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Some decent points Minsc. Just remember though, stubborn does not mean unbreakable. What is the night goblin leadership? Is it higher than 7?

Are you borrowing the generals leadership? Where is he? Can his unit be attacked instead? Is HIS unit 50 strong as well?

I would imagine a 5 wide 22 rank night goblin unit will be quite terrible. Moving 4, marching 8 and charging 4 + d6. What will this unit do aside from being difficult to defeat from the front?

the depth of this unit is 17 inches? While the width is a mere 4"? How is it deployed legally on the table?

How many points is that unit of night goblins? Is it expensive enough for it to be 'ok' for it to win a combat? Especially if the victory would likely bring its massive flank in range of a ranked up block?


this line of thinking reminds me a lot of how freaked out people were gettin with the new cover rules for 40k. It was quickly apparent to people seeing the previe of the rules, that infantry squads would be able to provide cover to each other! And in some cases not giving cover to the enemy while doing so! The sky was certainly falling... and now that cover save rule has just become a complete non-issue.

Shep wrote:Some decent points Minsc. Just remember though, stubborn does not mean unbreakable. What is the night goblin leadership? Is it higher than 7?

Are you borrowing the generals leadership? Where is he? Can his unit be attacked instead? Is HIS unit 50 strong as well?

I would imagine a 5 wide 22 rank night goblin unit will be quite terrible. Moving 4, marching 8 and charging 4 + d6. What will this unit do aside from being difficult to defeat from the front?

the depth of this unit is 17 inches? While the width is a mere 4"? How is it deployed legally on the table?

How many points is that unit of night goblins? Is it expensive enough for it to be 'ok' for it to win a combat? Especially if the victory would likely bring its massive flank in range of a ranked up block?


this line of thinking reminds me a lot of how freaked out people were gettin with the new cover rules for 40k. It was quickly apparent to people seeing the previe of the rules, that infantry squads would be able to provide cover to each other! And in some cases not giving cover to the enemy while doing so! The sky was certainly falling... and now that cover save rule has just become a complete non-issue.

Its deployed long wise, and then he says he reforms it into deep wise.

Ozymandias wrote:And then watch as a Hochland Long Rifle kills the BSB...

You'll need at least two to get it done on Turn 1, otherwise you're pretty much unlikely to negate it barring a charge on the unit. Why?

__EEEEE
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==========
==========
O=========
==========

Ranks go something like the above, ='s are Gobbos, O = Orc, E = enemies. Mr. Engineer won't have LoS

Also, I'd bet that the O&G are on the short list to get a new army book so I wouldn't be surprised if that combo goes away pretty quickly.

Oh of course. I'd be surprised frankly if - out of all the new books - O&G didn't get a Beastmen treatment. Heck, it's starting to come to the point I wouldn't be surprised if it splits into "Army Book: Orcs" and "Army Book: Goblins", with "Goblinoid" as a generic replacement in the Orc book.

EDIT:

Shep wrote:Are you borrowing the generals leadership? Where is he? Can his unit be attacked instead? Is HIS unit 50 strong as well?

His unit isn't intended to be that large. Though it probably will be 50 models.

Shep wrote:I would imagine a 5 wide 22 rank night goblin unit will be quite terrible. Moving 4, marching 8 and charging 4 + d6. What will this unit do aside from being difficult to defeat from the front?

It isn't there to move. It's there to statically provide some 30+ Dispel Dice a turn.

Shep wrote:the depth of this unit is 17 inches? While the width is a mere 4"? How is it deployed legally on the table?

Re-read what either I or Karon wrote. It isn't being deployed at the front of my army, but the very back essentially as:
_ _ _ _ _ _
======
======

Long-ways. Whenever you "rotate" a unit, you're actually having the troops turn - not the regiment wheel. Thus, it's not the end moving upward from one corner to another: It's the command shifting from about the middle _ on the first line to the first ='s position on the second.

