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junk wrote:

Now, if we bring a space marine into the star wars universe... the accounting changes significantly. Far stronger and tougher than humans; armed with weapons that don't just sizzle harmlessly off of walls and doors, grenades that put thermal detonators to shame, and the fortitude to withstand a number of wounds lethal to a standard mortal man. A single space marine in the soft, fluffy, gentle world of star wars could probably go on a rampage through a jedi temple and mow down faceless extras left and right. Resistant to their mind affecting bs and armed to the teeth, he'd probably find lightsabers to be an annoyance, as his exploding shells knock the glowing sticks across the room with the weilder's hands still attached.

What.

Thermal detonators atomize anything in their blast radius.

A single Space Marine could not plow through an entire Jedi temple.

And bolt shells would not transfer enough kinetic energy to the lightsaber or the weilder's hands to rip the hands off of a Jedi.

RE: Exterminatus - OTOH its an energy based weapon that one-shots a planet, and can be used more often than most 40k starship weapons. I dont' believe the IOM has that.
edited due to post lag time making the above make no sense

CoI wrote:OTOH its an energy based weapon that one-shots a planet, and can be used more often than most 40k starship weapons. I dont' believe the IOM has that.

The original Death Star's superlaser took a full day to recharge, and couldn't be aimed at anything smaller than a planet.

The second death star could recharge ship destroying shots faster, but it still took longer to recharge to planet killing levels.

Nerivant wrote:

junk wrote:

Now, if we bring a space marine into the star wars universe... the accounting changes significantly. Far stronger and tougher than humans; armed with weapons that don't just sizzle harmlessly off of walls and doors, grenades that put thermal detonators to shame, and the fortitude to withstand a number of wounds lethal to a standard mortal man. A single space marine in the soft, fluffy, gentle world of star wars could probably go on a rampage through a jedi temple and mow down faceless extras left and right. Resistant to their mind affecting bs and armed to the teeth, he'd probably find lightsabers to be an annoyance, as his exploding shells knock the glowing sticks across the room with the weilder's hands still attached.

What.

Thermal detonators atomize anything in their blast radius.

A single Space Marine could not plow through an entire Jedi temple.

And bolt shells would not transfer enough kinetic energy to the lightsaber or the weilder's hands to rip the hands off of a Jedi.

Krak grenades pull matter in and frag grenades push matter out.
Bolters use the same feature.
Thermal detonators are based heat because thermal = air so technically detonating the air which theoritically is possible but its not as bad as sucking in air.
And seeing their effect knigts of the old republic they aren't that powerful.

Asherian Command wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

junk wrote:

Now, if we bring a space marine into the star wars universe... the accounting changes significantly. Far stronger and tougher than humans; armed with weapons that don't just sizzle harmlessly off of walls and doors, grenades that put thermal detonators to shame, and the fortitude to withstand a number of wounds lethal to a standard mortal man. A single space marine in the soft, fluffy, gentle world of star wars could probably go on a rampage through a jedi temple and mow down faceless extras left and right. Resistant to their mind affecting bs and armed to the teeth, he'd probably find lightsabers to be an annoyance, as his exploding shells knock the glowing sticks across the room with the weilder's hands still attached.

What.

Thermal detonators atomize anything in their blast radius.

A single Space Marine could not plow through an entire Jedi temple.

And bolt shells would not transfer enough kinetic energy to the lightsaber or the weilder's hands to rip the hands off of a Jedi.

Krak grenades pull matter in and frag grenades push matter out.
Bolters use the same feature.
Thermal detonators are based heat because thermal = air so technically detonating the air which theoritically is possible but its not as bad as sucking in air.
And seeing their effect knigts of the old republic they aren't that powerful.

"Thermal" is not describing the explosion, but the process by which the weapon explodes. The actual explosion is an expanding field that atomizes material within it.

And please tell me you did not just use the KoToR stats to "prove" that thermal detonators are weaker than frag grenades.

Thermal detonators are pretty much meltabombs aren't they? or at least the effect is about the same. Turns everything in a small area into molten slag? I'll admit, my Star wars knowledge is lacking as I haven't really paid attention to anything made in the last 10 years or so, bar a few games

purplefood wrote:Since we don't know quite how jedi force powers work we don't know whether a Librarian would be their equal in power or not.
As it is the battle would be incredibly bloody but i'd say 2/3 chapters (full strength codex sixed) would be fair maybe another chapter or so depending on which time peroid.

When Librarians start pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky (i.e. something larger than many 40k cruisers), then we know.

For all of you fan-boys out here: BE JEALOUS!!!!

Brother Coa wrote:For all of you fan-boys out here: BE JEALOUS!!!!

Whoever picked Haydenakin to represent Star Wars deserves a face full of blaster fire.

Also, Shepard should have kept the Revenant at home and done the thing with a single Widow shot.

I think the question is less 'who would win one-on-one' but more 'if there were a Jedi vs Astartes campaign, what sort of numbers would each side need for it to be a fair fight?'

