as they flee. Did someone say these jokes are 35 points each? How on earth are they equal to a fully equipped Imperial Guard squad for two of them?

I see merging squads is the solution to the KP issue, it seems that I wasn't too far off: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/224832.page

"I've got a bad feeling about this" - Han Solo

George Spiggott wrote:

I see merging squads is the solution to the KP issue, it seems that I wasn't too far off: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/224832.page

Wait, did you just pat yourself on the back?

On topic though, I am looking forward to this codex. A lot.

And I am one of those fools that will try to make Stormtroopers work.

I have quite a few of them, of almost all model types...

Alpharius wrote:Wait, did you just pat yourself on the back?

Shot myself in the foot more like...

Commissars & Priests have different weapons and by my understanding can be picked out in combat.

they are not independent characters, so why would you be able to pick them out in CC ? you would just have to roll their saves seperately because of the different weapon load out.

If they arent IC how would they be picked out? Yes the ogryns would lose combat but they wont flee with stubborn and a commissar or officer withing 12". Its harder to kill ogryns than it is to kill equal points of guardsmen for a tar pit, even more so without running.