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lindsay40k wrote:

4M2A wrote:I think 1 jedi= about 1 tactical squad.

The force does a lot to even it out. There are many ways a jedi could stop him/herself from being killed by bolters.

1. Stopping the SM for from shooting (or just making them shoot each other) with mind control. SMs have never gone against any kind of influence like this so we don't know if they could resist it. They are very loyal to their cause but when it comes to free thinking the SMs aren't great.

Lash of Submission? SM's spend decades being trained to resist Chaos, and yet if they have no Psychic Hood wielders to hand then they have a 100% failure rate in resisting mind control by Slaaneshi practitioners. SMs have no specific training in resisting Jedi powers.

That's table top this is a fluff war.

rodfarruguia wrote:Can't deflect bolter shells. Both can have swords that cut through anything.
Bolter marine> Jedi
Lass marine < Jedi

Um, yeah, you can. The bolter round is mass-reactive, which means the explosion is not triggered until it detects impact with a mass-bearing target over a certain limit (even air has mass, so it must have a minimum threshold, or it would explode immediately upon firing). So you can, with a lightsabre, just cut it in half in flight (being that the blade of a lightsabre is entirely weightless, for all intents and purposes and, specifically, not enough to trigger a boltgun's round) or, through the Force, just send it off-target to blow up in a wall or something.

Jedi mindtricks only work on the weak-minded. Space Marines are not weak-minded.

They work *best* on the weak-minded, but certain races are immune, to a greater or lesser degree, while others can be made to dance like puppets.

They can deflect boltshells with the force I think, probably not with the lightsaber though. I don't think he could block an entire squad of Tacticals on auto though that's pretty ridiculous.

I have never heard of a jedi blocking a round like a bolter. you only ever see them just barely blocking those stupid slow laser beam rifles or w/e from somewhat stupid droids.

Honestly i would say a single space marine would be a fair match for a single jedi if they start at range i give it to the space marine to shoot him down.
in close combat the jedi would have to take the win.

I don't even want to think about an entire squad of marines VS a Jedi. Jedi gets shot to death or trampled under the sheer might of the marines in close combat. who cares if he chops an arm or leg off or even a head. it only takes a single punch from just 1 of those marines to break the body of a jedi. that's like taking a sledge hammer to the face with more then a thousand pounds of force behind it. you don't get up after that lol

Jedi lose. Space marines win.
Jedi can't mind trick a space marine. They are not the weak minded. They are champions of humanity not the weakly guardsmen.
There is a big difference between a Starwars storm trooper and a Space marine

The jedi could kill one but then a bolter shell hits him from behind and a chainsword slices him in half.

True, the lightsabre is not really "deflecting" the bolt-shell, more like disintegrating it.

As far as Jedi vs Tactical Squad...

Really depends on the deployment situation. A lone Jedi is *probably* not going to do too well just walking up amongst them... but a single Jedi attacking from positions of stealth and concealment, stalking the Tac Squad, making use of various Force powers to distract and disorient, as well as enhance their own cover, is a much more formidable foe.

I think with this scenario, specifically, there's far too many variables to say, with certainty, which side is going to win.

I don't even want to think about an entire squad of marines VS a Jedi. Jedi gets shot to death or trampled under the sheer might of the marines in close combat. who cares if he chops an arm or leg off or even a head. it only takes a single punch from just 1 of those marines to break the body of a jedi. that's like taking a sledge hammer to the face with more then a thousand pounds of force behind it. you don't get up after that lol

Not all Jedi are humans. Some are made of living stone. These will simply walk through your bolter fire, as they're pretty much immune to it, and crush you under their mountain-like feet.

...and, again, Space Marines are not immune to mind control.

Jedi might only be observed deflecting energy rounds, but they are known to have potent telekinetic abilities. Bolter rounds have mass, they can be manipulated by those able to manipulate mass. Deflecting their course, destroying them, making barriers that activate their detonation and deflect the ensuing shrapnel.

I'm no SW fanatic, but I do think that a Jedi has like 70% of SM's at a serious disadvantage; something like a fair fight might be on the cards in the case of characters, and if a lascannon is an actual LOS insta-hit then a bit of decoy-and-snipe tactica could claim an impressive bodycount by vaping Jedi before they even know the attack's incoming...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:a single Jedi attacking from positions of stealth and concealment, stalking the Tac Squad, making use of various Force powers to distract and disorient, as well as enhance their own cover, is a much more formidable foe.

