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kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour

Stormtroopers lost to Ewoks
SM would not

Dingdoodah wrote:

kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour

No. That is an unfair comparison. stormtroopers equal Imperial guardsmen. Space marines, however, are more like an army of ripped jango fetts that spit acid, wear power armor, and have walking coffins armed to the teef.

What storm troopers we talking about? The elite clones I say would be a step up from Guardsmen but a step below Marines. Obviously the Marines have way more genetic modifications and augmentations, but the clones were also genetically engineered for combat. They were also trained since birth (err, birth? or do you say like creation date?) in the arts of combat, and genetically predisposed to being warriors. Now at the same time, they were also made for quantity over quality, but with quality also being kept in mind.

A Space Marine would stomp the ever living snot out of a bunch of storm troopers.

Soladrin wrote:Someone should draw 40k Guts...

I want to see a dude with a 5 meter chainsword, and a powerfist with mounted Battle Cannon.

This I want to see.

The Jedi didn't do so hot againsed the clone troopers, and they are no match for a space marine........

What is it exactly that people have against reading the thread and processing the information within it before posting? Everyone likes bringing up that the Jedi lost to Storm Troopers in the movies, but conveniently forgets (or ignores) the several posts others have made saying the Jedi at the time of the movies were considerably weaker than they should have been due to being out-of-touch with the force. It's a poor comparison and a poor representation of the Jedi, when you consider the realm of works outside of the movies.

b1soul wrote:

kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour

Stormtroopers lost to Ewoks
SM would not

This is something else I find curious. A New Hope/Empire Strikes Back/Return of the Jedi, the storm troopers were by and large worthless as anything other than a tarpit, and couldn't hit the broad side of a land raider. But in Clone Wars, they were crack shots and somewhat badass. Surely I'm not the only one who sees something wrong with this picture.

Soladrin wrote:Someone should draw 40k Guts...

I want to see a dude with a 5 meter chainsword, and a powerfist with mounted Battle Cannon.

Please see this thread.

Not sure how a tactical squad would do agains "psykers" but how about Thousand Sons, or Demons, Grey Knights, or evening it out a bit toss in some Primarchs

THE JEDI ARE GOING TO GET DESTROYED INSTANTLY! A clone like Boba Fett or his normal human father Jango woop jedi for fun. Now image what a super human space marine would do. Even in 1vs1 they would be able to kill jedi.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:This is something else I find curious. A New Hope/Empire Strikes Back/Return of the Jedi, the storm troopers were by and large worthless as anything other than a tarpit, and couldn't hit the broad side of a land raider. But in Clone Wars, they were crack shots and somewhat badass. Surely I'm not the only one who sees something wrong with this picture.

After the clone wars, eventually they stopped ordering clones for the sake of saving money and recruited from the population. They poorly trained tehm and poorly equipped them-- only the most prestigious and elite stormtrooper units stayed purely clone.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:What is it exactly that people have against reading the thread and processing the information within it before posting? Everyone likes bringing up that the Jedi lost to Storm Troopers in the movies, but conveniently forgets (or ignores) the several posts others have made saying the Jedi at the time of the movies were considerably weaker than they should have been due to being out-of-touch with the force. It's a poor comparison and a poor representation of the Jedi, when you consider the realm of works outside of the movies.

How do you explain Jango Fett's trouncing of 4 lightsabre-wielding Jedi?
Jango was practically unarmed except for a rock. Pictures are on the previous page.

kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour

You are not to much into 40k are you?
They are a lot more then mere solders, they are masters of all warfare.
And they were able to defeat such threats that would make even Jedi piss his pants ( Chaos spawns ).

b1soul wrote:

CiaranAnnrach wrote:What is it exactly that people have against reading the thread and processing the information within it before posting? Everyone likes bringing up that the Jedi lost to Storm Troopers in the movies, but conveniently forgets (or ignores) the several posts others have made saying the Jedi at the time of the movies were considerably weaker than they should have been due to being out-of-touch with the force. It's a poor comparison and a poor representation of the Jedi, when you consider the realm of works outside of the movies.

How do you explain Jango Fett's trouncing of 4 lightsabre-wielding Jedi?
Jango was practically unarmed except for a rock. Pictures are on the previous page.

Jango Fett lived at the time of the movies, when they were considerably weaker than they should have been. Even though the comic came prior to the movies, I doubt the overall decline in the Jedi's power happened within a single generation.

If you pitted Jango Fett against the Jedi a few thousand years prior, or a few generations afterwards, I doubt that fight would have ended up as it did - when the Jedi were more in-touch with the force and considerably stronger.

b1soul wrote:

kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour

Stormtroopers lost to Ewoks
SM would not

Lmao, very good point! Still, chuck enough enough Gretchin at a bunch o' marines... maybe...

I have so many arguements in my head that could, maybe help you to see where I'm coming from, but I'm struggling to put them on to this post whilst ensuring that they make sense...

