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Nerivant wrote:

Crom wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

DarkAngelz wrote:But a jedi cant block a flamer with his light saber

No, he just throws the burning fuel back onto the SM with the Force.

The flamer would be the least effective weapon, in my opinion.

I dunno, why wouldn't the Jedi just pull the fuel tank off the flamer with the force and let it explode in the marine's hands?

He could. He could also jam bolters, and throw back grenades.

I can see all that happening but what I don't think is possible, even for the Jedi Masters is to take on a whole chapter of marines. So much concentration goes into those things and the Jedi are in far more limited numbers than space marines. I think 1 vs 1 the Jedi probably has the upper hand in many cases, but all out war....I think I would lean towards the Marines. I mean for one the Jedi haven't been waging war for 10s of thousands of years, and Marines have.

I would have to say that it depends on the Jedi to settle this question. A normal Jedi Knight would be better than one or possibly a few space marines. An entire squad of 10 Space Marines would eat a Jedi alive after losing a few of their number though.

Let's put these two armies down on the ground for battle and forget starships and such (makes things easier I think). I assume a Jedi might be able to take down a rhino possibly by utilising his powers. A heavier tank would be a problem. Most jedi would propably be in trouble from bolter fire. Especially when there are several of them pointed at them. In CC I say Jedi win but marines are still not easy to take down.

5 marines for 1 jedi would be quite close to being equal I think. Assuming we forget Yoda, Mace Windu, Calgar, Lysander and such.

Had a thread like this a whiel ago. To make it a little easier i tried to make a unit entry for a Jedi. Hopefully, if we can agree on a statline for a Jedi someone can mathhammer the contest and get an answer.

To play a little devils advocate first.....You have to keep in mind that the entire Jedi Order was nearly wiped out by clone troopers, who are themselves a wimpy shadow of a Marine. A major obstacle for the Jedi woudl be the psycho-indoctrination that all marines have in training. My thought is that this would reinforce their minds and make them a lot less suseptible to mind trick, suggestion or pursuasion based Force powers.







Anyway, jedi Statline.....Here's what i came up with:


Jedi Master 120pts

WS 6
BS 3
T 4
S 3
I 5
A 3
W 1
Ld 10
Sv 5+ (4+/3+)

Wargear:
Lightsaber - the lightsaber is a weapon of legend. Utilising a coherent energy beam channeled through a focusing crystal and then projected from an emitter in the hilt, the beam itself is able to cut through all but the most dense substances. Due to this the lightsaber counts as a Relic Blade (hits with S6 and ignores armour saves)

The lightsaber is also used by the Jedi in defense. Utilising their speed a jedi is able to use the lightsaber to intercept and sometimes even deflect ranged attacks. Due to its limited length the jedi is obviously more effective in close quarters. The lightsaber provides the jedi with a 4+ Invulnerable save against ranged attacks and a 3+ in close combat.

Jedi Combat Pads - Although they do not often wear full armour, jedi in times of war have been known to wear combat armour for protection from basic attacks. This grants the Jedi a 5+ armour save.


Special Rules:

Fleet
Furious Charge
Move Through Cover
The Force- The force is found in all living things. In combat the Jedi use the force to boost their awareness of a situation as well as granting them unnatural speed & resilience. Using the Force in combat grants the Jedi 2+ I & 1+ T (all included in profile)


Options:

Saber Upgrades:
The Jedi may choose one of the following saber upgrades.

Double Bladed Saber (10 pts)-To some Jedi, one blade just is not enough. These jedi modify their saber so it projects a blade form each end of the hilt. If this is taken the Jedi may Re-roll 1 failed to-wound dice per assault phase.

Shoto (10 pts)- A Shoto is a smaller version of a lightsaber, with a smaller hilt projecting a slightly shorter blade. This gives the jedi the option of tying up an opponents weapon while leaving their main saber available to strike a killing blow. A Jedi with a Shoto gains an extra attack in cc.

