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Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:
Ozymandias have you heard any word on O&G book?

Nothing other than historical precedent. It's always (well, last few editions anyway) been one of the first 3 books released after a new edition. And with the current state of the book's power level I wouldn't be surprised if we see it before Tomb Kings, Brettonia, OK, etc.

GW already announced O&G are the next book - I got the email weeks ago.

Did you bother to read it?

It said new figures - river trolls and boar boyz. Nothing else.

Problem with horde people tend to miss: Armies that can't take it reliably but do like unlimited ranks and are already good enough with their normal front can easily counter it - five-wide front / three ride Ogres. If 25mm bases, you miss out on 9 attacking models (if on 20mm bases) or 6 if on 20mm. If 20mm you miss out on either 12 attacking models (25mm) or 9 attacking models (20mm). 40mm is the same for 25mm (12), with 25mm's for 20mm units (6)


That... is not a good thing. Missing from half to nearly a whole rank for 20mm's, to pretty much or over a full rank with 25mm. While it will be effective for stuff like Dark Elves and High Elves, this is bad for 25mm armies that would require such to make their troops effective (Orcs, Gors, some Marauders).

Worse, since it's "extra ranks = stubborn" and not "extra frontage", we're looking at what's essentially 3-9 (worst-to-best case scenario) for one unit, whereas the defenders get more ranks and stubborn.

Assuming equal size for instance, same models, same unit size, assuming a 40-man unit - enough to get 3 Ranks for the Horde, seven for the defenders. Defenders start the combat forcing the attackers to make an extra four wounds just to tie, and even if such is done any of such point's influence on combat resolution is nil unless they can kill some 21+ models while suffering less than 6 in turn.

Horde is going to be effective for stuff like Black Guard and other elite 20mm infantry, but when it comes to generic 20mm, skilled 25mm, or - worse of all - generic 25mm, it's pretty much worthless when you could just take the extra ranks and become an anvil.

Karon wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:
Ozymandias have you heard any word on O&G book?

Nothing other than historical precedent. It's always (well, last few editions anyway) been one of the first 3 books released after a new edition. And with the current state of the book's power level I wouldn't be surprised if we see it before Tomb Kings, Brettonia, OK, etc.

GW already announced O&G are the next book - I got the email weeks ago.

Did you bother to read it?

It said new figures - river trolls and boar boyz. Nothing else.

Must've misread it. My bad.

Minsc wrote:Problem with horde people tend to miss: Armies that can't take it reliably but do like unlimited ranks and are already good enough with their normal front can easily counter it - five-wide front / three ride Ogres. If 25mm bases, you miss out on 9 attacking models (if on 20mm bases) or 6 if on 20mm. If 20mm you miss out on either 12 attacking models (25mm) or 9 attacking models (20mm). 40mm is the same for 25mm (12), with 25mm's for 20mm units (6)


That... is not a good thing. Missing from half to nearly a whole rank for 20mm's, to pretty much or over a full rank with 25mm. While it will be effective for stuff like Dark Elves and High Elves, this is bad for 25mm armies that would require such to make their troops effective (Orcs, Gors, some Marauders).

Worse, since it's "extra ranks = stubborn" and not "extra frontage", we're looking at what's essentially 3-9 (worst-to-best case scenario) for one unit, whereas the defenders get more ranks and stubborn.

Assuming equal size for instance, same models, same unit size, assuming a 40-man unit - enough to get 3 Ranks for the Horde, seven for the defenders. Defenders start the combat forcing the attackers to make an extra four wounds just to tie, and even if such is done any of such point's influence on combat resolution is nil unless they can kill some 21+ models while suffering less than 6 in turn.

Horde is going to be effective for stuff like Black Guard and other elite 20mm infantry, but when it comes to generic 20mm, skilled 25mm, or - worse of all - generic 25mm, it's pretty much worthless when you could just take the extra ranks and become an anvil.

So wait, is WFB the kind of game where quality matters over quantity, or is it more like 40k where you're liable to lose expensive models with relative ease? As someone who plays now, do you think that the new rules (like one save only bonus attacking ranks, etc) will skew it toward horde armies like Skaven?

I ask because I was going to start a Skaven army when the starter comes out.

Quality matters over quantity. You charge a unit of 40 Empire Swordsmen after 10 Chaos Warriors next edition, Swordsmen 5 x 8, the static resolution is 9-2 or 10-1 depending on who charged who. Not too bad, until the Chaos Warriors attack and get some 6-9-12 wounds (HW&S / two hand-weapon OR MoK / MoK & two hand-weapon, respectively) before the Swordsmen strike. Or the Swordsmen just got their asses handed to them, with anywhere between only being ahead by 3 points now (vanilla Chaos Warriors) to being beaten - on their own charge - by some 3 points.

This is not to say that quality cannot be overcome with quantity - it's much more likely now with the infinite ranks rumor - but as it stands right now with Skaven your best bet for combat victory is either combination charges, static resolution, or having characters do the wounding for you. It isn't like 40k, wherein if you buy a 30 man unit to charge the eight man tactical squad and you charge you can possibly get all them to attack. It's more like having the thirty man unit charge and getting seven of them to attack - in new initiative rules after the enemy has already struck themselves.