Not having a massive familiarity with SW outside of having seen the films a few times and played some of the nintendo games, I don't really feel qualified to say much. It does seem to me like the Jedi footsoldiers in ep2 would have been annihilated by outnumbering opponents firing bolter rounds on full auto, but as I understand it there's much 'historical era' context on either side; are we talking ep1 or golden age Jedi, M41 Chapters or pre-heresy Legions led by Primarchs, or what? I can't see Yoda lasting long against a Magnus/Ahriman tag-team...

I suppose the good old Jedy would classify as delta or lower level psykers (except for some of them, who would MAYBE, and I say MAYBE, reach beta level), as the fluff gives alpha levels telekines as fully capable of tearing a warlord titan in two (while a powerful pre-imperial jedy (read: Yoda) struggles to hoist a tank weighting a few tons at best...), while even a beta telepath is able to completely mind-control entire hives. In addition, even low-ish level psykers are fully capable of destroying opponent's minds from half a planet away (seen in almost every single BL book...), while Jedy's seem to possess no such powers (but I may be mistaken...).
I believe light-sabres to be on par with master-crafted power swords, as full energy versions of those exists, being comparable with very good solid-bladed pws.
As for ranged weaponry, most common man-portable weapons from the Star Wars universe seem fairly weak, with common blasters being at the same level with common las-weaponry in effects (they don't seem to kill unarmored human targets when not hitting a vital point), so I suppose full-auto, spread or flame weapon should be a bad surprise for them (they don't seem to be used as much in SW), while I suppose heavy weapons of both universe would spell death for anyone anyway.

What do you think of something like this as a profile for a common, humanoid jedy knight?
ws5 bs4 s4 t3 i6 w1 a2 (or maybe 3) ld9
as for saves, I'd say a permanent 3+ cover save (to rapresent their light-sabre waving being unable to stop a flamer or something like that) and a 4+ inv. save in cc.
I'd give them a mc pw as equipment, psychic mastery 1 with something like a minor lash-like power, some psychic shooting attack (for Sith only), a power giving them a 3+ inv for the next turn and maybe something like weaken resolve or a power causing a pinning check?

Alpha level Psykers are exceedingly rare, if stupidly powerful. Are they stronger than Jedi at the absolute height of their power? Probably not if this thread is anything to go by.

Then, put in an Eversor and Jedy become Eldars with shiny power swords and no armour... admitting they don't just have a siezure for the shut down of their midiclorians (with them being psychic symbiotic creatures). Now you just have to fit an Eversor assassin in a power armour. Anyway, has a blank ever been inducted in a sm chapter/legion?

Now you're screwing with the conditions. An Eversor is not a marine, and blanks have not been inducted into the Space Marines before.

Maniac_nmt wrote:
When Librarians start pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky (i.e. something larger than many 40k cruisers), then we know.

A Star Detroyer is a mile long.
An Imperial Navy Cobra class destroyer (the smallest, weakest escort in the Imperial Navy) is a mile long.
MOst Imperial Navy cruisers are 5-6 miles long.
An Imperial Navy battleship is 12 miles long.

Star Destroyers are much, MUCH smaller than Imperial Navy cruisers, and are in fact comparable in size to escorts.

And his point still stands.

Jedi: Lets just bug out and call it even, ok? What we talkin about this for?

SM: I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Now you're screwing with the conditions

But it's more fun this way!

iproxtaco wrote:And his point still stands.

If you get to use Jedi powerful enough to pull cap ships down from orbit, then the Marines get to use people like Marneus Calgar and so on. This isn't about combat between exceptional individual Jedi, it's between bog standard Jedi, and bog standard Space marines.

Maniac_nmt wrote:

purplefood wrote:Since we don't know quite how jedi force powers work we don't know whether a Librarian would be their equal in power or not.
As it is the battle would be incredibly bloody but i'd say 2/3 chapters (full strength codex sixed) would be fair maybe another chapter or so depending on which time peroid.

When Librarians start pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky (i.e. something larger than many 40k cruisers), then we know.

StarKiller is not a relliable source for all jedi to be like
Starkiller had a ton of powers and he is the most powerful jedi. NOT ALL JEDI ARE LIKE THAT!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisWWII wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:And his point still stands.

If you get to use Jedi powerful enough to pull cap ships down from orbit, then the Marines get to use people like Marneus Calgar and so on. This isn't about combat between exceptional individual Jedi, it's between bog standard Jedi, and bog standard Space marines.

Is magnus an Alpha Level Pysker?
I know Starkiller is not an alpha level pysker probably a little bit lower.
And please read the psychic abilities. On the wiki please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Psychic#Psyker_Levels
Alpha Plus
Alpha
Beta
Gamma
Delta
Epsilon

The grades continue on down through the letters of the Greek alphabet. Grade Sigma and below are levels of "anti-psychic power". Such people are more commonly known as "psychic blanks" since they cannot be detected, manipulated or affected by psychic means and possess the pariah gene.

The psychic power the top four grades represents is immense. A high Delta level can read the minds of all the people in a good-sized town simultaneously, or crush a man to death against a wall in seconds. High-grade psykers are extremely powerful, and not to be taken lightly. Beta grade is the highest level of psychic power that a human can attain and still be considered sane.