- Storm Troopers are clones of one persons abilities, marines have organs that are clones of one persons abilities
- Storm Troopers were brought in to defeat and replace the droid army, Marines were brought in to replace standard troopers and trounce everything they could and be the first in to the fray, blah blah blah
- Comparable strategy between both 'characters'

Back on the Jedi vs Marine topic and away from the Storm Trooper / Marine character comparison arguement (which I acknowledge that I brought about) -

- Light saber would vapourise bolter rounds
- Jedi's in pyjamas move with a greater amount of stealth than marines in clunking power armour
- Jedi mind tricks would work on standard marines

Imagine that I'm a Jedi, round a corner, see you, force choke, break your neck which severs all brain activity... done imho.

Any body fancy pitching a 1v1 arena battle of SM Librarian, with no guns and damn strong ccw vs normal marine with bolter? That may help us to pitch the various skills against each other. I would, but don't have the codex's for them.

Any chance of getting this as a poll so we can see a running tally of the # votes?

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
If you pitted Jango Fett against the Jedi a few thousand years prior, or a few generations afterwards, I doubt that fight would have ended up as it did - when the Jedi were more in-touch with the force and considerably stronger.

perhaps, but that fight occurred when Count Dooku was young (the Jedi who says "what have we done")
could you please provide quotes to support your theory that the Jedi were weak because they were out of touch with the Force?

kitch102 wrote:Light saber would vapourise bolter rounds

in WH40k, bolt rounds are described as mini rocket propelled grenades
the last thing you'd want to do is "block" bolt rounds with your lightsabre

let's say an explosive rocket is flying toward you, would you want to "block" it with your lightsabre? no...it would explode in your face

Imagine that I'm a Jedi, round a corner, see you, force choke, break your neck which severs all brain activity... done imho.

frankly, if Jedi were that powerful, they wouldn't have died in droves during Order 66

kitch102 wrote:

b1soul wrote:

kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour

Stormtroopers lost to Ewoks
SM would not

Lmao, very good point! Still, chuck enough enough Gretchin at a bunch o' marines... maybe...

I have so many arguements in my head that could, maybe help you to see where I'm coming from, but I'm struggling to put them on to this post whilst ensuring that they make sense...

- Storm Troopers are clones of one persons abilities, marines have organs that are clones of one persons abilities
- Storm Troopers were brought in to defeat and replace the droid army, Marines were brought in to replace standard troopers and trounce everything they could and be the first in to the fray, blah blah blah
- Comparable strategy between both 'characters'

Back on the Jedi vs Marine topic and away from the Storm Trooper / Marine character comparison arguement (which I acknowledge that I brought about) -

- Light saber would vapourise bolter rounds
- Jedi's in pyjamas move with a greater amount of stealth than marines in clunking power armour
- Jedi mind tricks would work on standard marines

Imagine that I'm a Jedi, round a corner, see you, force choke, break your neck which severs all brain activity... done imho.

Any body fancy pitching a 1v1 arena battle of SM Librarian, with no guns and damn strong ccw vs normal marine with bolter? That may help us to pitch the various skills against each other. I would, but don't have the codex's for them.

Any chance of getting this as a poll so we can see a running tally of the # votes?

Did you even read the thread all those points were argued and refuted. Bolter rounds explode in contact with lightsabre shrapnel hit jedi jedi dies. Power armor does not slow down Marines due to back pack and black carapace, why it is called power armor is because it is powered armor. Marines go through years of training to fight of demons and Xenos tricks, mind tricks work on the weak minded, not even working well on clones.

Storm Troopers are soldiers comparining them to genetically engineered super soldiers like marines is ridiculous. Space Marines do not have the same stategy as they are shock troops taking no part in wars of attrition like normal soldiers, they also have better equipment, training, and abilities.

Nicholas wrote:

Storm Troopers are soldiers comparining them to genetically engineered super soldiers like marines is ridiculous. Space Marines do not have the same stategy as they are shock troops taking no part in wars of attrition like normal soldiers, they also have better equipment, training, and abilities.

And comparing Space Marines and Jedi is not ridiculous? For all the reasons you just stated?

It was fun for a while, but this thread should probably die soon, I was just kinda mad that they are repeating arguments already said.

Nicholas wrote:It was fun for a while, but this thread should probably die soon, I was just kinda mad that they are repeating arguments already said.

Most people don't read a thread that's two posts long, let alone this many pages.

if the entire jedi order was up against equal numbers of Space marines on open ground about 1K away from each other then the space marines would win hands down. The lightsabers wouldn't be able to block the bolter shots because it would just go straight through it. Even if the lightsaber managed to melt the bolter shot then it would explode and kill the jedi anyway

b1soul wrote:

perhaps, but that fight occurred when Count Dooku was young (the Jedi who says "what have we done")
could you please provide quotes to support your theory that the Jedi were weak because they were out of touch with the Force?

The argument was made several times earlier in the thread, and posted some evidence there. I'm not going to repeat it here. This is why I said that people seem to have a hard time reading the entire thread prior to posting.