Dual-Phase Saber (15 pts) - Some jedi build their sabers with a second crystal assembly within. When this second crystal is brought into line the sabers blade is extended, making the weapon much longer, although more difficult to wield. A Jedi with this type of saber is able to make a charge move of 9", although they also suffer a -1 modifer to their attacks.

Light-Whip (15 pts) - The Light-Whip is a mix of whip and lightsaber. It incorporates a mix of mono-filament lashes and lightsaber crystals to create a truly fearsome weapon. A Llightwhip grants the Jedi an extra attack in cc and wounds on a 2+.



Force Powers
The Jedi may choose 2 of the following Force powers to augment himself in combat:

Force Choke (10 pts): In the shooting phase the jedi may use the force to try and crush the windpipe of his opponent. The jedi may use this attack on one model within 12". Take a Leadership test, if passed the target immediately suffers a S6 hit (roll to wound as normal) which ignores armour saves. Note that Force choke can only be used against living targets and therefore will not affect vehicles/robots/drones etc. Also some targets are simply to massive to be felled by such an attacks. Force choke has no effect on tagets with an unmodified Toughness value of 5 or more.

Lightsaber Throw (15 pts):In the shooting phase the jedi may throw his lightsaber at his opponent, guiding it using the force. Select a single target model with 24". Each player rolls a single D6+ their intiative. If the jedi wins the target is hit with a normal lightsaber attack, if the opponent wins the lightsaber has missed and returns to the jedis hand. If the lightsaber misses the Jedi suffers a -1 modifier to his attacks that turn..

Force Lightning (10 pts):During the shooting phase the Jedi may use the force to summon lightning from his fingertips. Force lightning fires with the following profile:

Template, S4, AP-, No cover save.

Force Resiliency (10 pts):The Jedi can use the force to augment his body to supreme levels of resiliency and give himself protection against all manner of biological attacks. The Jedi may opt to use this power at the start of the first turn and it will hold for the entire game. Any poison attacks used against the jedi will wound using the normal T vs S table rather than on their special stats.

Force Pull (15 points):The Jedi uses the Force to pull a target towards himself, making it easier to strike them down. This power is used during the Shooting phase instead of any other weapon or power. Select a single non-vehicle model or IC with 18". On a successful Ld test, the jedi my "pull" the target D6" towards himself.

Shatterpoint (25 pts):The skill of Shatterpoint revolves around the force user looking at the molecular makeup of an object and finding the exact spot where the application of an exact force will destroy the target utterly. This power is used at the start of a Jedi assault phase. Choose a target with 6" (the jedi OR the target may already be in close combat). Roll a D6, on a roll of 5+ the target will suffer a -2 modifier to their armour save for the remainder of the game as their body armour is fractured beyond repair.

Force Mind Trick (20 pts):Using the force, the jedi can cloud the mind of his opponent. This power is more easily used against the weak minded, but can affect even the most battle hardened warrior if the jedi has sufficient skill. During the shooting phase, choose a target within LOS and 12", take a Leadership test, if successful roll a D6. If the roll is equal to or higher than the targets intiative, the mind trick has worked. A roll of 6 will always mean a successful mind trick. Any target that suffers a successful Mind Trick attack has their intiative reduced to 1 for the remainder of the turn and they may not shoot in their next shooting phase.

Force Throw (20 pts) - The jedi utilises the force to cause loose debris and detrius in the area to bombard his opponent. This power is used at the start of the assault phase. Pick an enemy unit with 12". Upon a successful leadership test the target unit his hit with 2D6 S3 Ap- attacks as loose rocks, battle wreckage and other debris are flung towards them in a flurry. Normal saving throws apply.

Re Jedi having 1W because they're seen to die to single rounds from las weapon equivalents.

Let's not forget a couple of things here.

40K does not represent 'critical hits' (Rending aside). Whereas in the fluff, Vindicares take out planetary leaders with single shots whilst freefalling off a building through a mesh of fire, in the game a 3W senior officer will never, ever die as a result of a Vindicare Assassin shooting him between the eyes with a single turbo-penetrator, and it'll take at least three rounds of a Heavy Bolter - a weapon that'd reduce any human to giblets in one shot - getting through his refractor field to put him down.

