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Yeah, that's the part where I always get lost in these SPAZ MREEN VS X threads.
The distinction invariably comes down to 'X' being faster, having special magic powers, being some sort of ninja, and therefore able to trump Marines by throat-punching them to death from fifty feet away.
But Eldar can do all that stuff. They are, quite literally, magical super ninjas with super armor and shields. And, by majority accounts, outnumbered Space Marines plow straight through them.
Yes, ELdar are basically psychic space elf ninjas.
edit: before anyone thinks I'm bashing them: AND IT IS AWESOME!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/22 18:25:49
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
ctlc wrote:Dear exterminatus... meet the deathstar. GG
Quite frankly, the Deathstar blows compared to Exterminatus.
yeah, it can totally obliterate a planet, but that is one space station that can only be in one place at one time.
Exterminatus can be carried out by any ship with Torpedo tubes. which is practically all of them.
and if the planet itself has to be destroyed, and not just every living thing down to viruses, there are Clyclonic torpedos which do basically the same thing the Deathstar does.
There are plenty ships in the SW universe that can destroy the surface of planets and all life on them, the death star can actually destroy the planet outright and the sun crusher can destroy whole systems. The sun crusher is a small fast ship too. It could zip in and out of systems and drop torpedoes in the sun and white dwarf them, destroying the whole system.
Then again, I guess this is going off topic since it is strictly Jedi Vs Marines and not Star Wars versus 40K...
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the Eldar!
Honestly it should be psyker vs jedi anyway. It's like you're arguing "what's better, a squad of USMC or a Leopard tank?"
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote:Do the Space Marines have heavy weapons?
Do the space marines all have power weapons. Are the jedi blind? Are the jedi black? are the jedi holding a double light saber?
Do the space marines have a oribital bombardment array? These questions should be answered. Plus a space marine never travels alone.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Luke Skywalker Vs. a Master Librarian, versus Mike Ditka....
Who would win?
I will say that when you try to use the canon argument that only the movies count as what the Jedi are, it is invalid. There is so much more (and better in my opinion) material that makes up the Star Wars Universe. The video games have better story lines. Lucas is a horrible writer, and totally misses the points he was trying to make. So, when you take the better story, the more in depth character development along the framework Lucas made, you should just consider it. The movies represent Jedi who are weak with the force, since they have lost touch. Even at the end Yoda realizes this, and Yoda realizes that wen you die, you don't actually die in the classical sense, that you become one with the Force. In the second movie when Anakin is killing those tuskan raiders, Yoda was meditating and heard Qi Gon Gin's voice yell, "Anakin Noooo!." Yoda, then started to realize the Jedi had lost touch with the force. He realize they could come back. This is why when Yoda and Obiwan die they disappear instead of just rotting corpses. Yoda taught this trick to Obiwan, and of course Vader discovered it on his own in his meditation chamber.
No other Jedi or sith disappear when they die but them. This represents how they lost touch with the force. It also coincides with Exar Kun, who also knew this and his spirit comes back 1,000 years later and influences one of Luke's students into delving into the dark side, and he eventually possesses Luke himself. This is all the intention of Lucas but since his writing skills are that of a high schooler at best, it is hard to piece this all together.
So, while that may not be canon in some opinions, it sure as hell fits into the canon story line, which Lucas approved. If I cared enough more I would google to dig up the interview from the guy at Lucas Arts that goes into how every third party comic, book, animated, series and so forth is Lucas approved, and licensed.
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the Eldar!
Actually, Yoda himself learned the trick from Qui-Gon.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
So to beat a dead horse/thread, talking to the local star wars geek at work, he tells me that everything under Lucas books is canon, and including the 13 book series where Chewbacca dies. Which relies on every other book for it's back story. So, there is some canon in it.....
Now FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the Eldar!
Crom wrote:So to beat a dead horse/thread, talking to the local star wars geek at work, he tells me that everything under Lucas books is canon, and including the 13 book series where Chewbacca dies. Which relies on every other book for it's back story. So, there is some canon in it.....
Now FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!
Well, if all that is canon, than the canon is simply contradictory.
It's a classic "fanboy"-affliction to "rationalize" the flaws inherent in your favorite pet-universe with a self-made, "superiour" vision that may or may not be hidden within the material. You see it all the time in 40K too. It's a beautiful thing actually, as it shows capacity to focus on the "good" and .. well .. improvise on the "less good" to draw the most possible enjoyment from a past-time. But trying to build a valid argument from what you believe may have been implied is a ticket to disappointment.
Whether or not some odd spin-off book or not is "canon" is fairly irrelevant. No marketing-expert would ever flaunt something as explicitly "non-canon". It still remains that the navel of the Star Wars franchise are the movies. It is a highly visual creation born from the narrative fundus of hollywood storytelling. You cannot simply "disregard" the movies by arguing that some other author has captured the "true vision" of Lucas better than Lucas himself might have. If anything, say that you enjoy the spin-off work more.
