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On the bright side, the IG bandwagon is leaving with no-one on it =)

Except, a Chimera is now only worth 45 or 50 pts, not 55 pts. Certainly not 90+ pts.

Vendetta seems like an awfully expensive Predator Annihilator...

I don't think you've priced one of those lately..

xcept, a Chimera is now only worth 45 or 50 pts, not 55 pts.

Yeah, you keep living in that world where a chimera should cost as much as a razorback. Even with twice as many (or more) weapons, better armor, twice the carrying capacity, and being amphibious.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:Now if only I could get my little flag thingy changed too.

You'd have actually be in Australia first, not just wishing you were to further imitate me.

Five points too much and the world seizes to be! Ogryn can't fly and the entire galaxy implodes! God or whatever you pray to cries at the atrocities committed in this new codex!

I'd ask to please quit nitpicking something that hasn't been released yet but you can't fight the septic tides coming from these series of tubes.

Are Ogryns getting FNP or some other special rule? Because without it, I'm having trouble justifying their 35 point cost...

EDIT: And to address BrookM, this is a News + Rumor board. We shouldn't have to wait until May to comment on the plentiful rumors swirling around.

Crap, why does the cost of the Valk keep going up?! 80, 90, 115, 125?!

35 point Ogryns.... wtf. They better be T5 FNP Rending Stubborn Furious Charge.

Mandatory 10man Vet squads, oh well, I think we saw that one coming, it was too good not to nerf :(

15 plasmagun, it better benefit from the "extra shot" order...

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vendetta seems like an awfully expensive Predator Annihilator...

I don't think you've priced one of those lately..

Well, not with AV12 and BS3 on a platform that requies SMF to stay alive, I haven't...

ShumaGorath wrote:

xcept, a Chimera is now only worth 45 or 50 pts, not 55 pts.

Yeah, you keep living in that world where a chimera should cost as much as a razorback. Even with twice as many (or more) weapons, better armor, twice the carrying capacity, and being amphibious.

Twice the guns at half the utility from worse BS and defensive weapon nerf; paper-thin armor on the largest sides; twice the capacity for less than half the passenger utility; and amphibious that is useless at least 90% of the time. 45 pts is fair.

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah, you keep living in that world where a chimera should cost as much as a razorback. Even with twice as many (or more) weapons, better armor, twice the carrying capacity, and being amphibious.

Most of us live their Shummy. The land where Chimeras are worth more than 50 points has a population of one - you. Razorback's BS4, carries Twin-Linked weapons, and has AV11 flanks. The Chimera can't move and fire both its guns like it used to, and has 6" long sides that are AV10.

It's worth 50 with guns at most.

BYE

I'll take a side armor of ten over having basic tau infantry rifles kill my transports from the front any day. I can control the facing of my tank, an eleven front armor is a joke.

As for twin linked BS4, all that says is that my one heavy bolter will hit three times. Your heavy bolters will also hit three time. One weapon destroyed result takes away all my transports teeth, a result which is a hell of a lot easier considering that armor value of 11. One weapon destroyed on a chimera means it still has a gun. True, the razorback has a slight edge while moving but I would gladly opt out of that to be able to hold a full squad and have an armor value that doesn't ensure my tank is penetrated on average rolls from a missile launcher, lance, long range melta or MM, barbed strangler, rokkit, etc.

Also twice the carrying capacity, don't forget that. You don't have to take minimum squads or combat squad just to fit into your tank.

ShumaGorath wrote:

xcept, a Chimera is now only worth 45 or 50 pts, not 55 pts.

Yeah, you keep living in that world where a chimera should cost as much as a razorback. Even with twice as many (or more) weapons, better armor, twice the carrying capacity, and being amphibious.

that's not really a fair comparison, and is pretty misleading. Amphibious isn't worth anything, The better armor up front is virtually balanced by huge AV10 sides, the carrying capacity of the IG is higher, but the survivability of what's inside is still less, and the chimera has more guns, but lower BS and they weren't twin linked. Chimeras are better, to be sure (slightly more firepower, more durable, have a fire point), but it's important to keep in mind that the Razorback is an option. The chimera isn't just the IG's fire support IFV, it's also the APC. Barring any new rules or some other reason to justify 55pts, pricing the Chimera at 50 or even 45pts probably isn't totally out of line given the cost of the HB Razorback. Now, I think the argument could be made that some of the Razorback's cost is included in the inflated price tag of Tactical squads, but by that token I'm not blown away by the cost savings of the new IG squads either.