This is a ludological necessity to make a game full of Napoleonic frontline leaders fun to play, despite the fact that even showing officer stripes on your arm can mean headexplodey the moment a capable sniper comes within half a mile of you. This is similar to how Marines have massively toned-down statlines ingame to make an eye-pleasing collection of them have an even fight with an eye-pleasing collection of Guard; in the fluff, a Tactical Squad would probably reduce several platoons to a fine red mist before one of them had his sci-fi paint scratched. But that doesn't mean that a skilful or lucky shot to a Terminator Captain's eyepiece wouldn't pulverise his brain and kill him outright.

Given that Luke Skywalker (yes, an exceptional individual, but by the same token not fully trained) was able to make a difficult escape after losing a hand in a terrifying melee, I think it's safe to say that Jedi are not going to curl up into a ball and die every time they get clipped by lasfire, and on a 40K tabletop can safely be given a W stat appropriate for a heroic individual.

A single Jedi is no great threat.

Jango Fett with a blaster pistol was able to kill one by... Shooting at him. Whoa.

And yes, EU.

This is not "Yoda vs. a Space Marine" or "Darth Nihilus vs. a Space Marine" or anything stupid like that.

While I have no doubt a sufficiently powerful wielder of the Force, such as Nihilus, Luke Skywalker, or Galen Marek, could beat nearly any Space Marine (The only exceptions being maybe some Primarchs... Oh, and Draigo, perhaps), the average Jedi cannot mess with a Space Marine with a bolter.

To be honest, I doubt a lightsaber could reliably harm Power Armour. Ceramite is very resistant to heat, IIRC some Marines in their armour have survived Exterminatus, the atmosphere being essentially ignited.

The average Jedi can be killed by blaster fire. Let alone bolter fire.

I would say the biggest problem would be parrying a bolt round.

the first time you do that, the shell will explode and shower the jedi with Shrapnel. sure, he won't try that again, but that assumes he survives. 1 bolt round exploding might not do it, but 3 or 4 would.


a bolt round, if the Jedi wasn't careful, might be liable to explode when the Jedi used to force to redirect it again putting shrapnel into the equation(which those little Jedi robes arn't going to help against)


a Jedi, one on one, would be able to handle a space marine, but if there were multiple marines the Jedi would be in trouble. Unless the Jedi was Yoda, Anakin, Obi-wan, or Mace. They would take more force to bring them down.

The jedi would easily deflect the SM bolter and plasma weaponry, some of them are bound to hit the necks or the wiring of the SM. And if the SM would come with a rocket launcher then the Jedi would use their force powers and just return to sender. However if a librarian would come into action the Jedi wouldn't stand a chance

Jedi IIRC have difficulty deflecting solid ammunition, aka not laser blasters.

The Bolt round would just turn to molten shrapnel and would harm the Jedi, could not be deflected.

However they are known to be able to use the force to return small missiles so should be able to do the same to bolters.

Hasn't this already been debated? The Jedi can, and will deflect bolt rounds, whether it be with the force or a light saber. Said Jedi will not however be able to deflect the shots of a whole tac squad on full auto.

4M2A wrote:However they are known to be able to use the force to return small missiles so should be able to do the same to bolters.

Sure. But Jedi have limits.

How many bolts can they return to sender at the same time? 1? 2? A dozen? Sooner or later a few marines on full auto are going to get through. Maybe some shrapnel at first to hurt the Jedi and distract them with the pain, so they can't use the force as well, but once the Jedi has been distracted, a bolt will hilt them, and once that happens, the Jedi is dead.

A single Marine using full auto would overwhelm the average Jedi.

Hell, even masters can be overwhelmed by blaster fire.

Oh, and sort off-topic but, the whole "Movie Jedi are in an era weaker than the Old Republic Jedi" is a myth.