I've been wondering how they will establish who holds an objective?


Something I was thinking, the rumour is that only units with banners can take objectives. I wonder if an uncontested objective is 'held' by a unit without a banner whether they would get it? Needs to have at least minimum unit size to hold

Then they could say that if you have a contested objective, if one unit has a benner they can claim it outright.

But if both have banner, or both do not..? Ideas?

The unit with the most models gets the objective? Yes, 21 goblins would beat 20 CW this way, but hey, it does encourage bigger blocks of infantry.

Just to let you guys know, at some point in the next day or two I am going to be doing a huge update to the first post. Half of it will be green...

I'm having to run the changes by some people, as a lot of them are quite controversial and I'd rather try and get them close first time around.

Something you may find interesting, I have been told that units fighting in 2 ranks may not always be the same regardless of which side they are attacked on.

I didn't really understand the way it was described, so I need further clarification.

Just a heads up that the blackshirt at my GW said that "Fighting until someone breaks" was not only not discredited, but said that they saw it is the Rulebook.

If true, well, gak.

I'll say that as an avid Warhammer player, having played in multiple GT events and other tourney circuits with the most competitive armies around, I for one am absolutely psyched about this new edition of Warhammer!

Warhammer Fantasy really needs this. Around here the current edition is almost completely house ruled because otherwise it would be unplayable competitively. The scene is stagnant, the same power builds dominate and players have to artificially generate hurdles for the usual suspects so that people with other armies would have a snowball's chance in hell to even avoid getting massacred. It's obvious that the new edition will change everything. There won't be a single competive army that doesn't have to replace 80% or more of its models with new ones, and looks like the balance of power will shift from Daemons towards other armies. It's not that anything in the rumours necessarily indicates that DoC or VC or DE are bad, but it makes them a lot more tolerable and other armies a lot stronger. Like I said, I'm anticipating this release more than any GW release in a long time, and will be building a core-heavy Dark Elf army once the new edition is out.

Minsc wrote:Just a heads up that the blackshirt at my GW said that "Fighting until someone breaks" was not only not discredited, but said that they saw it is the Rulebook.

If true, well, gak.

We are flakked.

"Fighting until someone breaks"

What does that mean, exactly. The combat will constantly be gone over each turn until nobody is in combat any more? As in, we run through initiative and then do it again if nobody breaks?

Or are there ways to choose to break from combat in WFB that would now be eliminated?

Ostrakon wrote:"Fighting until someone breaks"

What does that mean, exactly. The combat will constantly be gone over each turn until nobody is in combat any more? As in, we run through initiative and then do it again if nobody breaks?

Or are there ways to choose to break from combat in WFB that would now be eliminated?

As in ohnoes!! You know, right? Ohnoes!! Yeah, they have no damn clue.

some redshirt at my flgs told me today that you just roll 1d6 and add the number of ranks you have to see who wins.
he also said there will be an expansion with a giant 1d6 in a box with an updated rulebook. both players roll the die and whoever rolls the highest wins. the cool part is they have a specific die for every army and you have to assemble and paint the die yourself but he said he hears the blue painted dice are overpowered.

Ostrakon wrote:"Fighting until someone breaks"

What does that mean, exactly. The combat will constantly be gone over each turn until nobody is in combat any more? As in, we run through initiative and then do it again if nobody breaks?

Or are there ways to choose to break from combat in WFB that would now be eliminated?

As in "When it comes to the combat phase, [1]roll your attacks as normal. If the unit(s) that lose isn't / aren't wiped out, [2]roll leadership as normal. If they do not break, go back to [1] and repeat [1] and [2]. Keep doing this until either one unit is dead, or one unit is broken and fleeing. Then move onto the next combat."

This is bad, because flanking can be a big thing in WHFB at times as well as other factors such as bogging down an enemy unit (can you imagine how much fun it'll be to have something like, say, Ld.10 stubborn Iron Breakers v Ld. 9 Stubborn Chaos Warriors w/ HW&S in hand to hand? Rolling that out over and over and over again?).

Minsc wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:"Fighting until someone breaks"

What does that mean, exactly. The combat will constantly be gone over each turn until nobody is in combat any more? As in, we run through initiative and then do it again if nobody breaks?

Or are there ways to choose to break from combat in WFB that would now be eliminated?

As in "When it comes to the combat phase, [1]roll your attacks as normal. If the unit(s) that lose isn't / aren't wiped out, [2]roll leadership as normal. If they do not break, go back to [1] and repeat [1] and [2]. Keep doing this until either one unit is dead, or one unit is broken and fleeing. Then move onto the next combat."

This is bad, because flanking can be a big thing in WHFB at times as well as other factors such as bogging down an enemy unit (can you imagine how much fun it'll be to have something like, say, Ld.10 stubborn Iron Breakers v Ld. 9 Stubborn Chaos Warriors w/ HW&S in hand to hand? Rolling that out over and over and over again?).