Shep wrote:How many points is that unit of night goblins? Is it expensive enough for it to be 'ok' for it to win a combat? Especially if the victory would likely bring its massive flank in range of a ranked up block?

Again, they aren't meant to get into combat. Ever. They're meant to be some 600pt (for the +39 Dispel Dice, only 450 for +29 Dispel Dice and 300 for +19) buffer for another 150pt character for a sum total of "Your magic phase is done".

Furthermore, pretty much anyone already knows that - barring the Night Goblin unit being crammed full of characters - that they aren't going to win combat no matter how big they are. It's not WH40K: You can't do death by 1000 cuts due to ever model that you can start the turn within 14" of an enemy getting full attacks. You're, most likely in a 40+ Night Goblin unit - only going to get about 20 at best fighting (and that if charged whilst using spears and the enemy had an exceptionally large front and then wiffed with all their attacks). That's one of the problems with WHFB, and it can't be countered by saying "They get to attack more" as then the enemy benefits from it as well. Fighting in a third rank with hordes sounds great at first, until you realize that a 5-wide 20mm unit smart enough not to increase their frontage is maybe being hit by 21 models at best, 18 if the attackers are 25mm. Meaning that out of your 30+ models, somewhere around a third of them aren't attacking, and all the extra ranks behind those aren't attacking either, and with the new stubborn rule they lose out anyways as the enemy - by not going wide - is now taking no penalties to their break check.

Karon wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

Karon wrote:Oversimplification

.

I find that comment hilarious coming from someone that has been making judgements based on partial rumours, to the point of concluding 8th sucks

Heres a tip... read the full ruleset... make some lists... play some games and then make judgement about it because at this point you and all of us dont know jack Shat about the 8th.

I've been making judgments off of RUMORS, yes, rumors.

I've just been saying when taking a rumor on its own, and having only that rumor, combined with some others, it does sound pretty terrible.

But that is based off of rumors, so that is the only thing that we can do.

Well the OP first post is a great thing to have and debate, YET how can you pass a judgement on a 500plus page rulebook just based in less than one page of RUMORS?! If thats not "Oversimplification" to the extreme I dont know what is. That is what I find funny.
No its not the only thing we can do... we can also all debate things and wait and try out the 8th before making judgemental remarks all stressed out that the sky is falling. Relax man.


Ozymandias have you heard any word on O&G book?

The latest rumours, that will be added to the sticky eventually. I think the 2 ranks thing has already been discussed.

Flank/ Rear charges & Combat Resolution
• Units need to have at least 2 complete ranks in order to negate enemy flank/rear.

Fear and Terror
• When you charge a Fear or Terror causer you take the Fear/Terror test not before you charge, but at the start of the combat phase. - Avian

If you fail the Fear/Terror test you are reduced to WS1 & A1. Presumably mounts are reduced to WS1 & A1 as well.

Terror comes with a chance to run away.

Skirmishers
Skirmishers are now a fixed formation, with a 1 inch gap between each and every model. -Avian and Kah-thurak

X = Model
O = 1" Gap between

X O X O X O X O X
O O O O O O O O O
X O X O X O X O X

Still rank up in combat.

Grimstonefire wrote:Skirmishers
Skirmishers are now a fixed formation, with a 1 inch gap between each and every model. -Avian and Kah-thurak

X = Model
O = 1" Gap between

X O X O X O X O X
O O O O O O O O O
X O X O X O X O X

Still rank up in combat.

Lot of people won't like that!

JohnHwangDD wrote:Lot of people won't like that!

add it to the list of all of the things theyre not going to like. theres always complaining no matter what.
when i first saw this particular nugget i couldnt quite see why... it just seems annoying but then i came to the conclusion that i bet youll see a new skirmisher movement tray in the not to far future

NAVARRO wrote:
Ozymandias have you heard any word on O&G book?

Nothing other than historical precedent. It's always (well, last few editions anyway) been one of the first 3 books released after a new edition. And with the current state of the book's power level I wouldn't be surprised if we see it before Tomb Kings, Brettonia, OK, etc.