Yoda was described as the greatest threat to the Dark Side ever seen, and Sidious is confirmed by Lucas to be the strongest Sith ever.

Bolt-guns do not have a full-auto setting. They're semi-automatic. Stormbolters and Heavy Bolters, however, are fully automatic.

But, again, we return to the question of balance.

One squad vs one Jedi? Yeah, squad of SM probably wins.

One squad vs one squad of complementary Jedi? Now it gets interesting.

Oh, and sort off-topic but, the whole "Movie Jedi are in an era weaker than the Old Republic Jedi" is a myth.

Yoda was described as the greatest threat to the Dark Side ever seen, and Sidious is confirmed by Lucas to be the strongest Sith ever.

Citation, please, as this directly contradicts their A-Canon information.

Psienesis wrote:Bolt-guns do not have a full-auto setting. They're semi-automatic. Stormbolters and Heavy Bolters, however, are fully automatic.

But, again, we return to the question of balance.

One squad vs one Jedi? Yeah, squad of SM probably wins.

One squad vs one squad of complementary Jedi? Now it gets interesting.

Oh, and sort off-topic but, the whole "Movie Jedi are in an era weaker than the Old Republic Jedi" is a myth.

Yoda was described as the greatest threat to the Dark Side ever seen, and Sidious is confirmed by Lucas to be the strongest Sith ever.

Citation, please, as this directly contradicts their A-Canon information.

Bolters have multiple fire settings.

Psienesis wrote:Bolt-guns do not have a full-auto setting. They're semi-automatic. Stormbolters and Heavy Bolters, however, are fully automatic.

This seems to contradict you, saying that they are normally set for what we would call 'burst fire'.

It seems logical to conclude that bolters have the same settings most modern guns have: single shot, burst and full auto.

It depends on the jedi. If its Yoda or Mace, that company could get there arses handed to them. If its a padawan/apprentice or one of those jedi who got killed in the first 5 seconds against the emperor, than a squad could kill them.

And do bolt rounds explode on impact?

Nope. Not sure what your point is.

Boltguns of either variety ("human" or Astartes-grade) have a base maximum of 2 shots a round in the Deathwatch RPG, while the Heavy Bolter caps at 10 and the Stormbolter at... urgh, memory failing but either 4, 5 or 10... just don't remember off the top of my head, and my DW players all kit their Stormbolters out to make them garden hoses of death, so I don't know if I am recalling base stats or their modified stats.

The boltgun's 2-shots-a-round indicates two pulls of the trigger... either that or an amazingly slow rate of fire for an automatic weapon, slow like: "Bang! *three second pause* Bang!"

The Heavy Bolter spits death at an appreciable rate, being, well, a fully-automatic squad support weapon. Ten rocket-bullets a round, with the possibility to score hits with most of those rounds (assuming appropriate skill and wargear), pulps most normal targets.

The Stormbolter is sort of the happy medium, though is available only to the Astartes, and eats up ammo fairly quickly... but when you positively, absolutely need to kill every motherfething xeno in the room, accept no substitute.

Incidentally, most modern assault rifles do not have a full-auto setting. They have Safe (no shots), Semi (one trigger-pull, one shot) and Burst (one trigger pull releases 3 to 5 shots).

Though whatever you posted there is either a broken link or the company firewall I'm sitting behind doesn't allow me to view it.

Of course, in either event, it would hardly be the first time that 40K fluff is contradictory.

according to the Munitorum Manuel, Bolters have Semi-auto, 3 rounds burst, and Full-auto settings.

a Stormbolter is simply 2 bolters stuck together as a single weapon so double the rate of fire of a normal bolter.


I think bolters have a fairly high rate of fire on Full-auto. This is because the Munitorum Manuel warns guardsmen to NEVER fire a bolter on anything but semi-auto as a higher rate can rip the arm out of its socket and break bones. a single shot is enough to severly bruise your arm. Human arms are fairly durable. if bolters can break them on full-auto that has to be a very high RoF. you basically need augmetics or power armor to fire a bolter at full capacity.