That certainly sounds... odd. A system like that also sounds like it could really result in hordes having a huge advantage, thanks to 1 save/model and sheer number of attacks

Ostrakon wrote:

Minsc wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:"Fighting until someone breaks"

What does that mean, exactly. The combat will constantly be gone over each turn until nobody is in combat any more? As in, we run through initiative and then do it again if nobody breaks?

Or are there ways to choose to break from combat in WFB that would now be eliminated?

As in "When it comes to the combat phase, [1]roll your attacks as normal. If the unit(s) that lose isn't / aren't wiped out, [2]roll leadership as normal. If they do not break, go back to [1] and repeat [1] and [2]. Keep doing this until either one unit is dead, or one unit is broken and fleeing. Then move onto the next combat."

This is bad, because flanking can be a big thing in WHFB at times as well as other factors such as bogging down an enemy unit (can you imagine how much fun it'll be to have something like, say, Ld.10 stubborn Iron Breakers v Ld. 9 Stubborn Chaos Warriors w/ HW&S in hand to hand? Rolling that out over and over and over again?).

That certainly sounds... odd. A system like that also sounds like it could really result in hordes having a huge advantage, thanks to 1 save/model and sheer number of attacks

Stubborn results in no leadership penalties. Several of the armies that have the best armor saves also have the best leadership, resulting in stuff such as units of Hammerers wherein they're Leadership 10 Stubborn (or, worse of all, within BSB range too which means re-rolling failed Break tests). Meaning some units are going to have to pretty much be eradicated completely, which - when combined with good saves - means a lot of wiffle-bat whacking.

Don't get me wrong, it won't happen all the time. It's just that it has the potential to get extremely long and tedious, and I pity the poor combat engagement of "Block of Chaos Warriors of Nurgle" against "Block of Dwarven Ironbreakers with Lord and / or BSB within 12"". Heck, if true then any unit featuring Gorbad has the potential to be pure hell (imagine 60 Goblins made Ld10 with re-rolls to their break checks and very likely to get the Stubborn bonus). That's just one of the more noticeable flaws, as it could make some of even the simplest (sans-character) combats result in a ten-plus minute engagement.

Blackshirts know nothing! He reads the boards and is screwing with you cause it'll make him laugh.

Fighting forever is pretty silly.. That would mean movement would mean almost nothing since flanking a unit already in combat would prove totally impossible unless you multiple charge the SAME unengaged unit from each direction... which usually means youre already doing very well regardless

Cant say I buy that

That can't be true.

It just can't

If it is, that literally ruins WHFB.

If it is (I am 99% sure it isn't), I'm going to have to convince the 40k players to let me use my beastmen on square bases as ork boyz.

A fairly major update. I've tried to get all the new things in green, though I may have missed a couple.

Grimstonefire wrote:[*]Lore of Fire: If the enemy suffered a from a fire lore spell earlier this magic phase, the caster is granted a Bonus of +3 when casting a fire spell upon the same target.

REALLY?! I can see every HE army bringing a Dragon Mage with Gem of Sunfire if true(because they really need a +5 to cast).

Also, if the Allies rules are true and they only apply to multiplayer games, I wouldn't be surprised if that means Legendary Battles rules are in the back of the book.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Must've misread it. My bad.

may bed bugs bug you all night

Grimstonefire wrote:A fairly major update. I've tried to get all the new things in green, though I may have missed a couple.

Big update indeed, thank you for that!
I was wondering something about hordes imagine 30 nightgobbos archers, the normal rule for shooters would be 20 shots but if they are 10 wide they would fire 30 shots?

I hope I'm missing something but simple double 6s lead to a chart where the results are that bad? Why would you ever cast magic when doubles of 1 number aren't that rare?

@NAVARRO
The ranks for shooting are not clear.

The horde rule does not apply evenly to all types of attack I believe.

How it was described to me before is that if the unit with bows is 10 wide, it may have +5 shots for each rank after the second.

Which seems a very strange way to work it out... So I have not added it to the sticky (yet)

Okay, I'm totally confused on the CR issue. There IS a cap on Rank Bonus? Or no?

@Grimstonefire:
1.) Vampires are missing in allies lit. My guess: Destruction. Tomb Kings really neutral?
2.) Several typos with html, please check.
3.) You should really change the second colour from black (called orange in the text) to something else.

Any news on how to fill 500+ pages? Can't be all missions. Does it include rules updates for each army (like HE ignore percentages etc.)

Kroothawk wrote:
Any news on how to fill 500+ pages? Can't be all missions. Does it include rules updates for each army (like HE ignore percentages etc.)

It has to have some etra or something to fix all the issues that will pop up with these possible changes.

Kroothawk wrote:
Any news on how to fill 500+ pages? Can't be all missions. Does it include rules updates for each army (like HE ignore percentages etc.)

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Grimstonefire wrote:@NAVARRO
The ranks for shooting are not clear.

The horde rule does not apply evenly to all types of attack I believe.

How it was described to me before is that if the unit with bows is 10 wide, it may have +5 shots for each rank after the second.

Which seems a very strange way to work it out... So I have not added it to the sticky (yet)

Ok thanks again for the heads up.
Very interesting a 50 goblins unit would shoot 20+5+5+5 arrows.