I think a tac squad with a Lascannon and experience of fighting Eldar could very well turn the tables on such trickery.

lindsay40k wrote:

Lash of Submission? SM's spend decades being trained to resist Chaos, and yet if they have no Psychic Hood wielders to hand then they have a 100% failure rate in resisting mind control by Slaaneshi practitioners. SMs have no specific training in resisting Jedi powers.

Since Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak minded, my interpretation is that their dedication to the Emperor would at least allow them to resist any 'kill your battle brothers' commands.

More importantly, if Jedi can just use a 'kill your allies' command, why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda use it when they were trying to get back in to the Jedi temple? You can't tell me that clone troopers are somehow more resistant to psychic manipulation than a Marine.

Besides, let's note that Lash of Submission is something used by daemon princes. Daemon princes are practically walking demi-gods. They are far, FAR more powerful than simple 'practitioners of Chaos'. I don't think your average Jedi is going to have the same power as a daemon prince.

Maybe. Eldar do win against the SM, sometimes, too. Also, a Lascannon has a very low ammo capacity (only 5 shots in the DH RPG, and cannot use a backpack ammo supply), and requires set-up time, since it's normally a crew-served weapon. Hopefully, it's pointed in the right direction when the Jedi is noticed, and not, say, the opposite direction when he seems to meld out of thin air and cut it in half before disappearing once more.

If there were, say, a Falleen or Anzati Jedi stalking the Space Marines... well, in the Anzati's case, he/she can *also* eat the brains of the victim (they call this "soup", and have specialized organs for drawing the brain out of the victim's nose or ears) and gain their knowledge and memories... not to mention other vampire-like powers and weirdness.

So... Anzati Jedi stalks Space Marines, gets the drop on one, kills him and eats his brain. Anzati Jedi now has that Marine's understanding of the Codex Astartes, as well as his personal knowledge of vox-channels, call-signs, tactical doctrine, etc etc. At least for awhile. There's a whole lotta mischief you can do with that kind of knowledge!

Fortunately, Anzati Jedi are *extremely* rare. As in, one in the past several thousand years.

Again, I think this (Jedi vs SM) is a battle with too many variables to immediately declare a winner, because there's so *many* ways the battle could go.

Since Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak minded

No, they work *best* on the weak-minded. Only a few races are immune, everyone else either trains, specifically, to resist, or simply has a strong enough willpower to resist, or has the SW version of a psy-blocker on.

More importantly, if Jedi can just use a 'kill your allies' command, why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda use it when they were trying to get back in to the Jedi temple? You can't tell me that clone troopers are somehow more resistant to psychic manipulation than a Marine.

Cause it's a movie, and Lucas chose not to write it that way.

Exterminatus. Done.

Psienesis wrote:
Cause it's a movie, and Lucas chose not to write it that way.

That's not an argument against. It's like saying that the lightsabre can suddenly grow to 5 miles long, and we never saw it in the movie 'just cause'.

Technically, one could build a lightsabre to do that, but it would be unwieldy, so they don't. There are many forms of lightsabre-like weapons, including the familiar sword, tonfa, staves, daggers, reverse-grip swords (shoto) and whips, or combinations of these (like Asajj Ventris' swords, that can link together at the pommels to form a staff, as did those of Darth Maul.). Lightsabres can be further built to offer various advantages against certain kinds of enemy or in certain situations (like being underwater)... but we're not often going to see these situations in film, because it's really not that big a deal unless very specific to the plot.

The thing is that Space Marines, apart from the differences set down by their various Chapters, are all pretty much the same. Tactical Marines act a certain way, Assault Marines another, Devastator yet another way... but, when you have a Space Marine of a known type, you pretty much know what you're getting.