Jedi wins and here is why:

A jedi can move at great speed, so as soon as the shooting starts the jedi would no longer be in that location.

The marines carry grenades, the jedi pulls all those pins on those grenades and the entire tac squad goes boom.

So to recap, Lightning speed, Force powers to pull the pin on all the SM Krak grenades, and the SM's all die.

DeathReaper wrote:Jedi wins and here is why:

A jedi can move at great speed, so as soon as the shooting starts the jedi would no longer be in that location.

The marines carry grenades, the jedi pulls all those pins on those grenades and the entire tac squad goes boom.

So to recap, Lightning speed, Force powers to pull the pin on all the SM Krak grenades, and the SM's all die.

So he's going to dodge 10 bolters on rapid fire while pulling the pins on the grenades Sounds pretty ridiculous they are fast, but I never saw a jedi move that fast in any movie especially while concentrating that hard.

iproxtaco wrote:Nope. Not sure what your point is.

So they only explode when they enter body?
Nevermind...

according to the Munitorum Manuel, Bolters have Semi-auto, 3 rounds burst, and Full-auto settings.

So, basically, we have a conflict of information in two GW-approved products, neither of which are a Codex, one of which is mocked up to be a book out of the 41st century.

This is why debates like these go on like this! The "canon" doesn't even agree with itself! Though, in this case, this is a fluff-problem, not canonical, since the Munitorum Manual is another Black Library publication (described as a "background book") and DW is an RPG published by FFG.

EDIT: Also, yes, bolt-rounds are "mass reactive", meaning their explosive payloads aren't triggered until inside of something, whether that "something" is a body or the armor-plate of a vehicle it failed to penetrate. They don't just blow up in mid-flight, if they did this would be rather wasteful of otherwise precious ammo. Theoretically, you could lightsabre/powersword a bolt-in-flight out of the air with little harmful effect.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nope. Not sure what your point is.

So they only explode when they enter body?
Nevermind...

Still not sure, but yes, that's the point of them.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nope. Not sure what your point is.

So they only explode when they enter body?
Nevermind...

Still not sure, but yes, that's the point of them.

I was thinking...
If bolter shells explodes on contact then they would explode the moment jedi lightsaber deflect them.
And then the fragments from bolter shell would wound him, maybe probably kill him.
But since that 's not the case, I would go with he can't deflect all of bolter shells fired at him...

Void__Dragon wrote:Jango Fett with a blaster pistol was able to kill one by... Shooting at him. Whoa.

Mandalorians. The blaster twirling equals of Sith and Jedi.

Psienesis wrote:Citation, please, as this directly contradicts their A-Canon information.

To be blunt, the feats largely support this as well. Sidious has lifted 2.2 kilometer long ships with the power of the Force. He drained the entire planet of Byss (I believe was its name) over time using the Force for sustenance. He could create Warpstorms, wormholes that could destroy fleets and the surfaces of planets. The only other Sith Lord who could do this type of crap using the Force was Darth Nihilus, by feats the only Sith with a realistic claim of rivaling Sidious.

But then there are statements.

Just found this quote, is apparently from page 84 of the New Essential Chronology by Dan Wallace.

""Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda were the only Jedi left in a position to do something about the disaster. Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

Oh, and the Revenge of the Sith novelization also states Sidious the strongest Sith Lord ever, though cannot recall the quote or page. That is G-Canon.

Well, as long as we're discounting the Force Unleashed video games, where a single Jedi is basically a god (they are far more subdued in movies and novels), then the average Librarian would probably hold their own against a Jedi. Of course, psychic powers in the 40K universe have a much higher upper end of the spectrum, especially once you start delving into sorcery. If we look towards the descriptions of Alpha/Alpha+ levels of psyker or the description of the Thousand Sons when they cut loose towards the end of their novel, I would think they would curb-stomp even the Force Unleashed Jedi.