Skirmishers are fixed formation? Really? Ouch. Hate to lose the convenience of just moving in terrain willy nilly.

Get ready for the GW skirmisher movement tray.

Edit: Ninja'd on the movement tray, haha

That skirmisher thing is just irritating because it will slow down movement.. Sorry thats .5 an inch redo it.. Oh thats .75 an inch.. hey thats over an inch.. Please check every single model every single time you move?? Seriously come on

If that strange formation thing all that's changing about skirmishers then i'm not to disappointed. Their freedom of movement was a huge advantage, and it's fair for it to be neutered somewhat.

I'm actually really excited to play 8th ed with my Wood elves. Their balance has been thrown all over the place. Glade guard, Eternal guard and Treekin are receiving big boosts, all the skirmishers are slightly neutered, fear will boost dryads hitting power, who knows what happening to the big monsters like dragons and treemen. i honestly don't know how my army will look yet. Very exciting!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirasu wrote:That skirmisher thing is just irritating because it will slow down movement.. Sorry thats .5 an inch redo it.. Oh thats .75 an inch.. hey thats over an inch.. Please check every single model every single time you move?? Seriously come on

Sucks to have opponents like yours.

Grimstonefire wrote:If you fail the Fear/Terror test you are reduced to WS1 & A1. Presumably mounts are reduced to WS1 & A1 as well.

Wait, so if my Night Goblins fail a Fear test against Skeletons their only penalty is the enemy gets +1 to hit, and if they fail against Zombies they're -1?

Goblins are unbothered by fear, practically

Grimstonefire wrote:Skirmishers
Skirmishers are now a fixed formation, with a 1 inch gap between each and every model. -Avian and Kah-thurak

X = Model
O = 1" Gap between

X O X O X O X O X
O O O O O O O O O
X O X O X O X O X

Still rank up in combat.

At first, I thought "that's not too bad - it saves time moving". And it's true... if all you're using Skirmishers for is running around as a loose block. But you don't. This is going to play hell with Skirmisher LoS, standard moving practices (March 12" to get between / behind enemy units), and so on. Skirmishers are essentially becoming blocks less bothered by terrain and templates, instead of a maneuverable force that can dance between small gaps in an enemy's lines or harass a unit along its flanks. Skink Skirmishers are really not going to like this change, nor Gutter Runners. Or Squig Hoppers, now that I think about it. Hm, to be honest, Dryads might be one of the least bothered by this.

Skirmishers are pretty much useless with this change.

Minsc wrote:

Grimstonefire wrote:If you fail the Fear/Terror test you are reduced to WS1 & A1. Presumably mounts are reduced to WS1 & A1 as well.

Wait, so if my Night Goblins fail a Fear test against Skeletons their only penalty is the enemy gets +1 to hit, and if they fail against Zombies they're -1?

Goblins are unbothered by fear, practically

Yeah the fact that things with the worst leadership typically have the worst other stats means fear is going to be pretty useless and everything that has the rule is now overcosted.

Avian is hinting they may still have 360 LoS.

Kirasu wrote:That skirmisher thing is just irritating because it will slow down movement.. Sorry thats .5 an inch redo it.. Oh thats .75 an inch.. hey thats over an inch.. Please check every single model every single time you move?? Seriously come on

Wouldn't it be easy enough to make some sort of special skirmisher tray, though?

That change does sound like it sucks, though. I don't really understand WFB rules but it looked like it was cool to have a disparate, 40k-style unit charge a thick block of troops.

I think this clearly reinforces the 'no partials' rumour, as otherwise people could have tried some unusual tricks to get around it. Standardising all skirmishers like this is quite logical imo.

Ixquic wrote:Skirmishers are pretty much useless with this change.

Correction: Units of skirmishers greater than 5 are pretty much useless. Spam them in small units now, as even having to keep formation you can probably sorta work a formation similar to normal with such low numbers.