Jedi aren't as... template-based. No two Jedi are identical, and can have wildly varying powers, on top of whatever special traits they may have based on their species. Also, just because some Jedi have the ability to force someone to shoot themselves, or strangle someone through the Force, or shoot lightning, or shut down machines, or teleport, or whatever, doesn't mean they all can do this. It's quite possible that neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda had the ability to force this action, as Yoda is more of a seer/telekine and Obi-Wan is more of a soldier (especially in the prequel trilogy), using the Force to be stronger, faster, tougher than a normal human. He is a pretty powerful telepath, though, as they often refer to his many uses of these powers, but they also often don't work... generally because he's using them on species who are immune.

Psienesis wrote:Maybe. Eldar do win against the SM, sometimes, too. Also, a Lascannon has a very low ammo capacity (only 5 shots in the DH RPG, and cannot use a backpack ammo supply), and requires set-up time, since it's normally a crew-served weapon. Hopefully, it's pointed in the right direction when the Jedi is noticed, and not, say, the opposite direction when he seems to meld out of thin air and cut it in half before disappearing once more.

If there were, say, a Falleen or Anzati Jedi stalking the Space Marines... well, in the Anzati's case, he/she can *also* eat the brains of the victim (they call this "soup", and have specialized organs for drawing the brain out of the victim's nose or ears) and gain their knowledge and memories... not to mention other vampire-like powers and weirdness.

So... Anzati Jedi stalks Space Marines, gets the drop on one, kills him and eats his brain. Anzati Jedi now has that Marine's understanding of the Codex Astartes, as well as his personal knowledge of vox-channels, call-signs, tactical doctrine, etc etc. At least for awhile. There's a whole lotta mischief you can do with that kind of knowledge!

Fortunately, Anzati Jedi are *extremely* rare. As in, one in the past several thousand years.

Again, I think this (Jedi vs SM) is a battle with too many variables to immediately declare a winner, because there's so *many* ways the battle could go.

Since Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak minded

No, they work *best* on the weak-minded. Only a few races are immune, everyone else either trains, specifically, to resist, or simply has a strong enough willpower to resist, or has the SW version of a psy-blocker on.

More importantly, if Jedi can just use a 'kill your allies' command, why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda use it when they were trying to get back in to the Jedi temple? You can't tell me that clone troopers are somehow more resistant to psychic manipulation than a Marine.

Cause it's a movie, and Lucas chose not to write it that way.

Jedi mindtricks ONLY work on the weak-minded. they say as much. I don't remember if it's Episode 1 or 4, but they say exactly that. ONLY on the weak-minded. So I extremely doubt this could be done to a Space Marine.

Space Marines can also eat the flesh of their enemies, and learn/gain memories from them. Current Codex: Space Marines.

So basically, this question is unanswerable because it all depends on what Jedi we're fighting.

Jedi mindtricks ONLY work on the weak-minded. they say as much. I don't remember if it's Episode 1 or 4, but they say exactly that. ONLY on the weak-minded. So I extremely doubt this could be done to a Space Marine.

They work best on the weak-minded. It's demonstrated in several other sources that one can be susceptible to it if caught off-guard, not expecting it, or are of a weaker mind than the Jedi using the power. In the latter case... well, we're back to my point that Jedi are too heavily invested as individuals, rather than an army-type, to be able to judge.

Incidentally, if you'd want to rank canonicity of film-content, the order goes: Ep 4 (ANH), Ep5 (ESB), Ep6 (RotJ), Ep1 (TPM), Ep2 (AotC), Ep3 (RotS). Basically, the order in which they were filmed sets their order within the "A-Canon" classification of SW lore.

In Ep4 , Obi-Wan tells Luke:

"The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded."

This doesn't say that only the weak-minded are affected by the Force, it simply states that the weak-minded can be strongly influenced by the Force. A strong mind might be slightly (or perhaps moderately, or more, or less) influenced by the Force... or not at all.


But, yes, as I've been saying for several pages now, there's far too many variables in this battle to say, with any certainty, who would win. It very, very much depends on how many SM are involved, their weapon load-out, and whether they're attacking, defending, patrolling, aware of the Jedi presence, and so forth. By the same token, it depends on number of Jedi present, individual Jedi strength, what powers they know, and if they are attacking, defending, stalking, etc.