And Lucas is well known to be a control-freak. He is not a talent-less high school student either. Trust that everything you see in the movies is 100% as intended by Lucas. No "missing the target due to bad experssion" involved. And this cinematic vision of George Lucas, which admittedly follows the need of cinematic narration, reguires, in the name of creating suspense, that Jedi, even advanced ones, are "challenged" by things like Jango Fett, a fierce intergalactic beast or "nasty Droidicas". To say those are insignificant threats to a Jedi would be foolish, because they were created solely for the purpose of creating a challenge for the Jedi in the story. Thus, this sets the "intended" power-level for the Jedi as, fully intended and perfectly implemented, by the vision of George Lucas.
I guess books are now published by Lucas Books, and they are canonized as being legit in the SW universe and have been for some time. The argument came down to, all the people that were for the marines claiming that Jedi are weak in the movies and everything else is non canon, which is not true (or so I am told).
This also applies to 40K, where as if the fluff for the Marines were really 100% true, how could any other race in the 40K universe even hold up to them, besides maybe Chaos?
Again, I could care less who wins, but enjoy the conversation. I am just pointing out the books, comics, and video games are in fact, canon. I have to honestly disagree with you. Lucas, like many people in a creative power position has tunnel vision, and sees things unilaterally, and I think he writes his stories like crap. The movies he did not direct or write are the best ones, where he was just executive producer. It really isn't an insult to his intelligence, more so his creative developing skills. I don't think intelligence has much to do with writing science fiction, at least they aren't mutually exclusive. You didn't see Einstein writing fiction, or Steven Hawking writing space science fiction novels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/25 15:34:33
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the Eldar!
Crom wrote:I guess books are now published by Lucas Books, and they are canonized as being legit in the SW universe and have been for some time. The argument came down to, all the people that were for the marines claiming that Jedi are weak in the movies and everything else is non canon, which is not true (or so I am told).
This also applies to 40K, where as if the fluff for the Marines were really 100% true, how could any other race in the 40K universe even hold up to them, besides maybe Chaos?
But 40K makes no claim to coherency. Back in an interview on his script for the 40K movie, Dan Abnett actually went on record how the BL were lobbying and bullying GW management for a while until they specifically got the green-light to deviate from the "official" fluff (e.g. the games, codexes, etc..) to accommodate the different needs of creating a story in a different medium (e.g. a novel, comic, or later a movie). They actually, purposefully create "different visions" of the same core IP.
On the other hand, assuming all SW products are truly intended to be a singular, non-contradictory version of the same thing, than they've failed. Jedi are significantly weaker in the movies than they are in many books or comics. If these contradictions are "canon", than the label "canon" itself becomes irrelevant because it covers contradictory and mutually exclusive elements.
Crom wrote:I guess books are now published by Lucas Books, and they are canonized as being legit in the SW universe and have been for some time. The argument came down to, all the people that were for the marines claiming that Jedi are weak in the movies and everything else is non canon, which is not true (or so I am told).
This also applies to 40K, where as if the fluff for the Marines were really 100% true, how could any other race in the 40K universe even hold up to them, besides maybe Chaos?
But 40K makes no claim to coherency. Back in an interview on his script for the 40K movie, Dan Abnett actually went on record how the BL were lobbying and bullying GW management for a while until they specifically got the green-light to deviate from the "official" fluff (e.g. the games, codexes, etc..) to accommodate the different needs of creating a story in a different medium (e.g. a novel, comic, or later a movie). They actually, purposefully create "different visions" of the same core IP.
On the other hand, assuming all SW products are truly intended to be a singular, non-contradictory version of the same thing, than they've failed. Jedi are significantly weaker in the movies than they are in many books or comics. If these contradictions are "canon", than the label "canon" itself becomes irrelevant because it covers contradictory and mutually exclusive elements.
See, actually it is intended that the Jedi in the movies are weaker. This is why Lucas is a bad writer. There are references to this in the books, which are canonized. The Jedi of the movies became too reliant on technology, science, and social things, and lost touch with the force. Midichlorians are not the defining factor of the force, rather a side effect. This is why the Sith so easily infiltrated the Republic and went unnoticed. Whenever a Jedi are near each other they can sense their presence, they can also sense if they are light or dark Jedi. The most powerful Jedi of the council during the movies were even trumped, Yoda himself only realized this after he heard Qui Gon Gin's voice in the 2nd movie.
It is not contradictory, it is suppose to be like that. That is why the Jedi and the Sith in the great war (which is canon for the video game The Old Republic due out soon) are much more powerful. The Jedi of the movies sat in 1000 years of peace. Even the Roman Empire fell due to it's long time in peace, and the choices the rulers made. During the war they were much more in tune with the Force, which is why when the sith get with in proximity of the Jedi, the Jedi can sense them. Where as in the movies the Emperor easily infiltrates them and uses the dark side to pull his ruse on them. Building a scenario for war, having a clone army built, manipulating the Senate. If the Jedi hadn't lost touch with the force they should have picked up on these things and influences.