Shuma: You're aware that Bolter Marines in front of a Chimera can see and shoot at the sliver of the side, just giving up the 4+ for shooting at a non-primary facing, right?

AV10 sides are a *huge* liability in the current environment. It's a very crappy Transport.

The only situation which a Chimera does better is when it is a pillbox. But if you need pillboxes, for the cost of 3 Chimeras, you can take a single Russ...

ShumaGorath wrote:I'll take a side armor of ten over having basic tau infantry rifles kill my transports from the front any day. I can control the facing of my tank, an eleven front armor is a joke.

As for twin linked BS4, all that says is that my one heavy bolter will hit three times. Your heavy bolters will also hit three time. One weapon destroyed result takes away all my transports teeth, a result which is a hell of a lot easier considering that armor value of 11. One weapon destroyed on a chimera means it still has a gun. True, the razorback has a slight edge while moving but I would gladly opt out of that to be able to hold a full squad and have an armor value that doesn't ensure my tank is penetrated on average rolls from a missile launcher, lance, long range melta or MM, barbed strangler, rokkit, etc.

Also twice the carrying capacity, don't forget that. You don't have to take minimum squads or combat squad just to fit into your tank.

I mentioned this is my earlier post that got beat out by HBMC, but I think you're making two key mistakes:
1) over valuing the stand and shoot value of a transport. The job of a chimera is to move squads to claim objectives, not just to stand and shoot. In this regard, it has less firepower than a razorback. The IG have and will have plenty of options for static firepower (fire support squads in particular), but have a huge gap in terms of mobile units.
2) Over valuing the durability of the tank from the front. Yes, AV 12 is notably better as front army, but AV 10 is notably worse as side armor.

Polonius wrote:Barring any new rules or some other reason to justify 55pts, pricing the Chimera at 50 or even 45pts probably isn't totally out of line given the cost of the HB Razorback.

Now, I think the argument could be made that some of the Razorback's cost is included in the inflated price tag of Tactical squads, but by that token I'm not blown away by the cost savings of the new IG squads either.

But the Tacticals get FREE basic Special and Heavy weapons included. So you can't double-count the FREEness unless you're counting the Tactical base value at 13 pts instead of 15 pts.

Were Ogryn ever confirmed to have FNP etc? If so, with T5 and 3 wounds they might be worth ~30-35 points. I would like them to be able to take a power weapon of some sort though for those sorts of points. Maybe a Bonehead or Commisar upgrade...

Really got to wonder why all the blisters and what not are single run, and why the Commissar Lord - of all things - is direct only.

Not that I mind, if I'm going to do a direct order I might as well make it worthwhile and get a bunch of stuff at the same time (now I can get the Commissar, Advisors, and the direct only Techmarine I've been meaning to get all at the same time), but just seems odd to have these brand new models not even get released in stores.

I think it's a real tossup whether or not 11/11/10 is better or worse than 12/10/10. I tend to find that I can only "control my facing" if I use Chimeras as static backfield fire-bases. (And even then, I'm vulnerable to high-mobility units.) If I try to use them as transports, and move forward, I tend to get hit on sides a lot.

It's also worth noting that a Chimera isn't transporting Space Marines, it's transporting Imperial Guardsmen.

Chimeras are strange units, in that their tank role conflicts with their transport role. Assuming they are getting free smoke + searchlights, I think 55 points is "fair," but it's hardly a "bargain" given the low cost of other 5th Ed. transports.

Lord Cook wrote:New 'Rumours'
> When merging platoons you pick and choose which squads are merged. So a platoon with five infantry squads could merge them into two units of 20 men and one unit of 10 men, or any combination you like.

> Veterans now always come in 10 man squads. Troops choice.

> Ogryns are 115 points for a starting squad of 3, and +35 points for each new ogryn on top of that.

The important part is can the platoon HQ merge with other squads? 15 guard with 6 special weapons? 25 with 8? And can it order itself?

I guess vets will just be an AF squad with BS4 if they cant deep strike.

3 ogryns are 115, but at 35 each its only 105, whats the extra 10 for? Bone'ead I guess? Before you complain about the price remember they are T5 with 3 wounds, and Stubborn. (rumor as base, or with a commissar) Thats a better tar pit than the equivalent in guardsmen, and fits in a transport. It fits perfectly with guard, they won't kill as much, but anything that can take a charge from bloodcrushers and not crumple should be worth something.

Edit: Rumor was FNP OR T5, looks like they got T5, who knows what the Bone'ead has access to, commissar should get a PW/PF at least.