Not all chapters follow the codex, my chapters fluff has each indiviual marine comes up with his own tactics, which leads to huge differences between each angel prince.
But there is something called an auspex and last time i check the jedi do not have cloaking technology.
ELDAR DO. The eldar do have cloaks they shield their presence with pyschic abilities thats why its so hard to detect them. The Space marines have squad updates in their helmets their helmets are very useful. (Thats why i put helmets on all my guys because what idiot takes off their only way to communicate and monitor their motion detectors and danger warnings?

Space Marine armor would immedately detect a plasma sword, That is what theoritically a light saber is, it basically at the tip of the sword has a deflector that deflects the so called *energy* back to the handle.

Which means the jedi is screwed vs an entire tactical squad hell a scout squad would even kick their ass.

It matters what the marines have. Of course the basic equipment for a space marine is a bolter, but sometimes they take different weapons so if it was based on fluff then they all get shotguns + bolter attachment. (Yeah it can happen)

I really can't see a jedi being able to successfully defeat an entire space marine squad because the battle brothers know one thing... "DO NOT SPLIT UP, SPLITTING UP = YOU DIE!"

This is a Warhammer 40k Forum. Therefore, Space Marines win.

But there is something called an auspex and last time i check the jedi do not have cloaking technology.

They do. In several forms. There's even a Force power that renders you utterly invisible to any form of artificial sense. Basically, you become invisible to droids, scanners, sensors, cameras, etc.

Space Marine armor would immedately detect a plasma sword, That is what theoritically a light saber is, it basically at the tip of the sword has a deflector that deflects the so called *energy* back to the handle.

No, that's not how lightsabres work. The blade is a plasma-like laser that loops back on itself because of a sort of magnet in the handle, not a deflector at the tip of the blade. The sword is, at once, perfectly cylindrical, and yet, bearing an edge in every possible direction. Because of this "loop back", a lightsabre never actually drains any of its power cell, other than at its instance of activation and while forcing it through something.

Auspex... well, as we've seen in numerous SM scenarios, auspex isn't really all that reliable, and is often fooled by planetary flora, local fauna, radiation, a brisk wind, or because the machine-spirit is having a snit.

Shotguns?

Sure. My Jedi are wearing their GAR battlearmor, reinforced with cortosis weave. This makes them las-proof *and* lightsabre proof, while also providing superior protection to most solid ammunition payloads. Armor piercing rounds are still effective... but shotguns arent known to carry AP rounds.

A single Jedi vs an entire squad? Maybe. A single squad vs an equal number of Jedi? Much, much less likely.

Scout Squad? Mm... no. No Power Armor, just carapace, no auspex, and the Jedi can hear their minds.

Psienesis wrote:

But there is something called an auspex and last time i check the jedi do not have cloaking technology.

They do. In several forms. There's even a Force power that renders you utterly invisible to any form of artificial sense. Basically, you become invisible to droids, scanners, sensors, cameras, etc.

Space Marine armor would immedately detect a plasma sword, That is what theoritically a light saber is, it basically at the tip of the sword has a deflector that deflects the so called *energy* back to the handle.

No, that's not how lightsabres work. The blade is a plasma-like laser that loops back on itself because of a sort of magnet in the handle, not a deflector at the tip of the blade. The sword is, at once, perfectly cylindrical, and yet, bearing an edge in every possible direction. Because of this "loop back", a lightsabre never actually drains any of its power cell, other than at its instance of activation and while forcing it through something.

Auspex... well, as we've seen in numerous SM scenarios, auspex isn't really all that reliable, and is often fooled by planetary flora, local fauna, radiation, a brisk wind, or because the machine-spirit is having a snit.

Shotguns?

Sure. My Jedi are wearing their GAR battlearmor, reinforced with cortosis weave. This makes them las-proof *and* lightsabre proof, while also providing superior protection to most solid ammunition payloads. Armor piercing rounds are still effective... but shotguns arent known to carry AP rounds.

A single Jedi vs an entire squad? Maybe. A single squad vs an equal number of Jedi? Much, much less likely.

Scout Squad? Mm... no. No Power Armor, just carapace, no auspex, and the Jedi can hear their minds.

Sadly i disagree a chainsword has adamantium and we do not know what a solid slug round and a EXPLOSIVE round would do to the battle armor of a clone.