So, to sum it all up, the Jedi in the movies are remarkably weaker than the Jedi before and after them. This also ties in to how Anakin was suppose to "balance" the force. The Jedi lost touch, and since the Force is much like a religion, when you look at science and technology it tends to separate someone from their spirituality. These are all points Lucas was trying to make, but failed to do so.
Now, it has also been stated that even though Lucas canonized the books, comics, and movies, there is some sort of rating system on how much canon it is, and Lucas also says he reserves the right to change it. So, I guess you have to take it at it's current state until the man (Lucas that is) decides to put out more movies.
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the Eldar!
Jedi in the movies still die like chumps to the equivalent of 6 Kasrkin (Operation 66 Clone Troopers just gun them down like LOLWUT). A Space Marine, primarily due to armor, would kill his way right through a whole squad of clones and keep on going (and this isn't Fanboy talk, if Clone Trooper = power armored Kasrkin sergeant then the 40k fiction is rife with accounts of Space Marines killing through dozens of elite human troopers before being brought down). And again, this is the average Marine. The Operation 66 troopers were gunning down some pretty elite, near-character Jedi. Not Anakin or Yoda level, but definitely not Random Force Pud #3, either.
Character Jedi, with layers and layers of ablative plot-armor, fare much better and no doubt can kill infinite numbers of D00Dz before running out of steam. Character Space Marines, however, benefit from the same; Mace Windu has to chop his way through Calgar's Iron Halo, Crux Terminatus, redundant lung, and secondary heart before Calgar gives up the ghost. Calgar simply has to touch him with his Power Finger or any of the limitless bolter rounds spewing from his underslung storm shotguns to make Windu explode. Maybe Windu uses all his cooldowns and squeaks it, maybe he realizes Calgar is his spiritual liege, who knows.
Even if the movies are 'rong' and history Jedi are much more bettah, I still don't see that being enough of a multiple where the average Jedi is so vastly superior to their current portrayal that they go from dying to 6 D00Dz to killing entire cities with their Force one-ness.
Non-character Jedi need a significant upgrade to simply be on par with a single marine, and again armor plays a big role here; a single shot/strike slipping through a Jedi's defenses means he's nearly dead. Space Marines bounce small arms all day.
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
Though it does bear mention that, in the execution of Order 66, the majority of those Jedi killed were shot in the back. I can wipe out entire lances of tanks on the table-top with a single guy with a heavy weapon... who's standing behind the tanks.
A Kasrkin with a hellgun that caps a SM in the back of the head is going to have a dead, braincooked SM. Especially if the SM took his helmet off, again, to pose menacingly for "Aquilas & CogSkulls" magazine or something.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
I think some of you guys are seriously overrating Jedi here
yes, legendary Jedi Masters such as Yoda and Mace Windu would be way too much for a average SM to handle
but this thread is about average Jedi vs. average SM right?
average Jedi SUCK...the Order 66 (Jedi Purge) scenes in Revenge of the Sith show that Jedi CANNOT block anything and everything
if you watch from 1:10, the Jedi is Ki Adi Mundi (a Jedi council member)...he's only able to a block a few rapid-fire blaster shots before the clone troopers mow him down
an unarmed Jango Fett destroys 4 Jedi wielding lightsabres
an average SM would destroy an average Jedi
a more interesting battle would be between a powerful Jedi Master and a Chief Librarian (my money's on the Librarian)
I think Psyker vs. Jedi would be a better comparison anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goddard wrote:
/thread.
I SAID /THREAD DAMNIT!
Wait, is taht Guts from Berserk?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/31 02:00:13
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
Well if the fight gets too much the Jedi can take inspiraiton from their master and save their own skin by running and hiding on a swamp planet - and let the galaxy burn - at least he stays safe......
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
What.
No.
Stormtroopers are not powerful enough to crush a human skull in their bare, unaugmented hands. Nor do they have all the various abilities of the Astartes.
In fact, at the time of A New Hope, most stormtroopers were less effective and less trained and more poorly equipped than the Imperial Guard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Soladrin wrote:Someone should draw 40k Guts...
I want to see a dude with a 5 meter chainsword, and a powerfist with mounted Battle Cannon.
I'm gonna make a statline for him actually.... *heads off to proposed rules*
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/31 23:06:48
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
No. That is an unfair comparison. stormtroopers equal Imperial guardsmen. Space marines, however, are more like an army of ripped jango fetts that spit acid, wear power armor, and have walking coffins armed to the teef.
Apparently the Imperium is ill-equipped for a siege. Therefore I have proposed the development of siege guns, siege tanks, siege rockets, siege armor, siege planes, siege ships, siege wagons, siege bikes, siege boots, siege dogs, siege cats(for the siege rodents), siege eating utensils, siege horses, siege rations, and siege babies. Oh, and siege-spouses, especially of the female variant.
All is forgiven if repaid in Traitor's blood.
" -KingCracker