1) over valuing the stand and shoot value of a transport. The job of a chimera is to move squads to claim objectives, not just to stand and shoot. In this regard, it has less firepower than a razorback. The IG have and will have plenty of options for static firepower (fire support squads in particular), but have a huge gap in terms of mobile units.

I play mech guard armies regularly (they're popular in my area for some reason) and I really don't see the chimeras as a moving transport. More often then not they're firing the big guns. It's not like the troops need to be closer to the enemy until the final turns of the game. Until then the chimera is just a shell that lets them fire their lascanon in relative safety while it fires two heavy weapons of its own.

Shuma: You're aware that Bolter Marines in front of a Chimera can see and shoot at the sliver of the side, just giving up the 4+ for shooting at a non-primary facing, right?

I was under the impression that you could only ever fire at a facing of a tank that you were on. With the only exception being that you can only see a portion of a certain facing and nothing else such as with blocking cover.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Yeah, you keep living in that world where a chimera should cost as much as a razorback. Even with twice as many (or more) weapons, better armor, twice the carrying capacity, and being amphibious.

At a worse ballistic skill, worse side armor (only better in front), carrying far worse troops that hit like wet noodles and die even faster, with no side hatches (extremely crucial), no ability to take AP2/Anti-tank weapons, and who the feth ever uses the Amphibious ability?

With a Multilaser/HB, a Chimera is only doing 4 wounds for every 3 the Razorback inflicts with it's BS4 TL HB against most infantry targets, not a huge increase. Considering the increase in cost and other disadvantages and the far inferior capabilities of the transported troops, it's a marginal benefit.

3 ogryns are 115, but at 35 each its only 105, whats the extra 10 for? Bone'ead I guess? Before you complain about the price remember they are T5 with 3 wounds, and Stubborn. (rumor as base, or with a commissar) Thats a better tar pit than the equivalent in guardsmen, and fits in a transport. It fits perfectly with guard, they won't kill as much, but anything that can take a charge from bloodcrushers and not crumple should be worth something.

Yes, stubborn is nice, but Ogryns are Ld6, 7 with a bone'ead (According to leaked summary sheet). Kinda defeats the purpose of Stubborn.

At 35pts, expect them to be seen about as often as they are now (I.E never) unless they get another ability we haven't heard about yet.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:Now if only I could get my little flag thingy changed too.

You'd have actually be in Australia first, not just wishing you were to further imitate me.

Mate, I'm Australian and in Australia... I have no idea why I've got that bloody seppo flag. It annoys me no end.

Vaktathi wrote:Yes, stubborn is nice, but Ogryns are Ld6, 7 with a bone'ead (According to leaked summary sheet). Kinda defeats the purpose of Stubborn.

Commissars are LD9 though, and there was a rumor of furious charge too. Priest might bring something to that too. Ripper guns are S5 Assault 3.

At a worse ballistic skill, worse side armor (only better in front), carrying far worse troops that hit like wet noodles and die even faster, with no side hatches (extremely crucial), no ability to take AP2/Anti-tank weapons, and who the feth ever uses the Amphibious ability?

Yes, the troops are weaker. Which is why you get to hold twice as many. Also the top hatch makes up for the lack of exit points. It means the squad gets to contribute something while they sit in their wet paper bag, unlike the razorback.

focusedfire wrote:Just trying to make the point that we don't know the rules yet. So don't get storms=bad stuck in the head. Keep an open mind until you see for yourself if they contain massive amounts of suckage.

You're right, we don't know the rules yet. And along with that, we don't know the points yet. I'll keep an open mind until I see a confirmation on points. My argument is based on the conjecture that Storms are 16 points (which, I still don't know where that number is from).

focusedfire wrote:Actually, you've made your mind up that they are useless before even seening the codex . I'm not saying that they are 16pts. just that they would still be very useful at that price. You guys are the only ones I think that would complain about a squad like this. A squad armed with ap3 weapons, able to take 2 meltas or flamers for 6pt/ea, that has a re-rollable deepstrike, infiltrate, better armour than the rest of their army, possible gauranteed first turn deepstrike from reserves, and has extra special orders. OMFG, thats so overpriced.(Thats sarcasm for you blokes that don't get it)