Sadly i disagree a chainsword has adamantium and we do not know what a solid slug round and a EXPLOSIVE round would do to the battle armor of a clone

Doesn't matter, really, since the cortosis weave makes it immune to a lightsabre (and, by extension, a power sword). The chainsword is just going to throw sparks off it and squeal.

The explosive round of a boltgun is mass-reactive. It only blows up after it's inside someone/something.

From my personal combat experience, a shotgun is a pisspoor weapon of choice, slug or shot, unless you're fighting door to door in an urban environment. It lacks range and rate of fire and has gimpy holding capacity, unless drum or box-fed... they're also absolutely heavy as hell. The latter not much of a concern to SM, obviously.

I can tell you that a solid shotgun slug doesn't do gak against military hard armor.

Psienesis wrote:

Sadly i disagree a chainsword has adamantium and we do not know what a solid slug round and a EXPLOSIVE round would do to the battle armor of a clone

Doesn't matter, really, since the cortosis weave makes it immune to a lightsabre (and, by extension, a power sword). The chainsword is just going to throw sparks off it and squeal.

The explosive round of a boltgun is mass-reactive. It only blows up after it's inside someone/something.

From my personal combat experience, a shotgun is a pisspoor weapon of choice, slug or shot, unless you're fighting door to door in an urban environment. It lacks range and rate of fire and has gimpy holding capacity, unless drum or box-fed... they're also absolutely heavy as hell. The latter not much of a concern to SM, obviously.

I can tell you that a solid shotgun slug doesn't do gak against military hard armor.

So your saying that a chainsword made from a material that doesn't exist in the starwars universe cannot cut through a material for that all we know could be considered paper compared to adamantium? And the fact that Ceramite might be considered to be more protective? YOU DO NOT KNOW!
Ceramite by nature is heat resistant! For all we know their plasma or light or what ever could be considered a lasgun saber for all we know! The fact is we will never know!

And if it is a squad of marines vs a squad of 4 jedi. I'm sorry but the jedi lose. The jedi would be slaughtered as the head shots would give them concussions and there ya go the space marines rip them limb from limb with their bare hands.
NOW IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT Starkiller, Then Starkiller wins except if he is facing a Chief Librarian, The Chief Librarian would just flick his finger and Starkiller would explode into thousands of pieces.

Avatar 720 wrote:Exterminatus. Done.

I like this....

"Lord there appears to be a cloth clad warrior with a shiny sword staring at us ... menacingly.... orders?"

"1 barrage of vortex missiles ought to do it."

"Right away sir!"

Pretty sure a Librarian is on equal footing with the average Jedi. A full squad of Space Marines can probably take a single Jedi, although some of them, (one of the ones people actually know and care about) could probably take on a Space Marine squad. I think there might be lots more Space Marines then there are Jedi though, so if the two groups went head to head, I think the Space Marines will probably come out ahead.

Psienesis wrote:
Doesn't matter, really, since the cortosis weave makes it immune to a lightsabre (and, by extension, a power sword). The chainsword is just going to throw sparks off it and squeal.

1) We know nothing about cortosis, only that it's resistant against lightsabres. However, a chainsword is NOT a lightsabre, and is in fact a physical weapon. Just like a bullet proof vest won't stop a knife, the cortosis won't necessarily stop the physical chainsword blade, or even the physical blade of the power sword.

Even if the cortosis armor resist the physical blade, the sheer momentum of being struck with an object being swung by a superhuman is going to hurt.

The explosive round of a boltgun is mass-reactive. It only blows up after it's inside someone/something.

It's designed to do so, but that doesn't mean it can't explode if its outside the target, or if the shot misses.

From my personal combat experience, a shotgun is a pisspoor weapon of choice, slug or shot, unless you're fighting door to door in an urban environment. It lacks range and rate of fire and has gimpy holding capacity, unless drum or box-fed... they're also absolutely heavy as hell. The latter not much of a concern to SM, obviously.

I can tell you that a solid shotgun slug doesn't do gak against military hard armor.

Only Jedi don't wear heavy armor. Even on the front lines of the Clone Wars, they seemed to prefer the mobility granted by their robes than to wear heavy plate armor. Besides, against a Jedi I can see one great argument for using buckshot.