Ostrakon wrote:Wouldn't it be easy enough to make some sort of special skirmisher tray, though?

Depends on if it has a set distance the models need to keep, or if it's related to base size. 1" gaps between 20mm models - for instance - could be a bit of a pain to work out.

Minsc wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Skirmishers are pretty much useless with this change.

Correction: Units of skirmishers greater than 5 are pretty much useless. Spam them in small units now, as even having to keep formation you can probably sorta work a formation similar to normal with such low numbers.

Ostrakon wrote:Wouldn't it be easy enough to make some sort of special skirmisher tray, though?

Depends on if it has a set distance the models need to keep, or if it's related to base size. 1" gaps between 20mm models - for instance - could be a bit of a pain to work out.

Definitely a pain, yes, but still possible as long as you know the parameters.

I'd really be surprised if its not simply a max of 1" away.

I wonder if this was an attempt to get rid of some of those crazy conga line situations?

Not do derail the thread, but does anyone know if there will be any model's released with the new book besides the starter set?

As to the rumors I'll hold judgement after I see the new book.

Minsc wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Skirmishers are pretty much useless with this change.

Correction: Units of skirmishers greater than 5 are pretty much useless. Spam them in small units now, as even having to keep formation you can probably sorta work a formation similar to normal with such low numbers.

This is true but what skirmishers can you take units that small of? Most small skirmishing units are in the special and rare slots and thus you can only get three if the current anti-spamming rumor is correct.

Sounds like a way to make people not buy skink skirmishers

More like a way for people who bought Skinks to now have to buy Saurus.

Clever, GW!

Eh its alright the battle force comes with everything you need.. I have a good amount of both. Lizardmen is one of the few armies that you dont need metal or many individual boxsets for

It appears to be another 'if it's not a ranked infantry unit, we're going to nerf it to hell.' move.

Ozymandias wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:
Ozymandias have you heard any word on O&G book?

Nothing other than historical precedent. It's always (well, last few editions anyway) been one of the first 3 books released after a new edition. And with the current state of the book's power level I wouldn't be surprised if we see it before Tomb Kings, Brettonia, OK, etc.

GW already announced O&G are the next book - I got the email weeks ago.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:
Ozymandias have you heard any word on O&G book?

Nothing other than historical precedent. It's always (well, last few editions anyway) been one of the first 3 books released after a new edition. And with the current state of the book's power level I wouldn't be surprised if we see it before Tomb Kings, Brettonia, OK, etc.

GW already announced O&G are the next book - I got the email weeks ago.

Mind copy and pasting this? Cause there was an email about the new figures... but I just checked my gw emails from the past 2 months... NOTHING on a new book...

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:
Ozymandias have you heard any word on O&G book?

Nothing other than historical precedent. It's always (well, last few editions anyway) been one of the first 3 books released after a new edition. And with the current state of the book's power level I wouldn't be surprised if we see it before Tomb Kings, Brettonia, OK, etc.

GW already announced O&G are the next book - I got the email weeks ago.

Oh? so in the summer?

Grimstonefire wrote:
Fear and Terror
• When you charge a Fear or Terror causer you take the Fear/Terror test not before you charge, but at the start of the combat phase. - Avian

If you fail the Fear/Terror test you are reduced to WS1 & A1. Presumably mounts are reduced to WS1 & A1 as well.

Terror comes with a chance to run away.

"Ok lads, we're going to attack that group of re-animated rotting corpses."
"Right you are, boss. Chaaaaarge!"
"Whoa! These guys are pretty freaky up close. My reaction is to tentatively poke at them with my sword."

Sigh!

Manfred von Drakken wrote:GW already announced O&G are the next book - I got the email weeks ago.

Did you actually read it?

Models only (boar boys and river trolls). No new book this year, though a fair-average chance for late next year (imo).

People saying they will get one early 2011, but there's still OK, TK, Brets and WE. All of which are having fairly substantial changes as a result of 8th ed so are in much more need of an update first.