Yes, yes it would be overpriced. #1 - Why do you deep strike? Not to kill marines - to kill armor. So, frankly, those AP3 Hellguns are kinda wasted on a task like that. Do they and the carapace armor provide better survivability? Marginally - but if you're deep striking, you're probably getting assaulted either the next round or round after that (if you survive the incoming fire). And carapace and hellguns won't help you much there against marines. Against someone else? Marginally. #2 - What would this cost? Well, let's start with 160 points for the base squad. Add another 20 for melta guns (as has just been suggested). Compare this to a 6-man SWS that has been suggested - even if they're only able to run 2 melta guns, these guys are probably going to be half as cheap. So they get killed next round? If they plugged their tank like they were supposed to, fine! They were expendable.

focusedfire wrote:Foil brought up the point of fire warriors. Funny. If I took the 12pt/ea ethereal retinue and gave them the grenades that the storms get for free the they are 16 pts each. A deepstriked squad of storms would annihalate the Ethereal and his retinue, head to head.

Now that's just comparing apples to oranges. I'm not going to argue about that.

Platuan4th is right, though. Mech Guard with cheap troops in Chimeras and armor is going to be where it's at.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I play mech guard armies regularly (they're popular in my area for some reason) and I really don't see the chimeras as a moving transport.

That's actually sort of the problem, though. 5th edition missions are based on two things: getting troops units onto objectives, and not losing units. If a unit can't help with either of those, it had better supply some pretty serious fire power to justify itself.

The fact that the Chimera isn't used as a transport isn't a feature, it's flaw.

More often then not they're firing the big guns. It's not like the troops need to be closer to the enemy until the final turns of the game.

Unless they're a flamer command squad, a storm trooper squad, a squad trying to take the enemies base objective, or really just any unit trying claim any objective. If you're saying that at 55pts the chimera would be a great addition to 4th edition static shooting armies, I'd heartily agree. This is a brave new world, and I'd like a transport that can actually hold up a little bit, or be so cheap I can have some redundancy.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:
Mate, I'm Australian and in Australia... I have no idea why I've got that bloody seppo flag. It annoys me no end.

Hey, apparently if I post from my Blackberry I'm Canadian. Not bad, eh?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Shuma: You're aware that Bolter Marines in front of a Chimera can see and shoot at the sliver of the side, just giving up the 4+ for shooting at a non-primary facing, right?

Almost completely wrong. You can only do that if the facing you are in is completely obscured but you can see a facing that isn't, and the save is 3+.

Some more stuff:

Warseer's boogle wrote:
Catachan Devil Gunnery Sgt Harker - he's not a tank commander, he's definately a homage to Gunnery Sgt Hartman.
Knight Commander Pask of Cadia - no info about him rules wise, but he is mentioned as a new character in the blurb ('the return of old characters such as captain Chenkov and Al'rahem and some new characters such as Knight Commander Pask of Cadia and Catachan Devil Gunnery Sgt Harker'.

Yarrick - Iron Will - grants Eternal Warrior and a 'get up' save for his last wound, and his force field makes the enemy re-roll to wound rolls
Creed - in addition to his already known rules, he allows 1 unit to gain the scout USR

Thoughts are that KC Pask is the rumored tank commander upgrade, and that he didn't get a stat line in the summary b/c he doesn't survive if his tank is wrecked. Sounds like a BS 4 Vanquisher will be a fairly common sight in a couple months.

BoxANT wrote:Mandatory 10man Vet squads, oh well, I think we saw that one coming, it was too good not to nerf :(

I don't know if we saw the mandatory 10-man part, but the nerfbat had been sighted shortly after it was confirmed that IG were the next codex out.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Yes, the troops are weaker. Which is why you get to hold twice as many.

those 10 guardsmen have nowhere near the life expectancy, firepower, or utility of 5 or 6 Space Marines. Stop trying to make it sound like the larger model count makes all the difference in the world. It would if we were talking about roughly equal troops but we aren't.

Also the top hatch makes up for the lack of exit points. It means the squad gets to contribute something while they sit in their wet paper bag, unlike the razorback.

It also makes it Open Topped, meaning return fire and CC attacks make it much easier to kill, and firing one extra weapon (and no heavy if it moved) and some additional lasguns *does not* make up for much, especially nowhere near the lack of a side hatch.

Lacking the side hatches of the Rhino, Razorback, Land Raider and Devilfish, it means that when disembarking they generally have to show the weakest armor on the vehicle (AV10) of some facing, where most other armies don't have this disadvantage or their transports are mounted on flying bases allowing them shots to be placed through the vehicles space underneath it allowing the weak armor to remain hidden. I cannot stress enough how big of a problem that is.

Honestly, the Chimera as a total package is rather poor. It hasn't been rethought since it's inception in 93/94.