As a clarification, I really don't care who would win in a fight. I just don't like this attitude of ignoring what others have posted, either consciously or because they didn't bother to read it. If people actually read the thread, we wouldn't still be getting "oh, but jedi lost to storm troopers!" posts 17 pages in, when that point has been contested several times now without an adequate response to it.

in WH40k, bolt rounds are described as mini rocket propelled grenades

Didn't know that - cheers

frankly, if Jedi were that powerful, they wouldn't have died in droves during Order 66

Thing is that they are that powerful, they just didn't know about the betrayal. Pretty sure there's a Horus comparison here somewhere... Like the Emperor being practically dead, and the Marine legions being weakened / disbanded, comparably to how the Jedi order was snuffed.

Did you even read the thread all those points were argued and refuted. Bolter rounds explode in contact with lightsabre shrapnel hit jedi jedi dies. Power armor does not slow down Marines due to back pack and black carapace, why it is called power armor is because it is powered armor. Marines go through years of training to fight of demons and Xenos tricks, mind tricks work on the weak minded, not even working well on clones.

Storm Troopers are soldiers comparining them to genetically engineered super soldiers like marines is ridiculous. Space Marines do not have the same stategy as they are shock troops taking no part in wars of attrition like normal soldiers, they also have better equipment, training, and abilities.

Do you mean - did I read 16 entire pages before I posted? Honestly, no I didn't. Have you ever tried that? I tried, got lost in my own thoughouts and arguements and decided that I'd post my views. If anyone cares enough that I didn't read 16 pages before putting my 10 pence worth forward then ban me from this site, or politely say - "Gone over that, check out page 'whatever' mate".

It does me tree in how people get so up in arms about this !

Now, back on point. Mind tricks would work on Marines, they frequently do if you read through the Horus Heresy series. I'm not able to refer to one particular instance, but given that the Thousand Sons were a Legion of ing Psykers, I'm pretty sure you'll find something there. Then factor in all the special equipment available to every army in the 40k Universe that affects a unit / models ability to fight (the DE have a mask that stops people attacking if they fail a Ld test as one example) then I'm sure that I have another strong arguement for this pointless bloody debate.

On the power armour point, I wasn't saying that the armour makes them slow moving, but is it loud? Ummmm...hmmm... yes I think it is! Would you hear it coming from a way off? Pretty sure you would! That was the point I was making.

And comparing Space Marines and Jedi is not ridiculous? For all the reasons you just stated?

Cheers Nerivant.

The Jedi order is akin to a chapter full of librarians, each of which has the same martial skill as a standard marine but with a nice little something extra, minus the 'as standard' ranged capabilities, granted, though don't forget that there's nothing stopping a Jedi picking up a bolter / equivalent (as Obi Wan did vs General Grievous) or force throwing some ruddy great rock at your thick ass SM skull. A standard Marine can't just 'pick up a force power' in the same manner, ergo the JEdi has skills of equal or slightly greater power and the ability to do everything a Marine does. Sure, the Marine is tougher due to armour, but the Jedi is, ultimately, a sprinting, cart wheeling, mile high jumping, tank busting, army destroying son-of-a-bitch.

Good thing SM bolter's aren't of a bigger calibre then normal ones and wouldn't break your arm when fired.... oh wait.

Then there's the whole thing of stealth because of power armor.

Go read up on Night lords and Raven Guard please.

Soladrin wrote:Good thing SM bolter's aren't of a bigger calibre then normal ones and wouldn't break your arm when fired.... oh wait.

Just about the first thing taught to Jedi is how to channel the Force through them to increase their physical abilities.

What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?

If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?

sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?

If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?

Toydarians. Like a handful of other species, their minds are too alien for most Jedi to influence.

sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?

If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?

Lol! Brilliant!

Watto the Toydarian I think he was called, his race was immune to psychic powers. They'd work on Marine's as the 40k Universe allows psychic powers to be used on Marines.

sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?

If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?

Who are also 9 feet tall and very very musclar and have a very high IQ and also learn and read books for gods sakes. They are monks basically that still retain social knowledge. Not dim witted Storm Troopers.

Asherian Command wrote:

sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?

If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?

Who are also 9 feet tall and very very musclar and have a very high IQ and also learn and read books for gods sakes. They are monks basically that still retain social knowledge. Not dim witted Storm Troopers.

Stormtroopers undergo extensive indoctrination, perhaps even deeper than Space Marines undergo. They quite resistant to mind affecting powers, possibly even more than a Space Marine would be.

Actually I think the space marine libraian is more powerful then a jedi. Librains are constantly on guard against being corrupted by chaos. Do some all yes just like some jedi fall to the "dark side". The difference being Chaos are a group of Gods while the dark side is more akin to the darkest desires in everybody. Plus seeing as how space marines battle deamons and manage to pull out plenty of wins then jedi really won't give them much trouble. Black templars will simply yell "Burn the witch" and be done with it.

Nerivant wrote:Stormtroopers undergo extensive indoctrination, perhaps even deeper than Space Marines undergo. They quite resistant to mind affecting powers, possibly even more than a Space Marine would be.

Episode 4, scene when ben and luke approach the town. Yes, ben was a master, but you were thinking about clone troopers anyway, and there is a difference other than c-troopers being clones.