An Alpha Plus grade psyker, however, is a being of almost grotesque power. They are described as being able to "turn a man inside-out with a glance", "snap a Battle Titan in half with a flick of the wrist", and "a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of blood lust". They are capable of destroying entire worlds - sometimes unintentionally.

Asherian Command wrote:

Maniac_nmt wrote:

purplefood wrote:Since we don't know quite how jedi force powers work we don't know whether a Librarian would be their equal in power or not.
As it is the battle would be incredibly bloody but i'd say 2/3 chapters (full strength codex sixed) would be fair maybe another chapter or so depending on which time peroid.

When Librarians start pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky (i.e. something larger than many 40k cruisers), then we know.

StarKiller is not a relliable source for all jedi to be like
Starkiller had a ton of powers and he is the most powerful jedi. NOT ALL JEDI ARE LIKE THAT!

Actually, I can come up with more. Ulic Qel-Doma, Alema Keeto, Naomi Sunrider, and Exar Kun for example (Alema mind controls an entire fleet including a group of Jedi, Kun can fly, defeats a race of super assasins, and took 1000 Jedi to beat, Qel-Doma is noted for being able to override the most powerful anti-force objects going, and Sunrider can permanantly destroy your connection to the force, even against uber jedi), . A Jedi's power is basically all in self belief. If a Jedi believes they can accomplish something, they can do it (effectively Yoda's words in ESB). Not saying invincible, but a fair site better than you give 'em credit for.

The Jedi around the time of Episodes 1-3, shouldn't take more then a whole chapter to beat as a Librarian, while not quite as spiffy, is pretty close and can ensure a nulification of some of their mind games (which should work okay on some Marine otherwise, as Marines are hypo-trained).

Maniac_nmt wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Maniac_nmt wrote:

purplefood wrote:Since we don't know quite how jedi force powers work we don't know whether a Librarian would be their equal in power or not.
As it is the battle would be incredibly bloody but i'd say 2/3 chapters (full strength codex sixed) would be fair maybe another chapter or so depending on which time peroid.

When Librarians start pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky (i.e. something larger than many 40k cruisers), then we know.

StarKiller is not a relliable source for all jedi to be like
Starkiller had a ton of powers and he is the most powerful jedi. NOT ALL JEDI ARE LIKE THAT!

Actually, I can come up with more. Ulic Qel-Doma, Alema Keeto, and Exar Kun for example (Alema mind controls an entire fleet including a group of Jedi, Kun can fly, defeats a race of super assasins, and took 1000 Jedi to beat, Qel-Doma is noted for being able to override the most powerful anti-force objects going), . A Jedi's power is basically all in self belief. If a Jedi believes they can accomplish something, they can do it (effectively Yoda's words in ESB). Not saying invincible, but a fair site better than you give 'em credit for

Except for the fact they were sith..... Not Jedi.....
JEDI NOT SITH!

Asherian Command wrote:
Is magnus an Alpha Level Pysker?
I know Starkiller is not an alpha level pysker probably a little bit lower.
And please read the psychic abilities. On the wiki please.
*snip*

What does that have to do with anything?
I'm saying that we're NOT using special Jedi like Starkiller, Yoda, etc. or using special Marines like Calgar (or Primarchs like Mangus).

And I know the psychic power levels.

Having played both miniatures games back in the 90s.....this is what I see

Librarian + vortex power + ultimate power force card = instant death on any model

jedi + uincanny dodge could roll enough 6s to dodge the radius...


So, really it depends on the dice rolls. I remember in the SW miniature war game that 6s stacked, meaning if you rolled one you rolled again and added it to your score, if you kept rolling 6s you kept adding them. Uncanny luck and uncanny dodge allowed you to reroll and dodge allowed you to dodge. There is no deflecting a black hole, but perhaps you could dodge it.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
Is magnus an Alpha Level Pysker?
I know Starkiller is not an alpha level pysker probably a little bit lower.
And please read the psychic abilities. On the wiki please.
*snip*

What does that have to do with anything?
I'm saying that we're NOT using special Jedi like Starkiller, Yoda, etc. or using special Marines like Calgar (or Primarchs like Mangus).

And I know the psychic power levels.

I was asking a question :(
but lets face it we will never know

But a jedi cant block a flamer with his light saber

Chaos space marines open a gateway to the warp.

GG.

DarkAngelz wrote:But a jedi cant block a flamer with his light saber

No, he just throws the burning fuel back onto the SM with the Force.

The flamer would be the least effective weapon, in my opinion.

Nerivant wrote:

DarkAngelz wrote:But a jedi cant block a flamer with his light saber

No, he just throws the burning fuel back onto the SM with the Force.

The flamer would be the least effective weapon, in my opinion.

I dunno, why wouldn't the Jedi just pull the fuel tank off the flamer with the force and let it explode in the marine's hands?

Crom wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

DarkAngelz wrote:But a jedi cant block a flamer with his light saber

No, he just throws the burning fuel back onto the SM with the Force.

The flamer would be the least effective weapon, in my opinion.

I dunno, why wouldn't the Jedi just pull the fuel tank off the flamer with the force and let it explode in the marine's hands?

He could. He could also jam bolters, and throw back grenades.