THere is no way in hell he can block ALL the pellets.

Besides, against a Jedi I can see one great argument for using buckshot. THere is no way in hell he can block ALL the pellets.

In fact this is the way to kill jedi in the RPG. that and things that go boom. So squad of SM goes up against a jedi, throws frags, and that's all she wrote but many special weapons marines get on a regular basis would decimate the Jedi. Flamers, melta, shotguns, massed bolterfire and grenades. Bar the shotgun, my GH can get all of those in a full squad. The flamer douses an area with holy promethium, the rest of the squad throws frags/rapid fires into the area the jedi was, and the Meltaguy shoots anything that tries to forcejump away.
As for light sabers, I can see powerweapon being equal to a lightsaber. Neither will cut through the other, but both will cut through just about anything else.

An interesting side note; the scale of technologies appear to be vastly different. Star Wars tech often appears far more sophisticated than the Imperium's tech, but that may not be the case. In Star Wars, it took decades of careful planning and high-tech construction to build a Death Star, a machine capable of destroying planets. But the Imperium has the same capabilty, which is more portable, capable, and far more widespread than a single space station.

Jedi from the films would get annihilated soundly. Those guys don't have much going for them except fast reactions and a laser sword.

Somehow, Jedi from non-films are physical gods capable of bending reality to their will, or somesuch. How that came to be is a mystery since none of the jedi in any of the films displays anything remotely like the non-film jedi.

DarknessEternal wrote:Jedi from the films would get annihilated soundly. Those guys don't have much going for them except fast reactions and a laser sword.

Somehow, Jedi from non-films are physical gods capable of bending reality to their will, or somesuch. How that came to be is a mystery since none of the jedi in any of the films displays anything remotely like the non-film jedi.

As I understand, Star Wars has the same 'The Magic Goes Away' trope alot of fantasy series do.

In the past (thousands of years before the movies) the Jedi were apparently much more powerful as there are stories of lone Jedi defeating whole armies by themselves, and whole world being won or lost by one side having a Jedi/Sith leading them, and the other side not.

How about 1000 Evesor assassins vs 1000 jedi?

That could be fun, and bloody.

Alright, but the answers are in the tabletop versions of either game, and before you start yelling fluff at me, hear me out. RPGs are the tools by which we quantify fluff.

If you port a jedi into 40k, he'd be considered a psyker with a force weapon. Lets be generous and say that between his supernatural dexterity, precognition, defensive properties of his weapon of choice, and intense training, a jedi might earn a 2+ invul save. It would certainly account for the significant number of deflected shots in the crap-tastic prequel films; but since they always die from the shot that slips through, we'll say 1 wound. The jedi is probably a match for 3 space marines. If we throw in some psyker powers, it can maybe handle a 5 man squad.

Now, if we bring a space marine into the star wars universe... the accounting changes significantly. Far stronger and tougher than humans; armed with weapons that don't just sizzle harmlessly off of walls and doors, grenades that put thermal detonators to shame, and the fortitude to withstand a number of wounds lethal to a standard mortal man. A single space marine in the soft, fluffy, gentle world of star wars could probably go on a rampage through a jedi temple and mow down faceless extras left and right. Resistant to their mind affecting bs and armed to the teeth, he'd probably find lightsabers to be an annoyance, as his exploding shells knock the glowing sticks across the room with the weilder's hands still attached.

In the SW Saga tabletop RPG, space marine wouldn't just be a racial choice with a few +2s here and there, it would likely be a template that was worth multiple character levels. In the SWRPG, if you want to earn Jedi-knighthood you need to be around 7th character level. If you wanted to be the equivalent of a space marine, the amount of feats you'd need to take would probably take about 9 character levels just to be a neophyte; all soldier levels to get the weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies, physical resistances, saving throw increases, and combat maneuvers that the average space marine demonstrates in most of the stories featuring space marines, higher if they're a named character with some valiant history of insane heroism.

Assuming we were on an even playing field, a single space marine, built in the SW RPG universe, would have no problem dispatching at least 2 or 3 jedi knights before taking enough damage to die.

Now, once we bring jedi-masters into it, we have to determine whether or not force powers and psyker powers are interchangeable, because it might be more reasonable to compare one to a librarian.